Face coverings to become mandatory in shops in England (includes poll)

[LAX54]

Another concern is that such masks have not been evaluated in terms of the risks from other viruses (and other pathogens for that matter, e.g. bacteria). The science on whether they are even safe for the wearer is highly sketchy.

Yet on FB, if you dare question the idea of wearing a face mask, some think you are the scum of the earth !

 

[45107]

Another concern is that such masks have not been evaluated in terms of the risks from other viruses (and other pathogens for that matter, e.g. bacteria). The science on whether they are even safe for the wearer is highly sketchy.

I suggest that you check out the title of the 4th album released by Marillion.

The material used for masks, and indeed masks, have been in circulation for a large number of years. The intended use of a face mask has not changed.
Are you saying that COSHH assessment needs to be carried out or maybe they are issued with ‘hazardous health’ warnings ?

 

[furlong]

Well at least the newspaper (Daily Telegraph) that used to pay Boris a ridiculous sum of money for a weekly column gets it with headings like "This ludicrous mask decision shows this is a Government driven by fear" and an editorial:

If masks are becoming compulsory when Covid is declining, they will be with us for years to come
...
It is already a requirement to wear face coverings on public transport which is having the effect of putting a lot of people off using it. People are continuing to work from home rather than go to the office if that means wearing a mask on a train or a bus. Might the same happen with all the “non-essential” shops that have reopened and which face competition from online suppliers?

 

[PupCuff]

The material used for masks, and indeed masks, have been in circulation for a large number of years. The intended use of a face mask has not changed.
Are you saying that COSHH assessment needs to be carried out or maybe they are issued with ‘hazardous health’ warnings ?

I think you may have read something into the post that you quoted which wasn't actually there, unless you were referring to another post that I've missed. Are you familiar with COSHH, I don't understand where you think it comes into it.

 

[45107]

I think you may have read something into the post that you quoted which wasn't actually there, unless you were referring to another post that I've missed. Are you familiar with COSHH, I don't understand where you think it comes into it.

Indeed I did read something into it. I was interpreting it that masks aren’t safe and the risk of using them hasn’t been evaluated and that they are dangerous.
Maybe the reference to COSHH was not correct.
If I am honest, I was struggling for a sensible and polite reply to the comment. I had to stop laughing at it before replying.

 

[mmh]

I for one am waiting to hear what they're doing in Germany. For once we have a thread without mention of a MaskenKovertFahrtOopsEnschuldigugMissusTakt, and I worry we are missing some teutonic insight.

 

[Bantamzen]

If the "Winter Wave" of Covid that's being reported hits us, I think we've barely scraped the surface of the damage this could do to the economy...

Does anybody remember when the experts boldly predicting that covid was not seasonal? Anyone?

Sadly I get the feeling that a fair percentage of the population has been brainwashed and for weeks they had to get their dose of the "Daily Virus" Briefing and the follow up 18:00 News.

Since a young child I have been an avid follower of the news Today Programme in the morning at breakfast on on the drive to work. PM on the drive home. BBC News at 18:00 followed by my regional news at 18:00 then at 22:0 0n weekdays would watch the regional news from two parts of the country where I spend my holidays. Thus several hours of news everyday on weekdays, slightly less on holiday when I just tended to listen to the car radio news. But anyway I would say I am a bit of a newshound.

But towards the end of March once I had seen the first Covid daily briefing and watched the following news at 18:00 - I realised this wasn't information but subtle brainwashing complete with slogans and I was really starting to feel depressed.

I made the decision to stop watching and listening to the news entirely. I would occasionally look at the BBC News web site and a couple of local news web sites once or twice per week that was it.

I also stopped listening to Radio 4 and switched to Radio 3 to avoid any current affairs / discussions etc.

I only started to watch the 18:00 News again Monday last week (though not restarted listening to Today / PM) as I thought things had slackened up enough to start to re-engage with the world.

Isolating from Mainstream Media was strangely liberating - which I think enabled me to think more clearly.

The technique of using slogans in peoples faces such as "Stay at Home, Save Lives , Protect the NHS" reminded me of a three barrelled slogan used by the Germans Nazis in WWII "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - same snappy kind of slogan.

Dr Goebbels and his "Ministry of Propaganda and Public Enlightenment" long gone BUT I wondered if some of the techniques used then had been dusted off - and guess what - they still work.

I think we should adopt something different "Stay Alert > Beware Mainstream Media > Think For Yourself" - It would prevent people falling for subtle brainwashing.

Of course they don't call it brainwashing its called "getting the message across" - But it is the same thing. #

They want you to be on message!

The answer is switch off the media if you think you are being conditioned.

Also notice how you are only given what THEY want you to hear.

BBC is a good example this evening according to the report on facemasks it was commented that there was full compliance in Scotland. However, I saw on a lockdown sceptic site earlier today that some areas are only reporting 75% compliance.

Also looking at the poll here the majority do not appear in favour of facemasks - which begs the question how many people did they interview in the street who disagreed but who were edited out?

This is the time to trust nothing and no one and question everything.

A bit like yourself, I've taken quite a large step back from the media (something I cover a bit more in the media thread). However I do still dip in to gauge the mood, and something recently occurred to me when thinking why quite so many people I know were almost desperate for masks to be mandated. In a lot of the debates I've been having, and I've had a lot, the issue of masks has really polarised views as we see on these forums. But one thing has struck me, more often than not people arguing for masks reach out to articles that have popped up on the BBC website. At first I thought nothing of it, in media terms its a pretty much middle of the road outlet, although one I've found myself increasingly fed up with over the years.

And then I wondered why I was fed up with BBC News, and it struck me. Over the years I can remember getting annoyed at their latest medical / dietary scare stories, of which there have been a lot. In fact for whatever reason, the BBC has been a bit of a nagging outlet, constantly reminding us that those little food treats in life we often enjoy are bad for us and we might die, that if having the odd glass of wine might lead us to die, that if you don't go to the gym every day you might die, you know basically trying to guilt us into a healthier lifestyle. It was here that it struck me. Ever since the pandemic began, the BBC have increasingly been using pictures of people with masks, even when the context does not require it. Basically be it inadvertently or deliberately (I'll leave you to decide which is the case) the BBC has been normalising masks.

Its a well known technique, rather than blasting a message through society, you offer an idea or concept through nudging it more subliminally. In this case increasingly numbers of pictures of people with masks on, even though most people haven't been wearing them. Then they started offering advise on how to make your own, and have repeated it ad nauseum ever since, then they add articles on how the rest of the world is doing it, and hey here's some nice graphs to demonstrate it. Then they start to question why people aren't wearing masks, and offer advice on when you might want to wear a mask. And so on. All this helps makes people think that masks are normal, rarely is there a mention of the negative side to them, just that they are just something you should get used to often referring to them as "your mask" as opposed to "a mask". This then reflects back into the debates I have when people ask me why I'm not wearing "my mask", and why despite repeated links to both the scientific debates on the matter from both sides, and the data that clearly shows despite a very low ratio of people wearing them in public, the infection rates are coming down, the people I debate with continue to assert that we need masks to eradicate the virus.

Sadly for those of us sceptical on the benefits of them stopping spread, cynical about them offering any protection, and even concerned that poorly used ones could actually make things worse, this nudging technique employed by the BBC and others has been effective. Many people now actually believe that masks can save them from the virus, and any guilt they have been made to feel. More than just being a placebo, masks are rapidly becoming the security blanket of the nation, and I can only see them being forced into more & more situations, who knows maybe the nation's enforced collective guilt ("Stay Home, Protect The NHS, Save Lives, For You Are The Unclean") will see masks making their way across our doorsteps?

What's the next catchphrase? "Wear Masks, Be Free From Guilt, Massage Someone's Fragile Sense Of Security Because We Scared The Bejeezus Out Of Them"?

 

[adc82140]

For the passed month, since it became a requirment to wear a face covering while on public transport. I been using a Face Visor which I normaly wear when using power tools. The thing with cloth masks is that they quickly get damp. The World Health Organisation states: “Replace the mask with a fresh one as soon as it is damp". Masks can become contaminated from use, not only by COVID-19 but by other bacteria and viruses, so they should be washed at high temperature or disposed of carefully, making sure to wash your hands afterwards. It’s also important to never share your mask with someone else for this reason. People who are deaf or hard of hearing will have a problem if they rely on lipreading to communicate. Some retailers and the banks have a problem with people wearing masks instore after all what do robbers wear when on the job.

It was a bit of a revelation to me that visors are acceptable. As a result I've ordered half a dozen. I'll use them when shopping.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pubs and restaurants are the most glaring inconsistency - seemingly, if you follow the government's "logic", sitting resonably close to other people for possibly an hour or two at a time is less risky than briefly passing someone in the breakfast cereals aisle in Tesco!

I think that's more to do with the fact that the purpose of going to a pub (other than the social aspect) is to consume food and/or drink, so you'd have to repeatedly remove and refit a mask which is itself a risk. Track and trace is the mitigation for pubs - it's much harder to do that for Tesco.

No, it's not - and I don't think anyone on here has espressed the opinion that anyone should be prevented from wearing a mask.

Demanding that others wear masks when they don't want to though - that is selfish.

No, not wearing one is selfish. You wear your mask to protect me, I wear my mask to protect you. They provide almost no protection at all for the individual (which is why there's confusion about them - the realisation that they work this way round came later from original pronouncements of them being ineffective).

I'm also not buying this whole "but Covid is new!" excuse either. SARS-CoV-2 is a new virus, but airborne coronaviruses are old.

The ones in wide circulation just give you the sniffles, though.

 

[Pete_uk]

Tht'a not likely with libertarians. Their assumed 'rights' are valued above every fellow citizen's else's health and safety however little effort is called for on their part.

If people are at that much risk from the complications of the virus, maybe they could help themselves by staying at home and having what they need delivered. The rest of us can get on with it, as we have been doing since 2019.

I have little doubt we are being buttered up for full time face mask wearing when outdoors.

Sod that for a pack of toffees.

 

[DB]

Indeed I did read something into it. I was interpreting it that masks aren’t safe and the risk of using them hasn’t been evaluated and that they are dangerous.
Maybe the reference to COSHH was not correct.
If I am honest, I was struggling for a sensible and polite reply to the comment. I had to stop laughing at it before replying.

Well, when you've finished laughing at this hilarious concept, perhaps you might consider the reality of how many people will actually use masks in this sort of situation?

Under normal circumstances, people will wear a disposable mask for a task, then bin it. In areas where there is a particular risk of pathogens (e.g. medical) they will be trained in how to put them on and take them off, not to touch them while wearing them, etc - and they will be changed regularly and the used ones put in secure waste bins (I know there was a shortage of masks earlier in the year, but that wasn't normal).

I've not considered reusable/washable masks, because under normal circumstances their use is virtually non-existent.

Now let's look at this situation. Mr Bloke doesn't particularly want to wear a mask, but he's going along with it to keep the peace. He goes out in the morning with it in his pocket. He puts it on and goes into the supermarket to buy a few things, and in there encounters a mate from work, and they both pull down their masks to have a chat then pull them back up again afterwards. When he leaves the supermarket, he shoves the mask in his pocket. He then decides to go for a pint, so goes into the fairly busy pub (no mask required)and gets his pint, having a brief chat with some people he knows in there. He pays in cash and shoves the change into his pocket with the mask. When he leaves, he puts his mask on to go into a bookshop, and has a wander round looking at books. His nose itches so he pulls the mask down and scratches it, then pulls it back up and looks at a few more books. He can't find something, so he finds one of the shop staff and pulls down his mask to ask where to look, the pulls it back up. When he gets home, he has a look at the mask, and thinks, "that looks OK", and shoves it back in his coat pocket to use next time he goes out...

Now you might claim (reasonably) that people shouldn't use masks like this - but when a lot of people are being forced to do something which they don't want to do and have been given no clear reason for, this is very much what will happen in reality!

 

[DB]

(which is why there's confusion about them - the realisation that they work this way round came later from original pronouncements of them being ineffective).

There is a lack of sufficient evidence for them working either way round.

The ones in wide circulation just give you the sniffles, though.

But they are still the same type of virus, so what is known about them is relevant to modelling how a new virus of the same type is likely to behave.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think that's more to do with the fact that the purpose of going to a pub (other than the social aspect) is to consume food and/or drink, so you'd have to repeatedly remove and refit a mask which is itself a risk. Track and trace is the mitigation for pubs - it's much harder to do that for Tesco.

And what do you suppose people will do walking around the shops, going to Tescos, maybe even going to the pub in the middle? Mask on, mask off, mask on, fiddle with mask, mask off....

I do love the notion from some on here that people will comply with how masks should be used, i.e. do not touch, if you do wash hands, replace, wash hands again, replace every 4 hours, but it simply isn't going to happen. And so the reason the WHO for so long stood against the idea of mask wearing in the community will come to pass, and many surfaces may now be covered in other people's mask juice* where it will accumulate & concentrate as opposed to dispersing & diluting over a much wider area. And then when someone touches it & fiddles with the mask...

(* Description used for dramatic effect)

No, not wearing one is selfish. You wear your mask to protect me, I wear my mask to protect you. They provide almost no protection at all for the individual.

In your, and to be fair some other people's opinions. However if even for a moment you consider the above, you might actually start to understand why blindly following a mandate but not using the equipment properly could be a serious issue.

But if you really want to be altruistic, stay at home as much as possible, only go out for essential journeys, do not take leisure trips, do not use public transport, interact with as few people as possible. After all, it can't hurt can it....?

Well, when you've finished laughing at this hilarious concept, perhaps you might consider the reality of how many people will actually use masks in this sort of situation?

Under normal circumstances, people will wear a disposable mask for a task, then bin it. In areas where there is a particular risk of pathogens (e.g. medical) they will be trained in how to put them on and take them off, not to touch them while wearing them, etc - and they will be changed regularly and the used ones put in secure waste bins (I know there was a shortage of masks earlier in the year, but that wasn't normal).

I've not considered reusable/washable masks, because under normal circumstances their use is virtually non-existent.

Now let's look at this situation. Mr Bloke doesn't particularly want to wear a mask, but he's going along with it to keep the peace. He goes out in the morning with it in his pocket. He puts it on and goes into the supermarket to buy a few things, and in there encounters a mate from work, and they both pull down their masks to have a chat then pull them back up again afterwards. When he leaves the supermarket, he shoves the mask in his pocket. He then decides to go for a pint, so goes into the fairly busy pub (no mask required)and gets his pint, having a brief chat with some people he knows in there. He pays in cash and shoves the change into his pocket with the mask. When he leaves, he puts his mask on to go into a bookshop, and has a wander round looking at books. His nose itches so he pulls the mask down and scratches it, then pulls it back up and looks at a few more books. He can't find something, so he finds one of the shop staff and pulls down his mask to ask where to look, the pulls it back up. When he gets home, he has a look at the mask, and thinks, "that looks OK", and shoves it back in his coat pocket to use next time he goes out...

Now you might claim (reasonably) that people shouldn't use masks like this - but when a lot of people are being forced to do something which they don't want to do and have been given no clear reason for, this is very much what will happen in reality!

Exactly. As I also said above, people simply won't use masks the way they should to prevent spread. In fact they don't now!

 

[AM9]

If people are at that much risk from the complications of the virus, maybe they could help themselves by staying at home and having what they need delivered. The rest of us can get on with it, as we have been doing since 2019. ...

I rest my case about just how selfish some have become. Thank you for making it so easy here.

... I have little doubt we are being buttered up for full time face mask wearing when outdoors. ...

Clearly you haven't learnt what every expert has been saying about the difference between infection spread outdoors and in confined spaces.

 

[Class 33]

Matt Hancock this morning on BBC Breakfast saying face masks in shops will be compulsory for the forseeable future until a vaccine is found! This is from the government themselves, not a media written article. Then also on the Express website the headline "UK faces major restrictions until 2021 - devastating Downing Street leak." Yet just the other week Boris was telling us that he wanted to get the country back to normal as soon as possible!!! This is insane.

 

[Ianno87]

Matt Hancock this morning on BBC Breakfast saying face masks in shops will be compulsory for the forseeable future until a vaccine is found! This is from the government themselves, not a media written article. Then also on the Express website the headline "UK faces major restrictions until 2021 - devastating Downing Street leak." Yet just the other week Boris was telling us that he wanted to get the country back to normal as soon as possible!!! This is insane.

Wear a face mask (a minor inconvenience) and it opens up doing more normal things.

 

[westv]

Clearly you haven't learnt what every expert has been saying about the difference between infection spread outdoors and in confined spaces.

Haven't parts of Spain decided that masks must be worn outdoors too. France is considering it.

 

[DB]

Wear a face mask (a minor inconvenience) and it opens up doing more normal things.

But wearing a mask is not 'normal' - it is unpleasant and will put many people off from doing things which they would otherwise do. It alsp perpetuates a mindset of everyone being 'unclean'.

If the government was to set out with a policy of bankrupting local businesses and driving everyone to online retailers, it's hard to think of a policy which would be more effective than this.

 

[DB]

Haven't parts of Spain decided that masks must be worn outdoors too. France is considering it.

It seems that governments can't let go now - they've got used to being able to force draconian restrictions on their citizens at a moment's notice, so have to come up with more and more of them to perpetuate this.

 

[Ianno87]

But wearing a mask is not 'normal' - it is unpleasant and will put many people off from doing things which they would otherwise do. It alsp perpetuates a mindset of everyone being 'unclean'.

So hospitals and vets are "unclean" then?

You're overthinking this.

 

[Midnight Sun]

It was a bit of a revelation to me that visors are acceptable. As a result I've ordered half a dozen. I'll use them when shopping.

This is one I been using on the train between March and Cambridge. As you can see It wraps a round the face which is all that is required. Plus it also covers the eyes unlike a cloth face mask

 

[Bletchleyite]

But if you really want to be altruistic, stay at home as much as possible, only go out for essential journeys, do not take leisure trips, do not use public transport, interact with as few people as possible. After all, it can't hurt can it....?

It can hurt the economy, whereas putting on a mask won't.

 

[Bantamzen]

So hospitals and vets are "unclean" then?

You're overthinking this.

Believe it or not, despite the strict hygiene conditions in hospitals, infectious disease can and do still spread in hospitals, including covid.

 

[Skymonster]

Tht'a not likely with libertarians. Their assumed 'rights' are valued above every fellow citizen's else's health and safety however little effort is called for on their part.

I think almost everyone is willing to do the right thing if the reasoning is put in the right way. But this isn’t just about masks. If questioning the scientific basis on which new regulations are devised, because the evidence is not clear and communicated... If new regulations are introduced without adequate scrutiny or debate in parliament, which is a fundamental part of any democracy... If decisions been made seem to be illogical and counter to previous but recent guidance... Of course some people will push back. We are edging ever closer to being a dictatorship rather than a democratic society. If arguing against that is “libertarian” I’m happy to be labelled as such.

 

[DB]

So hospitals and vets are "unclean" then?

You're overthinking this.

They are wearing masks for particular tasks, with a very clear rationale - namely to reduce transmission risk of a wide range of pathogens while in close contact, in situations where the risk of infection is high (this is fully backed up with evidence). They do not continue to wear them outside of that situation.

I am not overthinking this, but it does appear that many in favour of masks are not thinking at all - they are blindly following what the government and their Facebook "friends" are telling them without actually considering the logic at all.

 

[Ianno87]

Believe it or not, despite the strict hygiene conditions in hospitals, infectious disease can and do still spread in hospitals, including covid.

And that's why PPE is justified.

 

[Class 33]

But wearing a mask is not 'normal' - it is unpleasant and will put many people off from doing things which they would otherwise do. It alsp perpetuates a mindset of everyone being 'unclean'.

If the government was to set out with a policy of bankrupting local businesses and driving everyone to online retailers, it's hard to think of a policy which would be more effective than this.

Indeed. It will put a great many people off from going to non-essential shops, despite the government seeming to think it will give people more confidence to go out shopping! It will put many people from taking long journeys on the train and coach for leisure. That's just two examples. It will be extremely damaging to the mood of the nation and the economy, the longer this insane nonsense goes on for.

 

[DB]

It can hurt the economy, whereas putting on a mask won't.

So you think that nobody will minimise being in situations where they have to wear a masks, leading to a lot fewer shop visits? Really?

 

[Ianno87]

They are wearing masks for particular tasks, with a very clear rationale - namely to reduce transmission risk of a wide range of pathogens while in close contact, in situations where the risk of infection is high (this is fully backed up with evidence). They do not continue to wear them outside of that situation.

I am not overthinking this, but it does appear that many in favour of masks are not thinking at all - they are blindly following what the government and their Facebook "friends" are telling them without actually considering the logic at all.

My logic is very simple. It's a small ask that might make a difference.

Most of the mask objections can be summarised as "because I don't want to".

 

[DB]

I think almost everyone is willing to do the right thing if the reasoning is put in the right way. But this isn’t just about masks. If questioning the scientific basis on which new regulations are devised, because the evidence is not clear and communicated... If new regulations are introduced without adequate scrutiny or debate in parliament, which is a fundamental part of any democracy... If decisions been made seem to be illogical and counter to previous but recent guidance... Of course some people will push back. We are edging ever closer to being a dictatorship rather than a democratic society. If arguing against that is “libertarian” I’m happy to be labelled as such.

Indeed. The government keeps telling us this week about this alleged "growing evidence", but nobody seems able to actually point to this evidence!