Face coverings to become mandatory in shops in England (includes poll)

[Weekender]

Who says that was the real rate?

Imperial College in a government commissioned study.

 

[island]

Who says that was the real rate?

The R-number might as well be the bonus ball in tonight’s lottery.

 

[Bantamzen]

Let's hope the government will late start a mask use education. They've done everything else late!

I frankly don't think it would make a scrap of difference. I have just been to the supermarket and of the 10-15% of customers there wearing masks, most seemed to be fiddling with them, moving them up and down, one guy scratching underneath and then carrying on shopping. This is the true nature of people, they are not doing to be awkward, these are people wearing them before they are mandated, they do these things instinctively. It won't change next weekend, it wouldn't change if the government plastered TV adverts all over the place (does anyone even watch them these days, catch-up and streaming practically negates them).

As I said, it is exactly why the WHO did not advise their use in this manner. Indeed their advice is still slightly contradictory, saying that masks are not effective but should be mandated where 1m distancing cannot be achieved. Note also the caveat to encourage, not mandate. That is the WHO saying we are not the ones forcing the issue, which should tell you all you need to know.

Coronavirus disease (COVID-19): Masks

www.who.int

Non-medical, fabric masks are being used by many people in public areas, but there has been limited evidence on their effectiveness and WHO does not recommend their widespread use among the public for control of COVID-19. However, for areas of widespread transmission, with limited capacity for implementing control measures and especially in settings where physical distancing of at least 1 metre is not possible – such as on public transport, in shops or in other confined or crowded environments – WHO advises governments to encourage the general public to use non-medical fabric masks.

And as others have said, most of the studies have been using medical masks in medical, or medically controlled environments. These are not representative of their wider use, and the fact that most people will be using lower grade ones. I'm afraid the consensus remains the same, nobody really knows if they'll work at all, and even if they do the concerns that incorrect use could lead to the situation worsening will remain in scientific and medical circles.

Fudge anyone?

 

[43066]

Let's hope the government will late start a mask use education. They've done everything else late!

Well perhaps they could start by telling us what new evidence there is that contradicts the body of scientific studies, from various sources, which that have shown no conclusive evidence in favour of face coverings worn outside clinical settings. I note nobody on this thread seems to be able to cite it, either.

We can agree on one thing, the government is making a complete and utter shambles of this.

 

[jtuk]

Imperial College in a government commissioned study.

So if we take Imperial College's track record, we can move the decimal point for the real rate at least one place to the left

 

[43066]

I frankly don't think it would make a scrap of difference. I have just been to the supermarket and of the 10-15% of customers there wearing masks, most seemed to be fiddling with them, moving them up and down, one guy scratching underneath and then carrying on shopping. This is the true nature of people, they are not doing to be awkward, these are people wearing them before they are mandated, they do these things instinctively. It won't change next weekend, it wouldn't change if the government plastered TV adverts all over the place (does anyone even watch them these days, catch-up and streaming practically negates them).

As I said, it is exactly why the WHO did not advise their use in this manner. Indeed their advice is still slightly contradictory, saying that masks are not effective but should be mandated where 1m distancing cannot be achieved. Note also the caveat to encourage, not mandate. That is the WHO saying we are not the ones forcing the issue, which should tell you all you need to know.

Coronavirus disease (COVID-19): Masks

www.who.int

And as others have said, most of the studies have been using medical masks in medical, or medically controlled environments. These are not representative of their wider use, and the fact that most people will be using lower grade ones. I'm afraid the consensus remains the same, nobody really knows if they'll work at all, and even if they do the concerns that incorrect use could lead to the situation worsening will remain in scientific and medical circles.

Fudge anyone?

More FUBAR, than fudge!

 

[MikeWM]

Well perhaps they could start by telling us what new evidence there is that contradicts the body of scientific studies, from various sources, which that have shown no conclusive evidence in favour of face coverings worn outside clinical settings. I note nobody on this thread seems to be able to cite it, either.

But the President of the Royal Society says so! Except that *their own study* says no such thing...

This is a very serious issue. We're abusing the scientific process for political aims, and scientists are going along with it. It's a very dangerous path.

 

[Bantamzen]

More FUBAR, than fudge!

True, true. Mmmmmmmm, fudge..... <drool> Damnit, I could have bought some at the supermarket! Oh well wine it is, that is to say essential, social distanced, mask wearing wine, you know just in case the covid-Police are watching....

 

[bramling]

I frankly don't think it would make a scrap of difference. I have just been to the supermarket and of the 10-15% of customers there wearing masks, most seemed to be fiddling with them, moving them up and down, one guy scratching underneath and then carrying on shopping. This is the true nature of people, they are not doing to be awkward, these are people wearing them before they are mandated, they do these things instinctively. It won't change next weekend, it wouldn't change if the government plastered TV adverts all over the place (does anyone even watch them these days, catch-up and streaming practically negates them).

As I said, it is exactly why the WHO did not advise their use in this manner. Indeed their advice is still slightly contradictory, saying that masks are not effective but should be mandated where 1m distancing cannot be achieved. Note also the caveat to encourage, not mandate. That is the WHO saying we are not the ones forcing the issue, which should tell you all you need to know.

People are hard-wired to fiddle with their face, it's natural. Just like people pick spots, despite being told a million times it's absolutely the wrong thing to do.

 

[duncanp]

"Mask Rage" has started happening already, as militant maskivists jackboot their way around public places thinkng they have a divine right to interpret the law as they see fit.

How ‘mask rage’ ruined my trip to the National Gallery

When our Head of Culture returned at last to Britain’s flagship gallery, she stumbled into the latest front in the culture wars – masks

www.telegraph.co.uk

I went to the National Gallery on the first day I could after it had re-opened earlier this month, eager for artistic sustenance after the months of Covid-induced famine. I took Constance, my nine-year-old daughter, thinking now was the prime opportunity to introduce her to the joys of Rembrandt et al without tourist crowds in the way. Upon our arrival there was a short socially-distanced queue, and hand sanitisers at optimal points in the entrance hall – they were well prepared.
At first, I thought I’d made the right decision. Our greatest temple of art had barely another human wandering its halls. The security guards and other staff were delightfully welcoming, but in no way obscured the Holbeins and Caravaggios. We indeed had the Rembrandt room entirely to ourselves, and I could loudly propound my theory about Francis Bacon’s influence on the great Dutchman to my foxed offspring. She was more responsive to the idea that a painting becomes beautiful by way of the truth of its observation, not because of any surface symmetry.


But everything went wrong in front of Titian’s poesies. A tall, skinny, crow-like man wearing a black mask that seemed to cover most of his head lurched well within two metres of our periphery just as we’d sat down on a bench.
“Is there a reason for that?” he spat (into his mask).
I thought he had a problem with us sitting down. “How do you mean?” I asked.
“Masks!” he growled.
Constance and I weren’t wearing them. I’d checked with the guard on arrival, and she’d said that it was optional, if “encouraged”. I conveyed this to the man, who had no riposte and stalked off to glare at us from Perseus and Andromeda.
But the damage was done. “Why was the man so cross?” asked Constance in front of the Tintorettos. “That man was really quite nasty wasn’t he?” she said as we peered at a De Hooch. I said some people just start off the day with a bit of horrid to get out, and the mask thing was only an excuse. “Do you think the man might be cheered up by a yo-yo?” she asked in the shop. We bought a yo-yo – to cheer up Constance.

The fact is that the febrile atmosphere created by this new national anxiety – should you or shouldn’t you wear a mask? – is not in the tiniest bit conducive to artistic contemplation. I’ve witnessed mask rage in other contexts (public transport, shops) but this incident was much more of a jolt to my state of mind.
Perhaps it sounds like a first-world problem. The threat of dying by Covid should obviously take precedence over any self-indulgent desire to think about beauty, meaning and how past geniuses saw the world (although aren’t these crucial to life, too?). But the two-metre rule was easy to observe during our visit. The rooms of paintings were simply thrilling to see, and easier to enjoy than during any other point in my lifetime, but the masked vigilante scared my child so much he ended our fun right there.
It seems that galleries, then, are another place where there needs not only to be super-clear rules (and apparently, at the moment, some institutions are choosing to make masks compulsory, others not) but also a deliberate allaying of fears. If entry numbers are so restricted that the two-metre rule is easily enforced, as was the case on the day we visited, then there’s no need for people to breathe into a stuffy piece of cloth and steam up their glasses (a particular problem for the consumption of visual art) while they’re there.
It should be said the National Gallery’s advice – wear a mask if you like – is eminently sane. It’s just that people aren’t. It apparently also needs to be explained that standing in front of Renaissance art does not increase your susceptibility to disease. And that two metres in an (enormous, air-conditioned) inside space is the same distance as on the outside – perhaps crow-man could have remembered to better respect this himself when snarling into other people’s faces.
But, most importantly, there needs to be a clarification that returning to doing the nice things we were able to do before the advent of coronavirus should not be understood as taking up an invitation to a conflict session. The joy that art brings has to be allowed to win out over irrational paranoia.

 

[alex397]

"Mask Rage" has started happening already, as militant maskivists jackboot their way around public places thinkng they have a divine right to interpret the law as they see fit.

How ‘mask rage’ ruined my trip to the National Gallery

When our Head of Culture returned at last to Britain’s flagship gallery, she stumbled into the latest front in the culture wars – masks

www.telegraph.co.uk

That’s certainly not a good thing, it is worrrying. However I doubt those sorts of people will ever become more than a small minority. It would be sensationalist to think so.

 

[duncanp]

Whatever you might think about masks, the point is that they are not mandatory in indoor public spaces such as the National Gallery (yet) and the law provides for some exceptions.

No-one has any right to question someone as to why they are not wearing a mask, it is for the owner of a shop/gallery etc. to enforce the rules as they see fit.

Perhaps someone should set up a Manners For Maskivists course on line

 

[bramling]

That’s certainly not a good thing, it is worrrying. However I doubt those sorts of people will ever become more than a small minority. It would be sensationalist to think so.

Utterly disgraceful, and - as you rightly say - worrying. Some of the vigilantism seem through all this is cause for concern, and likewise the fact Boris and company have consistently done absolutely nothing to address such issues. In fact, their lack of action almost intimates that they're quite enjoying seeing it happen, perhaps this fits in with Cumming's anarchist desires?!

 

[Scrotnig]

It's precisely this sort of behaviour that mean people like me will basically not be able to go out - at least not to shops etc.

 

[Controller1701]

So if the following were set out by our glorious and esteemed prime minister that would satisfy those of the people who are requiring a set out procedure of review dates and conditions to remove all restrictions.

with a set review date = Every day
conditions published that would result in the lifting of the regulation = Confirmed TOTAL number of death certificates issued with COVID shown on them as a negative figure.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I haven't gone back to read the whole thread, so the following, much more detailed and more recent, report produced by The Royal Society and The British Academy may be of interest. Apologies if someone has already linked to it.

A lot of the numbers I see being bandied about by the press and government are taken from it - or the source research linked therein.

It is long, it is comprehensive covering many (all) aspects surrounding face coverings.

Readers attention is drawn to;
box one on page 5 (types of covering)
paragraph 2.7 on page 9 and the accompanying table (effectiveness of various materials).

It contains a table of countries and the measures they have taken around face coverings.

There is an interesting reference to one study covering eye and nose/mouth covering.

Happy reading.

PS document downloaded today but I lost the direct link - that's the problem of automatically deleting your viewing history etc. when you exit your browser.

 

[birchesgreen]

Anyway i did a test run of wearing a mask at the shops today and didn't die. Still only about 10% wearing masks though.

 

[adc82140]

I've said it a lot of times on here, but just to reiterate, no one, other than an authorised person (ie a police officer) has the right to question why you are not wearing a face cover. Do not even engage the other person in conversation. They will be the one looking like a crazy person if they are ranting and raving all on their own.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I will ignore the * except to say a covering by definition does non intrude into the body so that is the wrong word.

Have you asked gov.uk for the changes in evidence that changed their decision? I do not think we have any gov.uk health advisers on here.

Yes, no response to date.

 

[MikeWM]

I haven't gone back to read the whole thread, so the following, much more detailed and more recent, report produced by The Royal Society and The British Academy may be of interest.

I looked at this last week in this post.

As I said then it is worth looking at page 30:

Topic : Effectiveness of cloth face coverings

Limitations : No RCTs were able to be included, with estimates come from observational research designs only. Studies all in a healthcare setting in one country. Examined SARS and H1N1 and not COVID-19 setting. Small number of studies.

Level quality of evidence : Moderate-quality (to translate to public setting). No broader community settings (e.g., transport, shops).

To base anything on such weak 'evidence' is dismal science; the Royal Society should be ashamed.

 

[Bantamzen]

Anyway i did a test run of wearing a mask at the shops today and didn't die. Still only about 10% wearing masks though.

Well that's that sorted then. You just need to write the paper up, get it peer reviewed and published.....

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Sorry, but that's really not credible. If they had made their decision on the basis of this alleged evidence, they would have it immeditely to hand and would have produced it to support their policy.

Evidence based policy making. Goodness gracious me. What will they think of next!

 

[mmh]

Anyway i did a test run of wearing a mask at the shops today and didn't die. Still only about 10% wearing masks though.

Why?

 

[Scrotnig]

I've said it a lot of times on here, but just to reiterate, no one, other than an authorised person (ie a police officer) has the right to question why you are not wearing a face cover. Do not even engage the other person in conversation. They will be the one looking like a crazy person if they are ranting and raving all on their own.

All well and good but have you ever been in this type of situation? The more aggressive ones will follow you around shouting demands at you, and some will resort to pushing and shoving you because you're not engaging with them.
"Shop rage" was already a thing before this crisis, and in some less desirable areas an underclass of people think nothing of behaving in this way. For those with anxiety-related problems, it is absolutely terrifying and such a risk simply cannot be taken.

 

[MikeWM]

Well that's that sorted then. You just need to write the paper up, get it peer reviewed and published.....

Peer review? Don't think we need that anymore. One single anecdote seems to be at about the level of most of the papers being published.

I must say I've had my confidence in modern medical science rather shaken by all this - the quality and quantity of 'evidence' required for these studies is often totally woeful.

 

[birchesgreen]

Why?

Why what? Why get used to it before it becomes law? Well that's common sense. Or why only 10% wearing them? You'll have to ask them.

 

[PupCuff]

Why?

Doing a test run on a short-distance trip where you're unlikely to be alone if you were to have an asthma attack/panic attack etc seems a sensible course of action before using a mask on a longer trip where there may be no assistance to help if you were to collapse. If nothing else, it will give you some confidence and reassurance.

 

[birchesgreen]

Doing a test run on a short-distance trip where you're unlikely to be alone if you were to have an asthma attack/panic attack etc seems a sensible course of action before using a mask on a longer trip where there may be no assistance to help if you were to collapse. If nothing else, it will give you some confidence and reassurance.

Exactly 5 mins in Wilco today, Aberdeen to Penzance tomorrow.

 

[adc82140]

All well and good but have you ever been in this type of situation? The more aggressive ones will follow you around shouting demands at you, and some will resort to pushing and shoving you because you're not engaging with them.
"Shop rage" was already a thing before this crisis, and in some less desirable areas an underclass of people think nothing of behaving in this way. For those with anxiety-related problems, it is absolutely terrifying and such a risk simply cannot be taken.

I would surely hope that if it got to that, some decent member of society would come to your aid. I know I would. If it came to pushing and shoving, a call to 999 I think would be appropriate. A masktivist would soon back down if they were in danger of facing an assault charge.

 

[Bantamzen]

Peer review? Don't think we need that anymore. One single anecdote seems to be at about the level of most of the papers being published.

I must say I've had my confidence in modern medical science rather shaken by all this - the quality and quantity of 'evidence' required for these studies is often totally woeful.

Sorry but that is so cynical. Surely an anecdote, or perhaps a meme on social media ought to be more than enough....

But on a serious note, I am starting to worry. A bit like the Middle Ages science seems to be starting to be influenced by external pressures, and if we are quite frank that period of time was not documented as the best of periods.