Face coverings to become mandatory in shops in England (includes poll)

[ashkeba]

Polls like that are highly likely to be biased as there are no controls on the demographics etc of who is filling it in. Probably been pushed by the mask mob on social media.

I thought it was a panel poll by a company that follows the Market Research Society codes, not a Twitter poll but I ask @Alex C. to link to the source because I must log on to work for the afternoon session now.

Keep well!

 

[BJames]

I don't doubt the police will be enforcing it in places. No doubt just as poorly and incompetently as the officer stopping a shopper for buying 'non essential items' some months ago.

I suspect we may not have heard the last from Derbyshire Police... I'm sure they can think of some way to redirect all their staff to mask enforcement.

 

[adc82140]

No one ever attempted to enforce that. It was down to some clueless clown let loose on the official Twitter account.

 

[mmh]

This forum is full of public transport enthusiasts who decide to make choices that are generally good for society, but many make the error of thinking everyone can be trusted to act as socially responsibly as them, washing hands, covering sneezes and coughs and keeping distance, but we know that isn't correct because most people keep driving antisocial distances in old polluting clunkers. So I think it is not a big surprise that the general public differ from this forum.

I don't think anyone really knows what the general public think. We know that Facebook and Twitter are full of people who for whatever reasons don't appear to want to normality back, and there is a large hysterical contingent. There's also a fairly healthy sceptical element on Twitter too, but they get less coverage and less attention. The only thing we do know is that the average person doesn't use these things and scream outrage and abuse into the Internet.

The forum is rather more "old school", people on the whole take time to explain their reasoning for their opinion in more detail than the Twitter user would dream of or be able to. We'll never know, but there's a chance it might be more representative of a cross section of the public - it's not a social media style "echo chamber", there are loads of differing views on all kinds of things on here.

 

[bramling]

But wearing masks outside could be enforced and will no doubt be the mask mobs next target.
F-that if I it happens. I just won't do it, they can lock me up because I won't pay the fine either.

I think mandating masks outside would be the tipping point that leads to serious disorder. There’s already a lot of simmering anger and frustration just waiting to boil over. Add to that Johnson’s clueless judgement.

 

[bramling]

I don't think anyone really knows what the general public think. We know that Facebook and Twitter are full of people who for whatever reasons don't appear to want to normality back, and there is a large hysterical contingent. There's also a fairly healthy sceptical element on Twitter too, but they get less coverage and less attention. The only thing we do know is that the average person doesn't use these things and scream outrage and abuse into the Internet.

The forum is rather more "old school", people on the whole take time to explain their reasoning for their opinion in more detail than the Twitter user would dream of or be able to. We'll never know, but there's a chance it might be more representative of a cross section of the public - it's not a social media style "echo chamber", there are loads of differing views on all kinds of things on here.

Yes Facebook and Twitter are full of one-liners and soundbites which aren’t really subject to scrutiny.

However, one indicator of general feeling is surely the fact that most people in shops, and perhaps most tellingly this applies to staff too, are choosing not to wear masks. I don’t think this is really in dispute - even my hysterical local Facebook page expresses horror at how that most people aren’t wearing them.

 

[Skymonster]

So has anyone seen the proposed regulations yet? It'll be interesting to see whether it applies only to shops, or to the entire area of enclosed malls too - and what about indoor markets?

 

[mmh]

Opinion polls disagree so far. See above for yougov one.

Such polls can be self selecting, they attract the extremes of the spectrum of opinion. Besides, I thought we'd realised opinion polls were a bit rubbish in about 2015.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Yes Facebook and Twitter are full of one-liners and soundbites which aren’t really subject to scrutiny.

However, one indicator of general feeling is surely the fact that most people in shops, and perhaps most tellingly this applies to staff too, are choosing not to wear masks. I don’t think this is really in dispute - even my hysterical local Facebook page expresses horror at how that most people aren’t wearing them.

Unfortunately the same was true of public transport up until the mandate came in and yet the vast majority comply (even if only half-heartedly, with a chin guard). Hardly anyone wore the masks before; the majority supposedly supported mandating them; now most wear them. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Darandio]

Such polls can be self selecting, they attract the extremes of the spectrum of opinion. Besides, I thought we'd realised opinion polls were a bit rubbish in about 2015.

Just like the one at the top of this thread. It's quite obvious what the result was going to be here.

 

[MikeWM]

So has anyone seen the proposed regulations yet? It'll be interesting to see whether it applies only to shops, or to the entire area of enclosed malls too - and what about indoor markets?

Wouldn't hold your breath. I'll bet they'll arrive a few hours before they come into force, just like the others have.

 

[baz962]

Exactly. Any talk of wearing masks in your own home is nonsense, if they ever went down that route and you're really, seriously, genuinely worried you just close your blinds. Nobody could ever tell you otherwise. And I'm highly confident that recommending the wearing of masks in your house if other households are there will be swiftly ignored. Anyone concerned enough won't invite others round to their house anyway.

And in my case , I live in a three story house. When downstairs , we spend the time in the kitchen or garden , both at the rear . The main lounge is on floor two and at the rear. So to check/enforce , someone would need A , a ladder and B , to come into my garden. I absolutely would let my dog at them.

 

[baz962]

I don't doubt the police will be enforcing it in places. No doubt just as poorly and incompetently as the officer stopping a shopper for buying 'non essential items' some months ago.

I was specifically talking about if they tried to make it compulsory in your own home.

 

[Alex C.]

So you don't think that an outbreak that originated in a supermarket or shop would be less "high profile" than those that have been reported in factories or individual pubs. Come on - the media would be all over it if a shop was shut down due to it being identified as the source of an infects. I didn't ask for official sources - I asked for just one example to be cited which could easily be from a news report. Perhaps there are none? Or maybe such cases are being deliberately hushed up???

We weren’t doing test and trace for most of the pandemic so have no idea where every infection originated. At best we can say we don’t know but it seems fairly common sense that out of the tens of thousands of infections, at least 1 could have originated in a retail setting.

This is just a measure to reduce the risk. No one is suggesting that it’s going to eliminate transmission. Even if there is no health benefit and the effect is just psychological, if it reassures more people than it puts off, the net effect on the economy is likely to be positive, which is what everyone who wanted us to come out of lockdown quickly said was so important.

For what it’s worth I think masks would have been useful 3 months ago but now would suggest they only really serve use as a tool in the ‘local lockdown’ strategy, to potentially reduce transmission in known high transmission areas. For areas with low transmission the benefits aren’t there for me.

 

[bramling]

Unfortunately the same was true of public transport up until the mandate came in and yet the vast majority comply (even if only half-heartedly, with a chin guard). Hardly anyone wore the masks before; the majority supposedly supported mandating them; now most wear them. It doesn't make any sense.

That doesn’t really tell us anything more than that many people perhaps don’t want the hassle of being bothered, or the cost of a fine. Having said that there still appears to be a core of people who don’t wear them on transport, especially if they know no one is looking. I’ve seen a fair few board trains with a mask on, then within a minute or two having had a look round to see what the score is, discreetly remove them.

 

[BJames]

The first figure I've seen about when masks should be stopped. See https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...us-live-news-updates-boris-johnson-face-masks at 12:02:

Dr David Strain, clinical senior lecturer at the University of Exeter and also chair of the British Medical Association’s medical academic staff committee, said that masks should be used until there is less than one new case per million of population per day:

England is one of last countries in Europe to mandate the use of face coverings to reduce the risk of the spread of coronavirus from asymptomatic carriers in order to facilitate the safer easing of lockdown. Even now, they wish to wait another 10 days before implementing the change.
Yesterday more than 500 people tested positive for the virus, which the ONS figures suggest is only about one-third of the true number of new cases in the UK. The remaining two-thirds of the population with the virus are the ‘silent spreaders’, people who carry and can potentially spread the virus despite having no symptoms themselves. The mandatory use of face coverings will reduce the risk to the population at large from these individuals. There is clear evidence that a cloth face covering will reduce up to 84% of droplet spread, the main source of transmission of Covid. Additionally, in other pandemics the use of masks have actually promoted safer activity such as hand washing and physical distancing, acting as a reminder of the severity of the pandemic.
We must carefully consider how we introduce masks. In several locations, such as pubs and restaurants, the use of masks will not be feasible or even possible. In these locations strict physical distancing of more than 2m and/or physical barriers should be used in order to protect the staff and other customers from the risk of asymptomatic carrier...
An incidence of less than one new case per million population per day is widely accepted as “viral eradication” and we would suggest this be the point that masks can safely be removed.

I don't necessarily agree with everything he's saying - basically that when the virus is eradicated we could stop using masks. Or in reality, around 66 new cases per day maximum, if we're going by his figure (assuming the population of UK is 66 million).

Not sure about the figure of 84% reduction in spread - if that's true we should be down to zero in no time. Somehow I suspect that's not going to come true, although I'd love to be pleasantly surprised!

 

[trebor79]

So has anyone seen the proposed regulations yet? It'll be interesting to see whether it applies only to shops, or to the entire area of enclosed malls too - and what about indoor markets?

Wouldn't hold your breath. I'll bet they'll arrive a few hours before they come into force, just like the others have.

Exactly. We've gone from a clear understanding of what was required of us individually, to muddy waters. All thanks to people demanding "clarity".
I want to buy a bandana as my token gesture to avoid a fine, and least unpleasant way of complying. But I have no idea if it will be sufficient. I know it is on transport but who's to say the rules will be the same?

 

[initiation]

The first figure I've seen about when masks should be stopped. See https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...us-live-news-updates-boris-johnson-face-masks at 12:02:



I don't necessarily agree with everything he's saying - basically that when the virus is eradicated we could stop using masks. Or in reality, around 66 new cases per day maximum, if we're going by his figure (assuming the population of UK is 66 million).

Not sure about the figure of 84% reduction in spread - if that's true we should be down to zero in no time. Somehow I suspect that's not going to come true, although I'd love to be pleasantly surprised!

Worth noting that Scotland is reporting between 2 and 12 new cases a day over the last week (an average of 8 per day). Scotland has a population of 5.5million, so based on this we can expect face masks to soon be dropped there...thought not.


The problem with a single number is it doesn't account for the source of any outbreaks. For example, does wearing masks in a supermarket help reduce infections in hospitals or at the meat processing plant that was on the news? No.

 

[DelayRepay]

Until now the public have not really taken to wearing masks in shops. There have been a few but their numbers have dwindled over time and they are very much the exception. This is purely anecdotal evidence based on my shopping trips, but seems to chime with other posters' experience.

I had to go out for work this morning (for the first time since March, but don't get too excited as I was just collecting a replacement piece of equipment!). While I was out I popped into Morrisons and was surprised to see that more people than usual were wearing masks. Could just be a coincidence or could be linked to the government announcement.

Personally, I would prefer not to wear a mask while shopping. However, the scientific viewpoint does seem to be changing as we learn more about how Covid-19 is transmitted. I will happily wear a mask if it means we can stick with the 1m distancing rather than 2m, continue with the shorter queues (or no queues) outside shops, and avoid potential local lockdowns. I think some of the issue (maybe this is a male thing) is people don't want to look like the odd one out. Back in February when I saw someone wearing a mask, my head turned. So as it becomes normal I think people will become more relaxed about it.

I do sympathise with those who have medical conditions which prevent wearing a mask, as they will be the 'odd ones out' now and the people who cause heads to turn, even if not in a nasty way.

 

[island]

I thought it was a panel poll by a company that follows the Market Research Society codes, not a Twitter poll but I ask @Alex C. to link to the source because I must log on to work for the afternoon session now.

It was. It doesn’t matter, though. Anyone seeing any poll that they disagree with will simply dismiss it as “not representative”.

 

[Yew]

The first figure I've seen about when masks should be stopped. See https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...us-live-news-updates-boris-johnson-face-masks at 12:02:



I don't necessarily agree with everything he's saying - basically that when the virus is eradicated we could stop using masks. Or in reality, around 66 new cases per day maximum, if we're going by his figure (assuming the population of UK is 66 million).

Not sure about the figure of 84% reduction in spread - if that's true we should be down to zero in no time. Somehow I suspect that's not going to come true, although I'd love to be pleasantly surprised!

My guess is that he's mistaken "Filtration ability" as "reduction in transmission"

 

[Scrotnig]

I do sympathise with those who have medical conditions which prevent wearing a mask, as they will be the 'odd ones out' now and the people who cause heads to turn, even if not in a nasty way.

I won't turn any heads - I simply won't bother going in any shops, at all, basically as of today. I'm not risking being set upon or shouted at. Because that is absolutely what will happen, sooner or later.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Most people are touching masks and removing them constantly, and certainly not putting them in a plastic bag! Straight into their pocket after, or straight out of their pocket before getting on a train.

That's what I tend to do but then it doesn't matter becasuse there's no evidence that wearing a mask either protects me or anyone else.

 

[BJames]

That's what I tend to do but then it doesn't matter becasuse there's no evidence that wearing a mask either protects me or anyone else.

It's what I did too to be honest when I travelled on a train where the three other people in the carriage were all doing the same thing.

 

[jtuk]

The first figure I've seen about when masks should be stopped. See https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...us-live-news-updates-boris-johnson-face-masks at 12:02:



I don't necessarily agree with everything he's saying - basically that when the virus is eradicated we could stop using masks. Or in reality, around 66 new cases per day maximum, if we're going by his figure (assuming the population of UK is 66 million).

Not sure about the figure of 84% reduction in spread - if that's true we should be down to zero in no time. Somehow I suspect that's not going to come true, although I'd love to be pleasantly surprised!

https://www.rcreader.com/commentary...f-science-relevant-to-covide-19-social-policy would indicate that 84% seems optimistic beyond belief

 

[BJames]

I'm sure even the largest activists know it's nowhere near 84%. Saying there's weak evidence to suggest that face coverings reduce transmission and then saying by up to 84% makes no sense at all.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Very simply, if this is introduced I won't be going in shops. Online's worked for everything while the shops were shut so should work better now they're open.

I vote for this option.

Did my Tesco shop in person yesterday evening, and mentioned in passing to a friend I bumped into, the likelihood of an announcement on Friday. Lo and behold, they brought the announcement forward. I instantly booked three home delivery slots in each of the next three weeks. Just waiting in today for yet another Amazon delivery.

 

[John Hunt]

Something George Eustance said on Breakfast time included the term 'evolving policies'. Is this on a level with the White House 'alternate facts'?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I was specifically talking about if they tried to make it compulsory in your own home.

Did you see the video of an officer in South Yorkshire claiming that it was illegal to be in your own garden, threatening a man with arrest for being in his own garden? Some people will stop at nothing in their ineptitude or power tripping.

 

[BJames]

Did you see the video of an officer in South Yorkshire claiming that it was illegal to be in your own garden, threatening a man with arrest for being in his own garden? Some people will stop at nothing in their ineptitude or power tripping.

Goodness. Haven't seen this but I would hope that the custody sergeant at the police station would reject this ridiculous reason for arrest. At the very least the courts would throw it out.