Face coverings to become mandatory in shops in England (includes poll)

[johnnychips]

^ In view of Mr Hancock’s statement about shop workers being at much greater risk than others, I’d better find my equally unreferenced source. Give me half an hour.

Edit: I can’t find that source for the life of me, but what I can say is that from data on May 20th, men who work in the retail sector aged 15-64 have a 40% greater chance of dying of CV than average. These are official statistics.

Thus I think I’d better change my previous stance, and say we should wear masks for the sake of all our shop workers.

Coronavirus (COVID-19) related deaths by occupation, England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

Provisional analysis of deaths involving the coronavirus (COVID-19), by different occupational groups, among males and females aged 20 to 64 years in England and Wales.

www.ons.gov.uk

 

[talldave]

The Keep Britain Free movement - led by businessman Simon Dolan is worth following on line.

John

Unfortunately, he's muddling a clear message with anti-5G rubbish (electronic engineer here!).

 

[johnnychips]

Oh, hang on. I looked at the figures a bit more closely. The average risk of dying for everybody on May 20th was 10 in 100 000. For male shopworkers it was 14 in 100 000.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

 

[talldave]

But it's a small, temporary, sacrifice for each of us to make that might, just might, make a difference and restore normality that bit quicker.

Who said temporary? How long is temporary? Why now, well in 10 days, when infections will be even lower? Why are you so accepting without questioning the illogistics(??!!)? There's no science, no saving NHS overload. And with no reasoning provided, there are no parameters on which to un-mandate.

Me wanting to wear a mask is not selfish.

Me being forced to wear one is unacceptable.

 

[Mojo]

Tomorrow’s Telegraph is reporting government considerations to requiring face masks to be worn in all public places, including your own workplace...

 

[westv]

Tomorrow’s Telegraph is reporting government considerations to requiring face masks to be worn in all public places, including your own workplace...

Doesn't surprise me. Spain has that already (or is close I think ) and France are considering it.
Looks like we'll have to get used to face coverings virtually all day every day.

 

[Richard Scott]

Doesn't surprise me. Spain has that already (or is close I think ) and France are considering it.
Looks like we'll have to get used to face coverings virtually all day every day.

Government have now completely list the plot. There is no way I can wear one of those all day so does that mean I now have to give up work? This is not a whine, the sheer thought gives me anxiety and that's something I don't usually suffer from.

 

[John Luxton]

I thought Sweden was now the only European country with a higher weekly deaths per million than the UK? Has the UK or someone else overtaken them again?

I read somewhere the majority of deaths in Sweden were connected with care homes - the rest of the population fared better.

Interesting recent article also on the fact they may be better prepared for a second wave if it comes.

If there is a second wave of Covid, the Swedish approach will have been right all along

Not going into lockdown was described as “a mad experiment” at the time, but Sweden can look to the winter with less trepidation than most

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[John Luxton]

Government have now completely list the plot. There is no way I can wear one of those all day so does that mean I now have to give up work? This is not a whine, the sheer thought gives me anxiety and that's something I don't usually suffer from.

I saw a card posted on a lockdown sceptic group from TFL that showed anxiety could be a good medical reason for not wearing one. Could be quite a few people's cop-out excuse.

 

[Class 33]

Tomorrow's Mirror reporting that face masks in shops/supermarkets will be required until a vaccine is found! That will be for about another year at least until a vaccine is found, if even atall! Welcome to the 2020's, and what an absolutely dreadful decade this is proving to be so far.

 

[BJames]

In all fairness, that article refers to the potential for them being "recommended" (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/07/14/face-coverings-public-places-consideration/):

Face coverings could soon be recommended in all public places including offices and other workplaces after ministers introduced new laws forcing people to wear them in shops, the Telegraph has learnt.

Officials have begun private talks with groups representing major employers amid growing fears within Government over the prospect of a second wave of covid infections in the autumn.

The talks came as a council in Lancashire became the first to order face coverings to be worn in all workplaces and enclosed public spaces following a rise in coronavirus infections.

President Macron also announced that face masks will soon become compulsory in all indoor public places in France as parts of America reimposed lockdowns....

The rest is behind a paywall for me.

I'll be ignoring the recommendation.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

The whole article from The Telegraph reads:

Face coverings could soon be recommended in all public places including offices and other workplaces after ministers introduced new laws forcing people to wear them in shops, the Telegraph has learnt.

Officials have begun private talks with groups representing major employers amid growing fears within Government over the prospect of a second wave of covid infections in the autumn.

The talks came as a council in Lancashire became the first to order face coverings to be worn in all workplaces and enclosed public spaces following a rise in coronavirus infections.

President Macron also announced that face masks will soon become compulsory in all indoor public places in France as parts of America reimposed lockdowns.

Boris Johnson is expected to set out a fresh “road map” for his long-term Covid-19 strategy on Friday, when he will give new details of how the country will get back to work without risking a second spike.

The new laws on facemasks in shops were unveiled on Tuesday amid growing confusion over the government's strategy, with even senior Cabinet ministers apparently at odds over the wearing of masks.

This was exemplified by Cabinet minister Michael Gove who bought food from a branch of Pret a Manger without covering his face, despite telling the public it was “good sense” and “good manners” to do so.


His Cabinet colleague Liz Truss did wear a face covering when she bought food from the same branch, and the restaurant chain itself said it had no idea whether the new face covering rule will apply to it or not.

Mr Johnson has faced a growing backlash from his own MPs and ministers over the decision to force people to wear masks in shops, and on Tuesday a row broke out between retailers and Matt Hancock over a claim by the Health Secretary that deaths among shop staff had been “disproportionately” high.

Mr Hancock told the Commons that Covid deaths among male sales and retail assistants was 75 per cent higher than the average, and 60 per cent for female retail workers, but Marks & Spencer chairman Archie Norman said the claim was incorrect.

Mr Norman added that he was concerned Mr Hancock's statement "will make it less likely that people feel comfortable being in shops in the short-term."

There are growing fears on the high street that the move will deter already nervous shoppers from spending.

JD Sports chief executive Peter Cowgill told the BBC on Tuesday that the introduction of mandatory facemasks would negatively impact consumer confidence. He said: "Maybe it will be a positive for older customers but a deterrent for younger ones. "I think it's the inconsistencies and the indecisiveness that causes the lack of confidence."

Mr Hancock hinted at an extension to the face coverings rule, saying it was being introduced in “chunks”, while the Environment Secretary George Eustice refused to rule out the idea of telling people to cover their faces in offices and other workplaces.

Mr Eustice said: "At the moment we take one step at a time and we've taken the view in this next step that we should make it mandatory in retail environments.

"When it comes to workplace environments, because people are in the same company throughout the day, there are not lots of people coming through the venue as you have in a retail environment; the risk of transmission is therefore lower."

Supporters of a blanket rule on wearing face coverings in public places argue that it is far easier to understand, and the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy has contacted business representative groups to canvass their views on far more extensive use of face coverings.

The feedback from business leaders was that they would support “any measures” that would increase consumer confidence, but asked for evidence that there was scientific evidence to back such a move.

One senior Government source said the Government was following “emerging evidence” that face coverings not only help prevent an infected person from spreading the virus, but also offer the wearer some protection from others, as reported by the World Health Organisation and the Royal Society in recent days.


The source added: “Wearing face coverings at work is already part of our guidance in some settings.”

Another Government source said: “There are no current plans to recommend face coverings in all public places, but things are moving very quickly and nothing can be ruled out. We spent a long time saying we wouldn’t tell people to wear them in shops, but now that’s what we’ve done.”

Mr Hancock suggested that making face coverings mandatory in shops and supermarkets from July 24 was primarily for economic reasons, saying the British Retail Consortium had said they made shoppers “more confident about returning” while the Federation of Small Businesses had said face coverings “had a part to play in recovering physically and financially”.

Sources party to the discussions between BEIS and business leaders said any extension of face covering guidance was expected to be a recommendation rather than a legal requirement.

Blackburn with Darwen council announced on Tuesday that face coverings will be required in all workplaces and enclosed public spaces following a rise in coronavirus cases.

The authority’s public health director said residents would also be told to wear masks in libraries, museums, health centres and hair and beauty salons.

 

[alex397]

I don't think having a seemingly big divide between people who think we must wear masks, to people who think it is ridiculous, is at all helpful. If only we had a government that was giving out a concise message with clear reasoning behind it, with fewer u-turns and mixed messaging, the country would be more united.

It's true that there is an increasing number who prefer to be instructed by the government how to conduct every aspect of their lives and prefer the government to think for them from cradle to grave. But thankfully they are still, I believe, in the minority.

I'm not quite sure these people you describe really exist. Perhaps people just want a government to give clear concise and consistent messaging. With a major event such as this, it is difficult for people to decide what the best approach is, so people need clear advice. Surely this is what the government is there for?

 

[BJames]

I think its one thing to mandate them in shops but would be quite another to tell people to wear them outdoors. After all, this government has consistently said (and even the Mayor of London, one of the largest mask activists agrees) that the transmission is considerably lower outdoors and you can social distance much easier. There's already a low level of dissatisfaction regarding compulsory masks in shops, can't quite see how it would be justified outdoors. And in offices? People will just continue working from home. Businesses like pret/Greggs/others reliant on commuters (including public transport) won't get the money.

How this is supporting the economy or making anyone feel more confident is a mystery to me. I see the very sensible comment from JD's CEO that matches with my experience - older people feel safer with the rule but younger people are more likely to just shop online and forget the high street completely. Not exactly the return to spending in shops the government thinks or wants to happen!

 

[hst43102]

Tomorrow's Mirror reporting that face masks in shops/supermarkets will be required until a vaccine is found! That will be for about another year at least until a vaccine is found, if even atall! Welcome to the 2020's, and what an absolutely dreadful decade this is proving to be so far.

I'd take anything from a lot of the media with a pinch of salt at the moment. Last week they were calling it Super Saturday - which could potentially have caused a rise in infections (thankfully it doesn't seem to have had that effect)

 

[bramling]

The whole article from The Telegraph reads:

This is getting beyond a joke now. Notwithstanding the suggestion of a bit of friction between the government and retailers, this was always the problem with implementing masks in shops, where does it end? And how do you on one hand say it’s vital to wear a mask in Tesco’s at midnight, yet it’s okay to drink in a pub without? Then what happens with open-plan offices, especially air conditioned ones?

I do wonder if this is partly the result of the government coming to realise that they can’t kick the shielding can any further down the road, either politically or from an affordability perspective.

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that we have some *extremely* rough months ahead. Let’s hope this is measured in months not years.

 

[hst43102]

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that we have some *extremely* rough months ahead. Let’s home this is measured in months not years.

If the "Winter Wave" of Covid that's being reported hits us, I think we've barely scraped the surface of the damage this could do to the economy...

 

[furlong]

There's only one date that matters in politics and that's the date of the next election. By then the economy will have tanked, taxes will have risen, the loyal Conservative vote will have evaporated etc. and they'll be after every vote they can get once again and that's when new medical evidence will miraculously appear that tells them the "pandemic" has been successfully conquered entirely thanks to their efforts and we no longer need to wear masks everywhere and can return to normal (until after we've voted).

 

[bramling]

If the "Winter Wave" of Covid that's being reported hits us, I think we've barely scraped the surface of the damage this could do to the economy...

From a cohesion point of view it would be disastrous too. I don’t think a repeat of furlough is affordable, and I don’t think we can expect children to miss out on another segment of education. All this with a prime minister whom much of the population have little confidence in.

 

[John Luxton]

They're not depressing. I find them quite refreshing. And the reason for them is simple: many people in the UK do not like being told what to do when there is no clear reasoning behind the instruction. It's in their psyche and the "If it just saves one life" mantra simply doesn't wash. It's true that there is an increasing number who prefer to be instructed by the government how to conduct every aspect of their lives and prefer the government to think for them from cradle to grave. But thankfully they are still, I believe, in the minority.

Sadly I get the feeling that a fair percentage of the population has been brainwashed and for weeks they had to get their dose of the "Daily Virus" Briefing and the follow up 18:00 News.

Since a young child I have been an avid follower of the news Today Programme in the morning at breakfast on on the drive to work. PM on the drive home. BBC News at 18:00 followed by my regional news at 18:00 then at 22:0 0n weekdays would watch the regional news from two parts of the country where I spend my holidays. Thus several hours of news everyday on weekdays, slightly less on holiday when I just tended to listen to the car radio news. But anyway I would say I am a bit of a newshound.

But towards the end of March once I had seen the first Covid daily briefing and watched the following news at 18:00 - I realised this wasn't information but subtle brainwashing complete with slogans and I was really starting to feel depressed.

I made the decision to stop watching and listening to the news entirely. I would occasionally look at the BBC News web site and a couple of local news web sites once or twice per week that was it.

I also stopped listening to Radio 4 and switched to Radio 3 to avoid any current affairs / discussions etc.

I only started to watch the 18:00 News again Monday last week (though not restarted listening to Today / PM) as I thought things had slackened up enough to start to re-engage with the world.

Isolating from Mainstream Media was strangely liberating - which I think enabled me to think more clearly.

The technique of using slogans in peoples faces such as "Stay at Home, Save Lives , Protect the NHS" reminded me of a three barrelled slogan used by the Germans Nazis in WWII "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - same snappy kind of slogan.

Dr Goebbels and his "Ministry of Propaganda and Public Enlightenment" long gone BUT I wondered if some of the techniques used then had been dusted off - and guess what - they still work.

I think we should adopt something different "Stay Alert > Beware Mainstream Media > Think For Yourself" - It would prevent people falling for subtle brainwashing.

Of course they don't call it brainwashing its called "getting the message across" - But it is the same thing. #

They want you to be on message!

The answer is switch off the media if you think you are being conditioned.

Also notice how you are only given what THEY want you to hear.

BBC is a good example this evening according to the report on facemasks it was commented that there was full compliance in Scotland. However, I saw on a lockdown sceptic site earlier today that some areas are only reporting 75% compliance.

Also looking at the poll here the majority do not appear in favour of facemasks - which begs the question how many people did they interview in the street who disagreed but who were edited out?

This is the time to trust nothing and no one and question everything.

 

[PupCuff]

There's only one date that matters in politics and that's the date of the next election. By then the economy will have tanked, taxes will have risen, the loyal Conservative vote will have evaporated etc. and they'll be after every vote they can get once again and that's when new medical evidence will miraculously appear that tells them the "pandemic" has been successfully conquered entirely thanks to their efforts and we no longer need to wear masks everywhere and can return to normal (until after we've voted).

I'd certainly be hard pressed to ever vote Conservative again after this mask debacle. I add at this point I have no idea who I'd vote for instead, considering the tories won my vote on the basis they were the least worst.

 

[johnnychips]

If the "Winter Wave" of Covid that's being reported hits us, I think we've barely scraped the surface of the damage this could do to the economy...

Just made a point.

 

[hst43102]

Just made a point.

Hopefully you're correct.

 

[John Luxton]

I'd certainly be hard pressed to ever vote Conservative again after this mask debacle. I add at this point I have no idea who I'd vote for instead, considering the tories won my vote on the basis they were the least worst.

Same here, I could put up with squabbles over Europe in or out it didn't bother me - just went with the flow started off a remainer and then changed when BoJo became leader as I believed he would be good for the country and he started off well.

But then I didn't expect him to crash the economy over a virus.

Unbelievable / unforgiveable.

Yes something had to be done - but he should have weathered it out with plan A - yes death rate may have been higher - herd immunity seemed logical.

You should always stick to an original decision - once you dither and change - that is a sign of panic and weakness.

Come next election more people would have been in work and still likely vote for him. I don't think that will happen.

Who will I vote for?

Goodness knows - perhaps we need a new party of the right that includes those Tories that are not panicky ditherers but stoic and determined in the Churchillian model.

Certainly won't be Labour - might take refuge with the Lib-Dems until the Tories sort themselves out.

 

[bramling]

Same here, I could put up with squabbles over Europe in or out it didn't bother me - just went with the flow started off a remainer and then changed when BoJo became leader. But I didn't expect him to crash the economy over a virus.

Unbelievable / unforgiveable. Yes something had to be done - but he should have weathered it out with plan A - yes death rate may have been higher. But come next election more people would have been in work and still likely vote for him. I don't thing that will happen.

Who will I vote fore?

Goodness knows - perhaps we need a new party of the right that includes those Tories that are not panicky ditherers but stoic and determined in the Churchillian model.

It wouldn’t stop me voting for a given party, however I can categorically say I will not vote for a party with BJ as leader. I’m not sure that’s a choice we’ll have to face though - I cannot see him surviving this, it’s a question of when not if the fresh blood has to come. I think he knows that too, hence why any policy is worth a punt now.

 

[Jonny]

I think its one thing to mandate them in shops but would be quite another to tell people to wear them outdoors. After all, this government has consistently said (and even the Mayor of London, one of the largest mask activists agrees) that the transmission is considerably lower outdoors and you can social distance much easier. There's already a low level of dissatisfaction regarding compulsory masks in shops, can't quite see how it would be justified outdoors. And in offices? People will just continue working from home. Businesses like pret/Greggs/others reliant on commuters (including public transport) won't get the money.

How this is supporting the economy or making anyone feel more confident is a mystery to me. I see the very sensible comment from JD's CEO that matches with my experience - older people feel safer with the rule but younger people are more likely to just shop online and forget the high street completely. Not exactly the return to spending in shops the government thinks or wants to happen!

Exactly - some of us are re-routing our money away from shops until all this coronavirus farce is over. If you want me to spend, it is on my terms first and foremost, and yours come second.

 

[johnnychips]

I’ve opened a new thread about how you might have changed your vote according to your previous party’s response to the CV problem.

If there were a general election in a month, whom would you vote for to most effectively get us out of this mess?

In the last general election, I voted for the Yorkshire Party, as I knew the leader’s mother and he was a good chap. Normally I vote Labour, but I figured that my local candidate would get in anyway and in any case I didn’t like her much (Oops she lost her seat!). Now all this stuff about...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[furlong]

It wouldn’t stop me voting for a given party, however I can categorically say I will not vote for a party with BJ as leader. I’m not sure that’s a choice we’ll have to face though - I cannot see him surviving this, it’s a question of when not if the fresh blood has to come. I think he knows that too, hence why any policy is worth a punt now.

Looked like Gove was already on manoeuvres these last couple of days to distance himself from Hancock's latest policy disaster.

 

[Midnight Sun]

For the passed month, since it became a requirment to wear a face covering while on public transport. I been using a Face Visor which I normaly wear when using power tools. The thing with cloth masks is that they quickly get damp. The World Health Organisation states: “Replace the mask with a fresh one as soon as it is damp". Masks can become contaminated from use, not only by COVID-19 but by other bacteria and viruses, so they should be washed at high temperature or disposed of carefully, making sure to wash your hands afterwards. It’s also important to never share your mask with someone else for this reason. People who are deaf or hard of hearing will have a problem if they rely on lipreading to communicate. Some retailers and the banks have a problem with people wearing masks instore after all what do robbers wear when on the job.

 

[Jonny]

For the passed month, since it became a requirment to wear a face covering while on public transport. I been using a Face Visor which I normaly wear when using power tools. The thing with cloth masks is that they quickly get damp. The World Health Organisation states: “Replace the mask with a fresh one as soon as it is damp". Masks can become contaminated from use, not only by COVID-19 but by other bacteria and viruses, so they should be washed at high temperature or disposed of carefully, making sure to wash your hands afterwards. It’s also important to never share your mask with someone else for this reason. People who are deaf or hard of hearing will have a problem if they rely on lipreading to communicate. Some retailers and the banks have a problem with people wearing masks instore after all what do robbers wear when on the job.

Another concern is that such masks have not been evaluated in terms of the risks from other viruses (and other pathogens for that matter, e.g. bacteria). The science on whether they are even safe for the wearer is highly sketchy.