Air Con. on London Underground Trains.

[Engineer EA]

T/Op’s and passengers are divided on this subject.
I believe the natural airflow we had on the older stock trains is still the best solution.

 

[LE Greys]

Well, having just come back from a trip including Boston and New York, I think it's a very bad idea. Yes, you have cooler trains, but the stations are extremely hot and uncomfortable. Cool the stations (even with big air-con plants if necessary - or just fans if they have access to the open air) and the trains should distribute cold air along the tunnels by the piston effect. As for the trains, the good old hopper ventilator is by far the best cooling system I know of.

 

[Gavelex]

How are T/Op's and pax divided?
I can't see why T/Op's care, all bar one line have air con in the cab! (And that line is getting it with the new trains now)

 

[Engineer EA]

How are T/Op's and pax divided?
I can't see why T/Op's care, all bar one line have air con in the cab! (And that line is getting it with the new trains now)

Gavelex, I suggest you search the DD forum for the past thread on the subject of air con in the cab. It shouldn’t be too hard find; after all you are a member of the said forum!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Gavelex]

No I'm not...

And if your refering to S stock, then that is an issue regarding the operation of air con in failure conditions...

 

[Engineer EA]

No I'm not...

And if your refering to S stock, then that is an issue regarding the operation of air con in failure conditions...

I'm sure you have been, and no, I'm refering to the debate on D stock.

 

[Daniel]

I struggle to remember a thread where staff or passengers are saying they don't want air-con :/

 

[jon0844]

As I sweated buckets on a boiling hot 313 at Old Street yesterday, I thought of this thread.

 

[Metadyneman]

There is also the question of heat generation from Aircon units.. whilst the train interiors might benefit from aircon. The sub surface stations certainly wont. Personally I find the heat in some of the deep level tube stations hotter than being in the trains themselves, almost as hot as being in a sauna.. surely aircon on tube trains will make matters worse outside the trains?

Another point I have raised before is that aircon on trains where the doors are opened and shut at very frequent intervals such as in the centre of London on the tube lines is unlikely to make the aircon very green efficient or energy efficient.

 

[Aictos]

There is also the question of heat generation from Aircon units.. whilst the train interiors might benefit from aircon. The sub surface stations certainly wont. Personally I find the heat in some of the deep level tube stations hotter than being in the trains themselves, almost as hot as being in a sauna.. surely aircon on tube trains will make matters worse outside the trains?

Another point I have raised before is that aircon on trains where the doors are opened and shut at very frequent intervals such as in the centre of London on the tube lines is unlikely to make the aircon very green efficient or energy efficient.

Simple solution then replace the existing windows with 313 type windows with hopper windows at the top and introduce air conditioning for the stations themselves, this would be more cheaper and more energy efficient then trying to air con every train, I say this because when you stand at the end of the coach with the little droplight down where the emergency door is tends to be a lot cooler then elsewhere in the coach.

Same could be for any stock with hopper windows, you do get a nice cool breeze from them when in motion, also why I prefer HSTs to 91s.

 

[Goldfish62]

Simple solution then replace the existing windows with 313 type windows with hopper windows at the top and introduce air conditioning for the stations themselves, this would be more cheaper and more energy efficient then trying to air con every train, I say this because when you stand at the end of the coach with the little droplight down where the emergency door is tends to be a lot cooler then elsewhere in the coach.

Not a bad sounding idea. As a frequent visitor to Barcelona, where their metro trains have been air-conditioned for decades I always manage a wry smile when standing, boiling, on one of the platforms. I wonder if Londoners realise the heat that is going to hit them on the sub-surface platforms when the S stock enters service.

 

[LE Greys]

Even just a battery of big fans would help. They use fans in New York, and it helps a little, however most station in Manhattan itself are fully enclosed. The open sections probably won't mind having air-con trains running through them. With some modification, it might be possible to have an inlet-outlet system constantly replacing the air in enclosed stations, thus ejecting the hot air (which naturally rises anyway) out of the station and easing the burden on train air-con.

 

[jon0844]

It's only the movement of air on the skin that cools people down, which is why a bus stopped in traffic in the blazing sun, or a tube train stuck in a tunnel is a nightmare. When moving, with decent ventilation, I will accept that aircon is not (as) necessary.

I also suggested air conditioning stations, or indeed just extracting heat. Anyone working in that field would know how to draw cool air in, and suck hot air out - simply because of the way in which the air moves (and warm air rising).

We have to accept that deep level tube trains can't remove the hot air and so trains won't be air conditioned, although for any line where trains go into the open (where they can heat up most, especially when stationary at the end of a line) then you could argue that trains could have air conditioning, but have it disabled automatically when approaching the underground sections.

I am sure that once underground, with sufficient cooling at stations and the train not being so hot in the first place, it wouldn't actually get anywhere near as hot before getting to the other end and being cooled again.

 

[LE Greys]

It's only the movement of air on the skin that cools people down, which is why a bus stopped in traffic in the blazing sun, or a tube train stuck in a tunnel is a nightmare. When moving, with decent ventilation, I will accept that aircon is not (as) necessary.

I also suggested air conditioning stations, or indeed just extracting heat. Anyone working in that field would know how to draw cool air in, and suck hot air out - simply because of the way in which the air moves (and warm air rising).

We have to accept that deep level tube trains can't remove the hot air and so trains won't be air conditioned, although for any line where trains go into the open (where they can heat up most, especially when stationary at the end of a line) then you could argue that trains could have air conditioning, but have it disabled automatically when approaching the underground sections.

I am sure that once underground, with sufficient cooling at stations and the train not being so hot in the first place, it wouldn't actually get anywhere near as hot before getting to the other end and being cooled again.

Add to that the piston effect of trains going through tunnels pushing the cooler air around, especially on tube lines and you might be able to minimise the number of station cooling plants. Somewhere like Waterloo or Oxford Circus would be able to distribute cooled air to other stations using this. The system need not work all the time, the evening peak in the summer should be the time of highest demand. At least, that's the theory.

 

[jon0844]

Clearly, it would be very expensive to retrofit air conditioning to some very old stations, but it always surprises me that new stations don't have this consideration, or indeed the purchase of new buses.

There's one bus type that appears to have something that might be air conditioning, or at the very least, forces air in, at the front of the top-deck. This is a place that might offer a nice view, but has very poor (almost non-existent) air flow as there are no openable windows or vents at the front. I've not yet used this bus on a hot enough day to see if there's actually cooled air coming out, or just warm air that helps create some movement.

 

[90019]

There's one bus type that appears to have something that might be air conditioning, or at the very least, forces air in, at the front of the top-deck. This is a place that might offer a nice view, but has very poor (almost non-existent) air flow as there are no openable windows or vents at the front. I've not yet used this bus on a hot enough day to see if there's actually cooled air coming out, or just warm air that helps create some movement.

IIRC, Lothian's fleet of Geminis (possibly the Urbans as well) have aircon.
I'll check if it's actually aircon, as I'm not certain it is.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, having just done a search, I think it was a Wrightbus Gemini or variant (I'm no bus expert!). It's one of the routes that passes Old Street (many buses do, so I can't remember which one I was actually on).

Looked on the web and can't find any mention of aircon, so I think it's just forced induction - like the Class 365s have (I think).

 

[90019]

Yes, having just done a search, I think it was a Wrightbus Gemini or variant (I'm no bus expert!). It's one of the routes that passes Old Street (many buses do, so I can't remember which one I was actually on).

Looked on the web and can't find any mention of aircon, so I think it's just forced induction - like the Class 365s have (I think).

Yeah, I've chacked and the later Geminis at least have forced induction, but the Gemini 2s have aircon.

 

[Metadyneman]

The Polish built Scania "Omnicity" double deckers also have forced air ventilators on the top deck we have some of them in Brighton (horrible badly built plasticky things) but they are mainly used in winter to force warm air round as they are also (very noisy) heater units. I suspect the Wright Gemini's are the same thing.

 

[90019]

The Polish built Scania "Omnicity" double deckers also have forced air ventilators on the top deck we have some of them in Brighton (horrible badly built plasticky things) but they are mainly used in winter to force warm air round as they are also (very noisy) heater units. I suspect the Wright Gemini's are the same thing.

The Geminis are, but the Gemini 2s have actual aircon.