Kings Cross to Nottingham and Sheffield

[Bald Rick]

Post HS2, a potential idea could be to open a new (not on the old alignment) dead straight, 125mph line from the WCML south of Rugby to the MML south of where the line from Nuneaton joins. The fast services from London to Leicester and Loughborough would then be provided via the WCML, and additionally these places would be connected to Milton Keynes (I would have everything on the WCML fasts stop at MK post HS2). I would anticipate journey times to Leicester being roughly the same as MML timings - between 1h and 1h10m.

The MML service would be reduced to 2tph Corby (Luton Airport, Luton, Bedford, Rushden, Wellingborough, Kettering) and 2tph Leicester (Luton Airport, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, Market Harborough). The only loser with the scheme would be Market Harborough, losing its 1tph nonstop to London.

The junction with the WCML could be a triangle junction, with the XC Birmingham to Leicester / Peterborough / Cambridge fasts being provided via Rugby (additionally connecting these places to HS2 via Bham Int, providing connectivity from these stations to Manchester, Liverpool, Preston, Glasgow etc, and reconnecting Leicester with Coventry, a link often suggested to be reinstated due to high demand) and the line via Nuneaton could be transferred to WMT and become a commuter line with lots of new stations and no services past Leicester.

I’m struggling to understand the sense of any of this.

Particularly the high demand Leicester to Coventry. As a former commuter on the line when there were direct trains, the number of regular commuters per train travelling between the two cities could easily be accommodated on a small bus.

 

[London Trains]

Huh? Where are the 'lots of new stations" between Nuneaton and Leicester going to be located? Hinckley and Narborough are the only settlements of any size.

I meant between Birmingham and Nuneaton mainly. Lots of stations are being proposed already on the section of the line closest to Brum.

 

[London Trains]

I’m struggling to understand the sense of any of this.

Particularly the high demand Leicester to Coventry. As a former commuter on the line when there were direct trains, the number of regular commuters per train travelling between the two cities could easily be accommodated on a small bus.

I didn't mean just high demand between Coventry and Leicester, but lots of links formed in the area.

A 2tph Birmingham New Street to Cambridge service calling at Birmingham Intl, Coventry, Rugby, Leicester, Melton Mowbray, Oakham, Stamford, Peterborough, March and Ely would be a very popular service, especially with HS2 at Birmingham Intl providing lots of connections across the country.

 

[JonathanH]

A 2tph Birmingham New Street to Cambridge service calling at Birmingham Intl, Coventry, Rugby, Leicester, Melton Mowbray, Oakham, Stamford, Peterborough, March and Ely would be a very popular service, especially with HS2 at Birmingham Intl providing lots of connections across the country.

Would it be sufficiently more popular than a 2tph Birmingham New Street to Cambridge service calling at Nuneaton, Leicester and the stations to Cambridge to justify the building of a new line that wouldn't speed up the through journey? Have you actually looked at a map to see where Rugby is situated relative to Coventry and Leicester? Even Coventry would be a detour relative to the existing route through Nuneaton.

I don't think this investment will be justified by moving Nottingham and Sheffield to London services to the ECML, as worthy as that might be.

 

[London Trains]

Would it be sufficiently more popular than a 2tph Birmingham New Street to Cambridge service calling at Nuneaton, Leicester and the stations to Cambridge to justify the building of a new line that wouldn't speed up the through journey? Have you actually looked at a map to see where Rugby is situated relative to Coventry and Leicester?

I don't think this investment will be justified by moving Nottingham and Sheffield to London services to the ECML, as worthy as that might be.

Would the idea work without the moving of Nottingham and Sheffield services to the ECML? Effectively giving Leicester, Loughborough, Derby, Nottingham, Chesterfield and Sheffield fast services all to the WCML, as well as moving the Birmingham to Cambridge services to a line with more connectivity and no added journey time.

 

[cle]

The current West Midlands Hub plans call for a lot more via Nuneaton overall, but Birmingham-Leicester.

The second tph being extended to Cambridge/Stansted is often discussed. Whether it would stop at all the same stations, I'm not sure. It's not fast in its current guise, so I'd assume that would be the case to give 2tph to Oakham etc.

But maybe one day there will be demand for a Birmingham - Nuneaton - Leicester - Peterborough - Ely- X fast

 

[London Trains]

But maybe one day there will be demand for a Birmingham - Nuneaton - Leicester - Peterborough - Ely- X fast

That service is not possible on the current infrastructure though. The service talked of being extended is the Birmingham to Leicester slow. A new fast service would have to be pathed around the current stopper, any new stops in the West Midlands, 4tph XC towards Derby and Sheffield, everything on the MML and ECML, and around other services at Ely that may well be using the single line.

 

[randyrippley]

I propose an hourly (at first) LNER service, run by 9 car Class 800s, running:

Kings Cross - Peterborough - Grantham - Nottingham - Chesterfield - Sheffield

The service would take over the Norwich to Nottingham service (after the split of Liverpool to Norwich). I would have GA run an hourly Peterborough to Norwich service, in the opposite half hour to the (increased to hourly) Peterborough to Ipswich service, with good connections to and from this service.

By my calculations, a service with the current infrastructure doing this would take just over 2h15m. With speed improvements between Grantham and Chesterfield to bring down the time closer to 2h, would a service like this be viable and would it be able to rival the MML?

Why not reverse at Sheffield and run on to Manchester and Liverpool?

 

[London Trains]

Why not reverse at Sheffield and run on to Manchester and Liverpool?

Why? Liverpool to Norwich is already being split due to reliability issues. That is effectively rejoining that service together and bringing back the reliability issues that will be removed soon, and effectively making it worse since this service will run over Welwyn Viaduct and has conflicts with Thameslink in London.

 

[randyrippley]

Why? Liverpool to Norwich is already being split due to reliability issues. That is effectively rejoining that service together and bringing back the reliability issues that will be removed soon, and effectively making it worse since this service will run over Welwyn Viaduct and has conflicts with Thameslink in London.

And you think the original idea was any more sensible? That was my point.

 

[Peter Kelford]

You could do that with the Norwich if there was a good enough reason. But Peterborough to the North East will still be quicker via the existing route than via Toton and HS2, and Peterborough to London obviously would, so it's only really Peterborough to Birmingham and maybe Sheffield that would benefit. And connecting into the proposed Midlands Connect Nottingham-HS2-Birmingham service would offer the same benefits for the former without having to re-hash most of the service pattern in the East Midlands.

Indeed the present XC 170 is rather packed already.

 

[johnnychips]

Not that it’s necessarily a good idea, but is it physically possible to run up the ECML to Retford then continue to Sheffield via Worksop without reversing? Sorry if this has already been answered.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not that it’s necessarily a good idea, but is it physically possible to run up the ECML to Retford then continue to Sheffield via Worksop without reversing? Sorry if this has already been answered.

It is, very slowly (10mph)

 

[Senex]

It is, very slowly (10mph)

And it's very slowly round a very long curve. (You do sometimes wish for the original SW curve back!)

 

[edwin_m]

And it's very slowly round a very long curve. (You do sometimes wish for the original SW curve back!)

And while it's going very slowly round the long curve, or braking for or accelerating from it, it's blocking one or both tracks of the ECML.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

And while it's going very slowly round the long curve, or braking for or accelerating from it, it's blocking one or both tracks of the ECML.

In theory not excessively blocking an ECML track, as it can be pathed appropriately into the down platform (I'm guessing no worse than an existing Hull Trains or LNER service towards Doncaster); or in the up platform you just path it to "sit" for 30 seconds, wait for something to go south and then follow it.

 

[edwin_m]

In theory not excessively blocking an ECML track, as it can be pathed appropriately into the down platform (I'm guessing no worse than an existing Hull Trains or LNER service towards Doncaster); or in the up platform you just path it to "sit" for 30 seconds, wait for something to go south and then follow it.

Only if it stops at Retford. An allegedly fast Sheffield train probably wouldn't.