Face coverings mandatory in shops in Scotland

[Journeyman]

That is beyond unlikely. Mask wearing in other places, e.g. in Asia when you have a cold, has not caused that.

It hasn't got rid of colds either.

 

[Llanigraham]

I wonder what supermarket staff will do when someone buys a age restricted product such as alcohol or cigarettes it will make “challenge 25” more difficult

No it won't.
They will ask for evidence that they are old enough, just like they do now.

 

[adc82140]

A lot of the far Eastern mask wearing is because of the hideous levels of pollution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It hasn't got rid of colds either.

We aren't talking about getting rid of it, just reducing it.

 

[AdamWW]

It's now 1 in 3900. Then you have approximately a 1 in 8 chance of actually catching it. Then a 1 in 100 chance of being sick enough for hospital. Then a 1 in probably 50 chance of needing a ventilator.

Plus of that 1 in 3900, even at the most pessimistic estimate 20% will have symptoms and will be isolating at home.

Right but you might want to include a factor that allows for the chance of meeting more than one person a day.

Bloody hell - is it really as low as that? That's extraordinary. We're trashing everything for that?

No. We're not. We're really not. We're "trashing everything" because if we just go back to normal tomorrow the overwhelming likelihood is that exponential growth starts up and those 1 in 3900 people rapidly become a lot more.

 

[AdamWW]

That's not similar logic at all, because fire alarms demonstrably save lives, and don't have any negative effects on the lives of people using the building when it isn't burning down.

Widespread, long-term mask wearing has significant downsides that are very difficult to justify in the absence of any proof it achieves anything.

There is a much higher chance of dying in a fire compared to being infected with COVID-19.

Please read what I said:

"And as I've said above, the argument that not many people have coronavirus so it's a waste of time doesn't wash.

Similar logic would say not to bother with fire alarms in buildings because they cost money to install and maintain and a given building is very unlikely to burn down. "

Note; I didn't say masks do more good than harm (though I think on balance the evidence at present is that they do).

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

We aren't talking about getting rid of it, just reducing it.

We already have, and are continuing to do so. Quite substantially, as discussed here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/covid-19-good-news-stories.204651/

 

[Bletchleyite]

We already have, and are continuing to do so. Quite substantially, as discussed here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/covid-19-good-news-stories.204651/

Cool. Let's reduce it a bit more, then.

 

[Journeyman]

Cool. Let's reduce it a bit more, then.

But there's very little evidence it does reduce it, and plenty of evidence it has a serious negative impact on quite a few people.

Must try harder, I'm afraid.

 

[MattA7]

Apparently already a elderly man was abused in co-op for not wearing a face mask however it later turned out he had severe asthma and was recovering from a recent surgery therefore was medically exempt however as it was not immediately he was berated by staff and other customers

 

[sheff1]

Apparently already a elderly man was abused in co-op for not wearing a face mask however it later turned out he had severe asthma and was recovering from a recent surgery therefore was medically exempt however as it was not immediately he was berated by staff and other customers

If true, the Vigilante State advocates on here will be very happy with this first-day success. They want no truck with exemptions - "for the greater good", obviously.

 

[al78]

There is consideration to make face coverings mandatory in shops in England now, according to the BBC.

Coronavirus: No 10 considering mandatory face masks in shops in England

Face coverings are already compulsory on transport in a bid to slow the spread of coronavirus.

www.bbc.co.uk

"Making face coverings mandatory in shops in England is being considered by the government to slow the spread of coronavirus, senior sources have said.

Speaking in a Facebook Q&A video, Boris Johnson hinted at the change saying: "We are looking at ways of making sure that people really do have face coverings in shops.""

 

[Richard Scott]

There is consideration to make face coverings mandatory in shops in England now, according to the BBC.

Coronavirus: No 10 considering mandatory face masks in shops in England

Face coverings are already compulsory on transport in a bid to slow the spread of coronavirus.

www.bbc.co.uk

Notice is says in a bid to slow the spread, how much slower do they want it, at current rate it'll be 200 years + before whole population get it, somewhat unlikely!

 

[trebor79]

So the low number of cases at present doesn't itself justify not taking [further] precautions.

It absolutely does. We've been shopping for months without masks. The people working in the shops haven't dropped like flies. We and nobody we know has been ill and in our local authority area infections are running at 1 or 2 cases per week. Infections have dropped massively from the peak without masks.

What does all this mask wearing achieve when infections have already dropped without mask wearing? It doesn't make sense.

Exactly. The evidence for efficacy is slim at best. Marginal effectss will have more impactt when infection rates are high. Say your mask policy reduces transmission by 5% (and there's no evidence is at good as that). Firstly, most transmission occurs in the home, so let's say a quarter of cases are contracted whilst shopping, probably an overestimate.
If infections are 100,000 per day, that's 25,000 due to shopping, and masks would cut 1,250 of those out. So a 1.25% reduction in overall transmission.
Infections are currently running at 500 per day. Using the save assumptions a masks while shopping mandate would prevent 6 infections.
In real life a lot less. I think we can confidently say that in Scotland,with a handful of cases per day, masks in shops will reduce infection numbers by precisely zero.
Little point when the virus was raging. Totally pointless now.

I don't think there is very strong evidence on whether face coverings help, but the evidence seems to be tipping towards them being useful.

It isn't though. It's all conjecture and maybes and opinion. And all couched in terms of "but why effect is so shall we can't really be sure".

 

[Journeyman]

I've just been out for my evening constitutional, and while I was walking, I came up with some thoughts about a scenario that I don't think is entirely outwith the realms of possibility. Whatever your opinions on masks, I'd urge you to think about this, and try answering some of the serious problems this presents.

Let's imagine you're a vulnerable person. You have pretty severe learning difficulties that mean you struggle to read and write, and because they were never diagnosed properly, you were bullied throughout your childhood. This has left you with catastrophically low self-esteem, and a bunch of undiagnosed, trauma-related mental health problems.

You have very little confidence, and therefore no friends. You live alone in a grotty council flat in a dodgy, crime-ridden area because it's all you can afford. Under normal circumstances, you just about manage to look after yourself, but it's hard. It's made particularly tough by the gang of neds who hang around outside your flat, who call you a spastic and a mong every time you see them.

Along comes the coronavirus, and the lockdown. You really struggle to understand what's going on, and you try to follow the press conferences, but they don't make much sense at all. It eats away at your confidence even more, so you go out even less, and spend even more time staring at the same mouldy and damp four walls. But every now and again, you brave the outside and go to the shop. The shop staff are friendly and they do their best to help you, so it's the highlight of your week to go and pick up your groceries.

Now, you're told you can't go in the shop without a mask. You manage to get hold of some before the rule comes in, and you take them home. You try putting one on, but it's really tricky and it takes ages. It feels horribly uncomfortable, and it immediately triggers a really serious panic attack. You lack the ability to understand or articulate why that is the case.

So...what do you do? I see you have three choices.

First, you attempt to comply, so you put one on, and summon up all your courage in an attempt to go and buy groceries. It's really difficult for you and you're hyperventilating by the time you get onto the street. You turn the corner, and there's the neds drinking Buckie and causing trouble. You immediately go into full-blown panic and leg it home before you wet yourself.

The next day, you hear that some medical exemptions are allowed, so perhaps it'll be alright not to wear one. You try going out again, and you feel much better because you're less constricted, and the feeling of panic has gone. However, the shop has decided to station a security guard at the door, who happens to be psychopathic thug. You attempt to go in without a mask, and the security guard yells at you loud enough for everyone to hear, and demands to know why you're not wearing one. It immediately causes a flashback to a particularly nasty bout of childhood bullying, so you immediately lose what little ability you have to articulate yourself. You attempt to explain, but you don't even know what your issues are called, and you start stammering, as the security guard asks you increasingly personal questions, and the shoppers behind get impatient. Again, you flee before you have a full-blown panic attack.

You spend some time trying to psych yourself up to go out again, but this time, you panic before you even reach the door. You only have a basic phone and no computer, so you can't order groceries online, and wouldn't know where to start even if you did have the right kit. You don't know any of your neighbours and there's no-one you can turn to help. You run out of essential food, and begin to suffer physically. You try to get a doctor's appointment, but they're not doing any becouse of the coronavirus, and your attempts to try and explain everything by phone fail miserably. The overworked and stressed doctor's receptionist makes a note to contact someone at the council, but forgets about it completely, and it never happens.

You sit alone and suffer, and have no idea what to do. Eventually, after a few months, someone breaks into your flat and finds that you've died.

I know all those people who think mask-wearing should be enforced will think this is massively exaggerated, but I'm concerned because people like this do exist, and things like this do happen. It's very easy to forget just how vulnerable and overlooked a lot of people are, and this will adversely affect those who struggle to assert themselves and can't even begin to work out how to solve their problems.

Spare a thought for them before you judge, and ask yourself - is it really worth it, just so you can lecture us all about what we should be doing?

 

[route101]

Similar compliance levels to transport in shops today , only in a few. Did completely forgot in Tesco to put mask on.

 

[PG]

Spare a thought for them before you judge, and ask yourself - is it really worth it, just so you can

Thanks for posting that, hopefully it will remind us all how some people exist in our society.

Sadly we will probably be reading of some people discovered dead at home in a few months time.

 

[Journeyman]

Thanks for posting that, hopefully it will remind us all how some people exist in our society.

Sadly we will probably be reading of some people discovered dead at home in a few months time.

Thanks. I take it for granted that I can articulate my needs and demands, and I have the resources, confidence and ability to problem-solve. A lot of people don't. The law should protect them, not heap more obstacles into their already difficult lives on extremely flimsy grounds.

 

[Richard Scott]

Thanks. I take it for granted that I can articulate my needs and demands, and I have the resources, confidence and ability to problem-solve. A lot of people don't. The law should protect them, not heap more obstacles into their already difficult lives on extremely flimsy grounds.

We do you often forget those people who find change really hard to deal with. Those with Autism are probably really suffering at the moment and the facemask issue may be more than some of them can cope with. Not making this statement to back up my opinion, have worked with those with autism and can see how this rule may cause them real issues. Some are high functioning who lead relatively normal lives but things like this can really upset them.

 

[route101]

Can anyone in Scotland give us a view on how busy the shops are, compared with the old normal and the past four months?

In England there was much media noise in the lead-up to the re-opening of non-essential shops, and now a deafening silence on how busy towns are, or aren't. I note today a report saying that, of the 40% of pubs which had re-opened (survey of main chains), their takings were about 50% of normal. So, overall, trade in the pub sector at 20% of normal. The pubs that had opened couldn't even attract their usual custom, never mind custom from outlets which remained closed.

Glasgow City Centre is a lot busier now.

 

[PaulMc7]

Dealing with change used to reek havoc with my Aspergers tbh so I'm really lucky that it's nowhere near as bad as it was when I was 19/20(26 now) Definitely feel for those worse off than me considering I'm avoiding shops for the foreseeable and public transport unless I get a job interview that will then require me to use it.

There was a feature on STV news earlier and that was sad to me that people have to plead with the general public to be kind and aware that people might not be wearing a face covering for good reasons like that. Asthma sufferers who do get affected by face coverings are another group I feel for. Seen way too many tweets by people with asthma saying they can cope so everyone else should no excuses

 

[MattA7]

As mentioned before I am 26 and have Asperger’s syndrome. I worked hard to become independent and lead a relatively normal life and worry that if I avoid going out completely that hard work could all be ruined as before I had a fear of going outside.

I suffer from claustrophobia and panic attacks I’m also severely underweight which causes shortness of breath very easily it is seriously enough that I am exempt from wearing a seatbelt however I know what to do if challenged by a police officer (show them the exemption certificate) however the same can’t be said for face masks which have no official exemption and I could be challenged by more then just police officers (for example security guards, other shop customers)

I will try wearing a scarf and hope it is less restrictive and easier to tolerate however not sure what I’ll do if it isn’t. I would hate for all of the hard work done by both myself and support workers to help me lead a more independent life is ruined because of this situation.

I also don’t have much in the sense of a social life so sometimes a friendly chat with the staff in the local takeaway is about all I get Especially nowadays as places of worship are closed so I’m not able to attend like I used to and I am unlikely to be able to do so any time soon

 

[Journeyman]

I hope you get on alright - like you say, it would be terrible if your hard-won progress was lost. This is what a lot of people don't understand - there's actually a lot at stake, and I'm extremely annoyed by politicians who completely fail to understand the consequences of their actions.

 

[mmh]

I'd prefer to follow the medical advice rather than the opinion of a random person on the internet. We can trade research papers that say it is/ isn't effective. Personally I'm of the view that - on balance - it protects others.

Whose medical advice are you following? Please feel free to quote the research papers that inform your opinion. If you don't, there is no trading of research papers, and you're just another random person on the Internet exactly the same as those you discount.

 

[Bantamzen]

But in England it remains a choice. You can choose whether or not to wear one, and you won't be fined or refused access to a shop if you don't. I have absolutely no problem with people wearing masks if they want to, even though I completely disagree with it, because it's utterly pointless and achieves nothing at this point in the game. If you want to, fine, knock yourself out. Kid yourself all you like that there's a point to it, and you're being all heroic. No skin off my nose.

Making it compulsory completely changes the dynamic of it all. It's day one, and already social media is full of aggressive idiots using foul language and abuse to shame people they've seen without masks. There's no attempt to understand or empathise with the fact that loads of people have valid medical exemptions. It's creating the impression that the Big Bad World is far more dangerous than it really is, which is ultimately very damaging to the attitudes people have to risk. It affects people's social interactions, many people find it threatening and scary, it affects the ability of the deaf to communicate, and it's actually going to make a lot of people stay at home more. It's going to potentially damage a lot of businesses.

This sums up the whole situation very nicely. Masks are being promoted by quite frankly self-righteous fanatics without a slither of understanding of the effectiveness of wearing them in general day to day life. They just want to be seen to be "doing something" & be labelled as "heroes". Honestly I am completely sick and tired of people, be they leaders of a country or the army of Karens on Facebook, telling all and sundry that masks will save lives when for the most part they will do bugger all. Of course they will point to countries that enforced them on their entire population and declare that their low rates were because of them. However they will also ignore whenever these countries suddenly see spikes, because the reality that they don't want to face is that the most likely sources of infections aren't in the supermarket, or a book store, on a country walk, or even a pub. One of the most likely sources is in our own homes, as is now being realised around the world with many spikes being seen in large housing projects / estates.

And here's were my objections to masks originate. If masks are made mandatory for public transport, shops and who knows before long the great outdoors, how long will it be before they are also made mandatory in your own homes? After all, if there's a chance you'll pass it on, isn't that the right thing to do? Eh? Eh?

It's also entirely unreasonable for governments to stick their noses in like this, and Nicola Sturgeon's reasons to me sound like a massive pile of s***. All she's concerned about is next year's Scottish Parliament elections, and looking heroic to her core vote. The SNP is a remarkably tight ship and absolutely no-one is allowed to go off-message, and that includes the very large number of people who are nationalist enough to always vote for her without question. This has been imposed with no debate, no consultation, no justification, no information on how success will be measured, how long it will go on for, what the goal of it is, what research it's based on...nothing. All we're getting is that we should be shamed into it, and those daring to raise questions around it are getting absolutely nothing but abuse.

If that doesn't worry you, I think you have far too much naive faith in authority.

There is little doubt in my mind that Sturgeon is on a power trip, and frankly it amazes me that more Scots aren't really concerned about that. Sure she's branded it under the Independence flag, but you can clearly see she's enjoying her new found powers and is now testing the boundaries to see just how far she can push.

 

[Pete_uk]

Not quite sure where this should go, but shouldn't we be seeing a spike in cases from all the day trippers that were out at the beach a fortnight ago?

 

[adc82140]

It'll be like the spike we saw from the Cornish beaches in May, or the Durdle Door episode, or the garden centres reopening, or the shops reopening. Oh wait....

 

[talldave]

Not quite sure where this should go, but shouldn't we be seeing a spike in cases from all the day trippers that were out at the beach a fortnight ago?

Or perhaps all those people photographed with a telephoto lens weren't so close together after all? Remember WHO think 1m is OK. And 1m on a beach is quite hard not to achieve. I was on a beach that week (not Bournemouth) and never got close to anyone, spent money like crazy on ice creams and takeaway food to support local traders and had a great time.

Next day I was shopping in Sainsbury's in much closer contact with people, but the newspapers didn't focus on that??

 

[Bletchleyite]

It'll be like the spike we saw from the Cornish beaches in May, or the Durdle Door episode, or the garden centres reopening, or the shops reopening. Oh wait....

The indoor pubs will be more interesting. It very much seems like it doesn't spread at all (or near to it) outdoors.

 

[Smidster]

I am not against masks per se but I do think we need to make sure it is the right response by sector, worry about the negative consequences and need clear messaging about the levels at which it would no longer be a requirement.

In shops or outdoors I see no evidence that it will do any good whatsoever - Spread outside is practically non-existent and in shops you just don't have the long periods of personal contact. I know for me the only impact will be to massively reduce any trips outside - They are not comfortable to wear and project the message that everyone around you is diseased and dirty. On the one hand we are telling people that it is fine to do stuff and indeed we should all be "Eating out to Help Out" while on the other hand also saying that the world is so dangerous that we need all these additional rules and restrictions.

I do however think they have a place in enclosed spaces where you are in close proximity to the same group of people for a lengthy period of time - This does include public transport but would also extend to places like Cinemas, Pubs and Restaurants. It makes no sense to me that I can sit indoor next to someone in a restaurant / pub for an hour but if I go to the Supermarket where I might pass within 1m of someone for a couple of seconds at most then you have to deal with a mask.

I also worry a lot that this is being primed as something that will be around until there is a vaccine / reliable treatment - That is certainly the current messaging and could legitimately be years - Is that really the world we want to live in? What enjoyment are we getting out of life?