Could battery stock operate the Buxton line?

[py_megapixel]

There have been some rumours recently of Northern ordering battery-fitted cars for some 3-car 331s to make them into battery-electric multiple units (BEMUs) so that they can run up the Windermere branch. The length of this branch is approximately 10 miles.

My reasons suggesting that applying this to the Buxton line might be a good idea is as follows:

• The BEMU 331 would be able to do a whole round-trip of the Windermere branch without charging (i.e. Oxenholme -> Windermere -> Oxenholme) which is a total distance of 20 miles
  
  
• The Buxton line is already electrified between Manchester and Hazel Grove, and the distance from Hazel Grove to Buxton is 16 miles. I know the Buxton line isn't the most efficient because of its hilliness and very frequent stops, but if the extra "4 miles" of range aren't enough I can't see why a variant shouldn't be ordered with two battery-fitted cars instead of just one
  
  
• Trains generally have quite a long layover at Buxton, so some form of charging could be implemented, possibly just involving a very short section of third rail which is only the length of the station platform, which could get it back to Manchester again.

I think the Buxton line would benefit particularly from this because its stops are very frequent the Sprinters really do feel sluggish. Electric operation would be a massive change to this line and it wouldn't surprise me if the 331s with their fantastic acceleration could cut several minutes off the journey time.

Also, once (if?) the 769s appear on Southport-Alderley, two thirds of the Sprinters on the rather congested section between Manchester and Stockport will be serving this line alone. Replacing them with much faster 331s would surely improve time-keeping, if only slightly.

 

[Bald Rick]

Definitely doable. And frequent stops / hilly routes are perfect territory for battery trains, particularly the former.

 

[Energy]

However with recent announcements for 80% electrification would it be more likely to just electrify this route?

 

[Bald Rick]

However with recent announcements for 80% electrification would it be more likely to just electrify this route?

Firstly there haven’t been ‘announcements’ about 80% electrification - that’s is just the output of the decarbonisation study.


Can’t see Buxton being a priority for wires. And there’s a lot of bridges. Battery trains could give electric services, and all the beenfits they bring much more quickly, and probably cheaply. I think the Buxton diagrams are mostly self contained, so it wouldn’t be too much of an issue on the resource side.

 

[Domh245]

Definitely doable. And frequent stops / hilly routes are perfect territory for battery trains, particularly the former.

The fact that it's uphill away from the wires and downhill towards them must also be convenient!

 

[Bald Rick]

The fact that it's uphill away from the wires and downhill towards them must also be convenient!

Indeed so. Like the Valley Lines and East Kilbride.

 

[SeanG]

If the batteries are not powerful enough for the full route, could one option be to part electrify the route from the Buxton end (which would allow for charging at Buxton station also)?

 

[furnessvale]

If the batteries are not powerful enough for the full route, could one option be to part electrify the route from the Buxton end (which would allow for charging at Buxton station also)?

Which would also be handy as the one major uphill section leaving Buxton is from Buxton to just short of Dove Holes.

 

[43096]

If the batteries are not powerful enough for the full route, could one option be to part electrify the route from the Buxton end (which would allow for charging at Buxton station also)?

So you put the power supply in and still cart around the weight of the batteries? If you’re doing that, you might as well string the wires up.

 

[Bald Rick]

So you put the power supply in and still cart around the weight of the batteries? If you’re doing that, you might as well string the wires up.

You wouldn’t need power supply at the Buxton end.

For possibly the umpteenth time, the batteries aren’t that heavy, and for short range like this would certainly be less than the weight of engine / transmission / fuel of a diesel bimode. An electric / battery 4 car 331 would weigh only slightly more than a 3 car 195, for example. You might need 5 of them to run the Buxton diagrams; but even if the battery pack cost an extra £4m per unit (which it wouldn’t), then it would be substantially less than electrifying the 16miles (£100m at best)

 

[A0]

Can’t see Buxton being a priority for wires. And there’s a lot of bridges. Battery trains could give electric services, and all the beenfits they bring much more quickly, and probably cheaply. I think the Buxton diagrams are mostly self contained, so it wouldn’t be too much of an issue on the resource side.

Surprised that Buxton wouldn't be a priority - I'd have thought that one would be something of a 'quick win' - allows for elimination of another DMU route into Manchester Piccadilly, the wires already run to Hazel Grove, so it's 16 miles to Buxton. Wouldn't that leave the Rose Hill Marple service as the only other 'local' DMU service out of Piccadilly ? (As in all the others are heading out of Greater Manchester to Chester, Merseyside or Sheffield).

 

[MarkyT]

You wouldn’t need power supply at the Buxton end.

For possibly the umpteenth time, the batteries aren’t that heavy, and for short range like this would certainly be less than the weight of engine / transmission / fuel of a diesel bimode. An electric / battery 4 car 331 would weigh only slightly more than a 3 car 195, for example. You might need 5 of them to run the Buxton diagrams; but even if the battery pack cost an extra £4m per unit (which it wouldn’t), then it would be substantially less than electrifying the 16miles (£100m at best)

And you could have a high current automated DC charging point* at the terminus for a quick opportunistic charge on turnround layover, and to maintain heat and light without depleting charge if operational difficulties lead to an unexpectedly long wait, and provide sufficient certainty of being able to make a morning start after remote overnight stabling.
* - Vivarail style: a short section of strategically placed conductor rail designed to align with a pick-up shoe on the traction, only energised when a train is present, and connected to an intelligent charger with its own battery that can slowly accumulate charge from a ordinary local DNO power supply between trains.

 

[Bald Rick]

And you could have a high current automated DC charging point* at the terminus for a quick opportunistic charge on turnround layover, and to maintain heat and light without depleting charge if operational difficulties lead to an unexpectedly long wait, and provide sufficient certainty of being able to make a morning start after remote overnight stabling.
* - Vivarail style: a short section of strategically placed conductor rail designed to align with a pick-up shoe on the traction, only energised when a train is present, and connected to an intelligent charger with its own battery that can slowly accumulate charge from a ordinary local DNO power supply between trains.

Why would you do that? No need to, the batteries would have plenty of capacity. And it just adds another load of complexity to the train. If you were to need a terminus end ‘opporutnity’ charger, you’d just do it through a short stretch of AC through the pan feeding off a shore battery trickle charged as you say.

 

[mrgreen]

I'm hoping my local line, Tyne Valley, will be another candidate for battery: Newcastle to Hexham is about 20 miles, fairly level, and electrified already at the Newcastle end. With a lot of stations, level crossings, and low maximum speed it seems to be ideal, at least for the trains terminating at Hexham.
The full Newcastle-Carlisle run might be pushing the range a bit, but I suppose you could electrify as far as Metro Centre (maybe as part of the proposed scheme to reinstate the Bensham Curve in Gateshead) and maybe a bit of the approach to Carlisle (or a section in the middle).

 

[Nym]

Except that the Tyne Valley Line is pretty isolated and isolatable in the network, there isn't much wired at either end that it *must* run onto. So it's unfortunately a better candidate to remain IPMU operated for the foreseeable until electrified.
Even electrifying to just past MetroCentre doesn't really make it stack up, it is in the end a 1 tph line for the full length, with 1tph half length of the line.

Other routes for electrification will come first such as Lostock - Wigan and Salford Crescent to Wigan via Atherton for example.

Not even Diesel Island is a good candidate.

 

[MarkyT]

Why would you do that? No need to, the batteries would have plenty of capacity. And it just adds another load of complexity to the train. If you were to need a terminus end ‘opporutnity’ charger, you’d just do it through a short stretch of AC through the pan feeding off a shore battery trickle charged as you say.

The distance seems reasonable for an out and back run without terminus charging. Having one nonetheless could provide an extra level of operational security though. Traction motors and control systems run natively at DC voltages under 1000V and the batteries will be designed to supply the control system at around the same value, so it is comparatively simple to have a 'plug-in' supply to charge them at that voltage rather than having to have to transform up to 25kv shoreside only to transform straight back down again on board to charge the battery, and you'd avoid the safety issues of having the high voltage in the vicinity trackside. I'm very interested in what Cardiff Metro settle on for their isolated charging points, of which there are to be a fair number. That could help to set a standard for other battery train operations. Using a shoe and rail pick up rather than a manual 'plug-in' arrangement is a design idea proposed by Vivarail for their D-trains, which clearly already have the collector shoe(s), but a suitable auto connector facility need not, of course, bear any physical resemblance to the traditional UK top contact conductor rail configuration.

 

[MarkyT]

Except that the Tyne Valley Line is pretty isolated and isolatable in the network, there isn't much wired at either end that it *must* run onto. So it's unfortunately a better candidate to remain IPMU operated for the foreseeable until electrified. Even electrifying to just past MetroCentre doesn't really make it stack up, it is in the end a 1 tph line for the full length, with 1tph half length of the line.

Possibly a Carlisle-based hydrogen fuel cell cluster, working to Glasgow via Dumfries, Tyne Valley and Cumbrian Coast. Diagrams might bounce back from Glasgow to Stranraer, or that might be reachable out and back by Scottish based battery-electrics, maybe with a bit of extra knitting as far as Maybole or Girvan. Carlisle hydros could also run the Borders Railway if that ever got as far as Carlisle. Perhaps a special cross border operator could be set up to run this group, like the Raaberbahn or GySEV in Austria - Hungary, a kind of 'buffer state railway' specifically created to manage services across a border zone. That has survived as a separate entity from creation during the Austro Hungarian Empire period until the present day, even right through the Iron curtain era when specially picked Hungarian staff were allowed to operate trains routinely into Austrian territory.

 

[geordieblue]

Even electrifying to just past MetroCentre doesn't really make it stack up, it is in the end a 1 tph line for the full length, with 1tph half length of the line.

Not entirely fair - the Metrocentre gets 3tph to Newcastle, one of which comes from the Durham Coast and one of which comes from Morpeth. Electrification to the Metrocentre would remove the Morpeth train from diesel running, and would tie in with Nexus' aspiration to electrify the Durham Coast (although some diagrams might be shifted around to end through-running to Carlisle). I would agree that full electrification of the Tyne Valley isn't needed yet, though; Hexham would be as far as is realistically necessary.

 

[37424]

I think people are getting over excited about Battery trains, a limited reliable range and then you have to be able to charge the things up. According to 'Modern Railways' New Northern it would seem are not at all enthusiastic about the small fleet of Windermere Battery EMU's and as such probably wont be happening. I think Battery trains like Hydrogen are still largely in the further development category and I would concentrate on reducing Diesel under the wires with Electric/Diesel Bi-modes at present especially on Inter-City routes with long Diesel Under the Wires sections, along with some Electrification progress.

 

[Ianno87]

The distance seems reasonable for an out and back run without terminus charging. Having one nonetheless could provide an extra level of operational security though. Traction motors and control systems run natively at DC voltages under 1000V and the batteries will be designed to supply the control system at around the same value, so it is comparatively simple to have a 'plug-in' supply to charge them at that voltage rather than having to have to transform up to 25kv shoreside only to transform straight back down again on board to charge the battery, and you'd avoid the safety issues of having the high voltage in the vicinity trackside. I'm very interested in what Cardiff Metro settle on for their isolated charging points, of which there are to be a fair number. That could help to set a standard for other battery train operations. Using a shoe and rail pick up rather than a manual 'plug-in' arrangement is a design idea proposed by Vivarail for their D-trains, which clearly already have the collector shoe(s), but a suitable auto connector facility need not, of course, bear any physical resemblance to the traditional UK top contact conductor rail configuration.

Quite a few units stable at Buxton overnight IIRC - some overnight charging supply may presumably required for these?

 

[Bald Rick]

I think people are getting over excited about Battery trains, a limited reliable range and then you have to be able to charge the things up. According to 'Modern Railways' New Northern it would seem are not at all enthusiastic about the small fleet of Windermere Battery EMU's and as such probably wont be happening. I think Battery trains like Hydrogen are still largely in the further development category and I would concentrate on reducing Diesel under the wires with Electric/Diesel Bi-modes at present especially on Inter-City routes with long Diesel Under the Wires sections, along with some Electrification progress.

But battery hybrids are in service in Japan, Germany and other countries; in this country we have battery trams in service, and even the Snowdon railway has taken delivery of a battery hybrid loco. Hitachi have just signed a deal with a company for the development of battery packs that could be retrofitted to the Class 800s. Battery trains are coming, and they are coming soon.

 

[Energy]

They may be coming but they aren't the overall solution for diesel trains, batteries still have limited range, are expensive to make, aren't that green to make and the whole pack will have to be replaced in 10 years. There is a short distance to electrify on the Buxton line and Northern have said they don't want a small fleet of battery trains.

 

[pdeaves]

In the greater number of possible cases, battery power must be supplemented by 'something else' to ensure the train can reach appropriate maintenance sites. That 'something else' could be diesel power unit, overhead or third rail electrification or simply strategically placed intermediate charging points.

Clearly, the initial suggestion of Buxton line is sensible as the chosen train retains overhead electric capability. Taking the discussion wider, where suggestions are made of fitting batteries to DMUs in place of their diesel power units (well-known re-engineering company, I am looking at you), consideration must be given to the wider requirements of getting to and from depot without depleting a battery on the main line in rush hour.

 

[Bald Rick]

They may be coming but they aren't the overall solution for diesel trains, batteries still have limited range, are expensive to make, aren't that green to make and the whole pack will have to be replaced in 10 years. There is a short distance to electrify on the Buxton line and Northern have said they don't want a small fleet of battery trains.

I don’t think anyone said they are the overall solution. They are, however, a potential solution for medium distance branch lines with relatively infrequent services with relatively captive rolling stock that have a decent length of electrified line at one or both ends. Battery life is increasing; let’s not forget that most DMUs have their engines replaced midlife, and EMUs regular have new traction equipment fitted. This is no diffferent.

Northern may not have much choice in the matter. If buying a small fleet of battery trains costs £20m, and electrification is £100m, what do you think DfT will instruct them to do?

 

[MarkyT]

But battery hybrids are in service in Japan, Germany and other countries; in this country we have battery trams in service, and even the Snowdon railway has taken delivery of a battery hybrid loco. Hitachi have just signed a deal with a company for the development of battery packs that could be retrofitted to the Class 800s. Battery trains are coming, and they are coming soon.

Agreed, and they can be the perfect complement to a rolling programme of electrification. The greater the mainline mileage that is complete, the more practical through running to divergent branches under battery power becomes, to nearby and even further-flung extremities and without requiring long, inefficient and operationally risky terminal charging cycles (always) being required. Batteries can also allow expensive or difficult gaps in mainline wiring to exist long term or be deferred until other major infrastructure renewal dates make the work more economic and shared possessions less disruptive, and gives the fitted trains a source of power to continue in service during planned or unexpected isolations and keep onboard HVAC and lighting functional at all times. There are immense benefits in having batteries onboard many if not most of the future electric fleet, and they provide a migration path to eliminate the diesel generators in most if not all of the current bi-mode fleet.

 

[py_megapixel]

They may be coming but they aren't the overall solution for diesel trains, batteries still have limited range, are expensive to make, aren't that green to make and the whole pack will have to be replaced in 10 years. There is a short distance to electrify on the Buxton line and Northern have said they don't want a small fleet of battery trains.

They're not green to make, I'll give you that. But the fleet wouldn't actually be that small.

A round trip on the Buxton line is about 2 hours 5 minutes depending on the time of day; some adjustments and the introduction of faster accelerating trains might be able to bring that down to 2 hours so we'll go with that for simplicity.
Add an hour to allow for turnarounds at each end and that's 3 hours. To provide a frequency of every 30 minutes you would need an absolute minimum of 6 units, but in reality the turnarounds might well be longer, the units aren't going to be in service 100% of the time and there are extra services in the peak, so you might want 10 units for that line.
Add however many are needed for Windermere factoring in the occasional airport service (4 units I think they said?) and you already have a fleet of 14. That is already more than the planned fleet of bimode 319s (769s) which would be the alternative solution other than continuing to run it DMU.

 

[py_megapixel]

But battery hybrids are in service in Japan, Germany and other countries; in this country we have battery trams in service, and even the Snowdon railway has taken delivery of a battery hybrid loco. Hitachi have just signed a deal with a company for the development of battery packs that could be retrofitted to the Class 800s. Battery trains are coming, and they are coming soon.

Not to mention the fact that the London Underground has been using battery locomotives for maintainence and rescue purposes since the 1940s.

 

[37424]

But battery hybrids are in service in Japan, Germany and other countries; in this country we have battery trams in service, and even the Snowdon railway has taken delivery of a battery hybrid loco. Hitachi have just signed a deal with a company for the development of battery packs that could be retrofitted to the Class 800s. Battery trains are coming, and they are coming soon.

Well In the case of the 800's it will involve say a short trundle off the wires and then plenty of time to recharge under the wires, that's much less the case with short distance local trains, even with the 800's I'm skeptical how that would work for LNER for instance, yes a battery train might work for a trundle to Harrogate but its not going to get you to Inverness.

Even if we carn't get any progress out of the government for Windermere electrification they could just continue to use the extra DMU's which have been ordered for the route.

Battery and Hydrogen may well come in the next few years but at the moment I think Northern are better off waiting until a major replacement of the 15x fleet needs to be considered probably in the mid 2020's which gives more time for these technologies to develop.

 

[Bald Rick]

Battery and Hydrogen may well come in the next few years but at the moment I think Northern are better off waiting until a major replacement of the 15x fleet needs to be considered probably in the mid 2020's which gives more time for these technologies to develop.

The technology is well developed, and is still developing. It’s worth looking up the website of the company that Hitachi are in partnership with https://hyperdriveinnovation.com/battery-energy-storage/

Essentially with their existing products they can provide a battery pack that has over 500KWh capacity, weighs around 3.5 tonnes and can be fully charged in under an hour. Two of those under a 3 or 4 car EMU, with the necessary racks of power electronics, would easily cover a 50mile range. And that’s before it is tailored to a rail application.

Expect a trial soon, ready for big fleets in next half decade.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

They may be coming but they aren't the overall solution for diesel trains, batteries still have limited range, are expensive to make, aren't that green to make and the whole pack will have to be replaced in 10 years.

Out of interest, how does their power/capacity change over time? Does it slowly decline or does it stay reasonably flat for some years and then suddenly start going down?

What I'm getting at is... assuming you are correct that batteries need replacing after 10 years - is there a risk that after, say, 8 years, the battery would no longer be giving the same acceleration as it did when it was new, or would take longer to recharge, even though it's not yet life expired?