Face coverings mandatory in shops in Scotland

[talldave]

Worth bearing in mind that the shops have generally indicated that they don't want the masks, the staff mostly hate the idea, and both customers and staff will be constantly fiddling with the masks and then touching the goods. All social distancing will also be out of the window because of the magic masks.

Nobody will be valuing your health at all

Let's hope that enough rebel to make any enforcement action impractical. We can eliminate coronaphobia.

 

[bramling]

Let's hope that enough rebel to make any enforcement action impractical. We can eliminate coronaphobia.

There could be some unpleasantness along the way. On the trains my place has had issues this week with people pulling handles to report someone not wearing a mask, plus a couple of altercations as a result of someone taking it upon themselves to walk through a train checking mask compliance. Dread to think what might happen in shops, as I think the worst of the terrified lot are still keeping off trains, but perhaps not shops.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

There could be some unpleasantness along the way. On the trains my place has had issues this week with people pulling handles to report someone not wearing a mask, plus a couple of altercations as a result of someone taking it upon themselves to walk through a train checking mask compliance. Dread to think what might happen in shops, as I think the worst of the terrified lot are still keeping off trains, but perhaps not shops.

OMG

What is the world coming to?

Self-appointed, self-righteous enforcers.

1) prosecute the handle pullers, "penalty for improper use £25";
2) depends on relative size, if it's a big bloke doing the checking I would have a different response than to a lightweight type!
3) In shops, time for the 'unmasked avenger', ripping off other peoples face coverings!

Locally we have a 'gang' of motorcyclists investigating motorbike crimes. They are generally laughed at, expecting an instant police response to them finding a piece of mudguard from a stolen delivery moped!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

OK, here we go, the Royal Society paper on the subject:

Royal Society Face Masks for the General Public

It is dated 4th May, so whether any additional work has been done to further the 'knowledge' I don't yet know.

The key point is that the research relied upon refers to the use of surgical masks, not disposable ones or cloth face coverings. I suggest you skip the summary and key points, then return to them after reading the detail.

Conclusion: mmm, maybe, possibly, anecdotally, slight benefit in certain narrowly defined situations, but hell why not, it doesn't increase transmission. Other countries have them, so we should as well.

 

[MikeWM]

OK, here we go, the Royal Society paper on the subject:

Royal Society Face Masks for the General Public

It is dated 4th May, so whether any additional work has been done to further the 'knowledge' I don't yet know.

The key point is that the research relied upon refers to the use of surgical masks, not disposable ones or cloth face coverings. I suggest you skip the summary and key points, then return to them after reading the detail.

Conclusion: mmm, maybe, possibly, anecdotally, slight benefit in certain narrowly defined situations, but hell why not, it doesn't increase transmission. Other countries have them, so we should as well.

I particularly like this bit:

To our knowledge, only two studies have been performed that studied the effectiveness of mask use by the source patient with a viral respiratory infection (mostly influenza) and tracking the development of viral infection symptoms in others. Both studies used surgical masks and monitored transmission to household members. Both studies have flaws...

{One} was stopped early because of poor enrollment; the study had only a 38% chance of detecting a 40% additional protection by masking. Not unexpectedly, the study found no masking effectiveness.

{The other} studied the effectiveness of the use of a surgical mask placed on a subject with a viral respiratory infection living in a household of two or more people. They found that 15% of subjects not assigned to mask wearing wore them, while 2% of subjects assigned to wear them did not. Also, probably owing to a mild flu season, only 1 to 2% of household contacts developed illness versus the expected 20%. This resulted in only a 9% chance of detecting a 50% decrease in illnesses in mask-wearing households. However, after adjustments for mask wearing in the index cases, the study found that wearing a surgical mask by the infected person reduced the frequency of viral respiratory infection in household members by 77% (95% CI 11 to 94% reduction).

So, only two studies, both of which were rubbish, one said there was no effect and the other did, but only 'after adjustment' and only with surgical masks (and only for 'household members', ie. people you spend many hours *every day* with).

For the President of the Royal Society to make such inflammatory remarks on such nonsense evidence is, frankly, embarassing for an institution which generally has a rather high reputation.

 

[takno]

OK, here we go, the Royal Society paper on the subject:

Royal Society Face Masks for the General Public

It is dated 4th May, so whether any additional work has been done to further the 'knowledge' I don't yet know.

The key point is that the research relied upon refers to the use of surgical masks, not disposable ones or cloth face coverings. I suggest you skip the summary and key points, then return to them after reading the detail.

Conclusion: mmm, maybe, possibly, anecdotally, slight benefit in certain narrowly defined situations, but hell why not, it doesn't increase transmission. Other countries have them, so we should as well.

Another paper which basically quotes the same two papers to say that surgical masks help in surgical settings with direct daily contact with immunocompromised patients, and might help in household settings. It combines it with a couple of other studies that show that cloth masks are possibly half-as-useful (no good summary provided of the protocol or quality of the cloth masks) in specific experiments on viruses. It then goes on to summarise how there is no evidence at all of it having helped against Covid based on national policies, and in fact a small suggestion in the Czechia/Austria case that they definitely didn't make a difference.

Faced with this overwhelming lack of any reason, they resort to the precautionary principle, an important medical principle which also applies to mandatory carrying of lucky clover, which they clearly forgot to cover in their literature survey.

Finally they observe that if you don't mandate it people won't do it (without delving into why), whereas if you do mandate it it will be enforced by social pressure (angry lynch mobs), which is good because it might (but probably won't) provide some level of protection, particularly to people who have forgotten their lucky clover.

They briefly consider the fact that poor people, who they clearly consider to be disgusting, will have to be taught about washing them to make sure the dirty mask doesn't kill them, and go off on a tangent about cleaning N95 respirators with specialist equipment that almost nobody will have in their home. This is considered simply something we'll have to sort out. What isn't covered is that it's uncomfortable, alienating and needlessly puts people off taking economic and social actions we need them to take as a society.

Basically this is even less of the same, provided to us as something that we'll finally have to listen to because this time it's being told to us by a bunch of establishment poshos

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Both, hence my reference to snowflakexperts earlier today.

@takno - you forgot the lucky rabbits foot - everything which helps, even by a miniscule amount, must be fully deployed in 'the fight against the virus'.

I believe in science. I accept expert opinions where the conclusions are properly reached and supported by solid evidence.

The rest of us can opine freely, no-one has to take any notice, as we are not putting ourselves forward as leading scientists who 'ought to be listened to'. I really don't wish to align myself with the likes of Trump and the 'who needs experts' contingent but sometimes, just sometimes they do have a point.

As for the Baxenden Study it conclusively proves that wearing a pink and yellow striped shirt out of the house at all times virtually guarantees no spread of the virus. Firstly, because I definitely don't have it and secondly, everyone runs a mile laughing when they see you!

 

[kez19]

The biggest one being the drop in the virus's incidence in the community. I could understand if face coverings were mandated back in March, but not now.

I would have argued the toss had it been back in January as a precaution at least (again for the sake of it both governments)...

 

[PG]

Life needs to continue in the meantime as the alternative (living in caves and hunting woolly mammoth) does not appeal personally.

Shortage of woolly mammoths round your way?

 

[Bantamzen]

Both, hence my reference to snowflakexperts earlier today.

@takno - you forgot the lucky rabbits foot - everything which helps, even by a miniscule amount, must be fully deployed in 'the fight against the virus'.

I believe in science. I accept expert opinions where the conclusions are properly reached and supported by solid evidence.

The rest of us can opine freely, no-one has to take any notice, as we are not putting ourselves forward as leading scientists who 'ought to be listened to'. I really don't wish to align myself with the likes of Trump and the 'who needs experts' contingent but sometimes, just sometimes they do have a point.

As for the Baxenden Study it conclusively proves that wearing a pink and yellow striped shirt out of the house at all times virtually guarantees no spread of the virus. Firstly, because I definitely don't have it and secondly, everyone runs a mile laughing when they see you!

I've conducted my own within my local neighbourhood and the results of the Bantamzen Study concludes that banging pots outside your front door on a Thursday evening seems to coincide with a reduction of national infection rates, and none of the neighbours studies (by watching them out of the window) have contracted covid. So I mean, it can't hurt right?

 

[JamesT]

There is a new Royal Society report on mask wearing linked from https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-face-masks-and-coverings-work-act-now#

The study found:

• Cloth face coverings are effective in protecting the wearer and those around them.
• Behavioural factors are involved, including how people understand the virus and their perceptions of risk, trust in experts and government, can adversely affect mask wearing.
• Face masks need to be seen as part of ‘policy packages’ with other measures such as social distancing and hand hygiene.
• Clear and consistent policies and public messaging are key to the adoption of wearing face masks and coverings by the general public

 

[takno]

There is a new Royal Society report on mask wearing linked from https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-face-masks-and-coverings-work-act-now#

That's exactly the same source data as all the other "meta analyses", with much the same executive summary conclusions, which are just as utterly unsupported by the evidence provided in the paper. The nicer layout and more hectoring tone notwithstanding, this adds absolutely nothing to the debate

 

[Bantamzen]

That's exactly the same source data as all the other "meta analyses", with much the same executive summary conclusions, which are just as utterly unsupported by the evidence provided in the paper. The nicer layout and more hectoring tone notwithstanding, this adds absolutely nothing to the debate

Well I suppose if they keep throwing the same, inconclusive studies up the flagpole enough people will salute them eventually.

 

[MikeWM]

There is a new Royal Society report on mask wearing linked from https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-face-masks-and-coverings-work-act-now#

The Royal Society are continuing to embarass themselves with drawing such conclusions from such weak evidence. The paper itself says (on page 30):

Topic : Effectiveness of cloth face coverings

Limitations : No RCTs were able to be included, with estimates come from observational research designs only. Studies all in a healthcare setting in one country. Examined SARS and H1N1 and not COVID-19 setting. Small number of studies.

Level quality of evidence : Moderate-quality (to translate to public setting). No broader community settings (e.g., transport, shops).

To issue such broad conclusions from such poor data is pseudo-science and does nothing for the reputation of the Royal Society.

 

[MattA7]

As someone who has Asperger’s syndrome therefore claustrophobia and panic attacks are a problem and very underweight meaning I get breathless easily Im dreading from tomorrow. I know I would likely be medically exempt however I don’t fancy the thought of being challenged. I’m exempt from wearing seatbelts but at least that has the proper documentation. No such thing exists for the face mask laws.

To make matters worse I’m also deaf in one ear so have difficulties hearing people in places with background noise and used to relay upon lip reading I guess that won’t be a option either

 

[Journeyman]

As someone who has Asperger’s syndrome therefore claustrophobia and panic attacks are a problem and very underweight meaning I get breathless easily Im dreading from tomorrow. I know I would likely be medically exempt however I don’t fancy the thought of being challenged. I’m exempt from wearing seatbelts but at least that has the proper documentation. No such thing exists for the face mask laws.

To make matters worse I’m also deaf in one ear so have difficulties hearing people in places with background noise and used to relay upon lip reading I guess that won’t be a option either

I really feel for you. All of this is going to add up to a huge stress problem. I hope you manage alright. Have you tried wearing a scarf? As far as I can tell, it'll be acceptable under the law, and you might find it feels a bit more normal.

 

[birchesgreen]

As someone who has Asperger’s syndrome therefore claustrophobia and panic attacks are a problem and very underweight meaning I get breathless easily Im dreading from tomorrow. I know I would likely be medically exempt however I don’t fancy the thought of being challenged. I’m exempt from wearing seatbelts but at least that has the proper documentation. No such thing exists for the face mask laws.

To make matters worse I’m also deaf in one ear so have difficulties hearing people in places with background noise and used to relay upon lip reading I guess that won’t be a option either

To be honest i haven't seen any rail staff challenging any non-mask wearers over the last couple of weeks though obviously YMMV

 

[kylemore]

We can wave at the border!

I will be amongst those from Cumbria heading north to shop in places that value our health.

They don't value your health - they just know they have to go along with the window dressing and play-acting.

 

[Journeyman]

To be honest i haven't seen any rail staff challenging any non-mask wearers over the last couple of weeks though obviously YMMV

Shops are a completely different matter, though, as they're much more important to everyone in normal everyday life, and you're bound to get self-righteous idiots who want to play the vigilante.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really feel for you. All of this is going to add up to a huge stress problem. I hope you manage alright. Have you tried wearing a scarf? As far as I can tell, it'll be acceptable under the law, and you might find it feels a bit more normal.

Yeah, it does seem to be a problem that those with an anxiety exemption may be unable to make use of it due to anxiety. Perhaps some sort of "I'm exempt, don't ask me why" badge would help, a bit like the TfL "baby on board" badges.

 

[MattA7]

I really feel for you. All of this is going to add up to a huge stress problem. I hope you manage alright. Have you tried wearing a scarf? As far as I can tell, it'll be acceptable under the law, and you might find it feels a bit more normal.

never thought of a scarf it should be considered acceptable by law and worth a try I guess

Shops are a completely different matter, though, as they're much more important to everyone in normal everyday life, and you're bound to get self-righteous idiots who want to play the vigilante.

this is what’s worrying me although I am likely considered medically exempt I would not like the thought of confrontation.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yeah, it does seem to be a problem that those with an anxiety exemption may be unable to make use of it due to anxiety. Perhaps some sort of "I'm exempt, don't ask me why" badge would help, a bit like the TfL "baby on board" badges.

Isn't the sunflower lanyard already being accepted for that purpose in respect of mask exemptions?

 

[Ian Cunningham]

never thought of a scarf it should be considered acceptable by law and worth a try I guess

Hi Matt - Scarfs are absolutely acceptable -as long as it covers your nose and mouth it's fine

ScotGov has always used the term "face covering" to differentiate from PPE / surgical masks as these are not what they are recommending the general public wear (clinical and business use may be diffenent)

There is guidance from ScotGov as to what constitutes a face covering at https://www.gov.scot/publications/c...e-and-protecting-others/pages/face-coverings/
A couple of relevant points from that link:
By face coverings we do not mean a surgical or other medical grade mask but a covering of the mouth and nose that is made of cloth or other textiles and through which you can breathe,
for example a scarf or religious head covering that covers the mouth and nose.
You may also use, if you prefer, a face visor but it must cover your nose and mouth completely.
And
Discretion is allowed for people who have a health condition, disabled people and those who need to communicate with a person who has difficulties communicating (in relation to speech, language or otherwise) where wearing a face covering would be inappropriate because it would cause difficulty, pain or severe distress or anxiety or because it cannot be worn in the proper manner safely.

I hope that helps a bit - Ian

 

[route101]

Last day before the mask wearing comes into effect tomorrow. I wouldnt say many wear wearing masks in the shops today.

 

[Huntergreed]

Last day before the mask wearing comes into effect tomorrow. I wouldnt say many wear wearing masks in the shops today.

Sadly it is, at least I suspect, the last non-mask day for a long long time, going by what she said in her briefing today. (It was something along the lines of “mask wearing needs to be as automatic as seatbelt wearing in the months ahead”)

 

[Journeyman]

Last day before the mask wearing comes into effect tomorrow. I wouldnt say many wear wearing masks in the shops today.

About 15% at most when I was out earlier. My coping strategy is going to be only shopping when absolutely necessary, and going to Berwick-upon-Tweed for fun stuff.

 

[MattA7]

Hi Matt - Scarfs are absolutely acceptable -as long as it covers your nose and mouth it's fine

ScotGov has always used the term "face covering" to differentiate from PPE / surgical masks as these are not what they are recommending the general public wear (clinical and business use may be diffenent)

There is guidance from ScotGov as to what constitutes a face covering at https://www.gov.scot/publications/c...e-and-protecting-others/pages/face-coverings/
A couple of relevant points from that link:
By face coverings we do not mean a surgical or other medical grade mask but a covering of the mouth and nose that is made of cloth or other textiles and through which you can breathe,
for example a scarf or religious head covering that covers the mouth and nose.
You may also use, if you prefer, a face visor but it must cover your nose and mouth completely.
And
Discretion is allowed for people who have a health condition, disabled people and those who need to communicate with a person who has difficulties communicating (in relation to speech, language or otherwise) where wearing a face covering would be inappropriate because it would cause difficulty, pain or severe distress or anxiety or because it cannot be worn in the proper manner safely.

I hope that helps a bit - Ian

thanks. Will give a lightweight Scarf a try and see if it’s any easier

Sadly it is, at least I suspect, the last non-mask day for a long long time, going by what she said in her briefing today. (It was something along the lines of “mask wearing needs to be as automatic as seatbelt wearing in the months ahead”)

at least with seatbelts I have the relevant Medical exemption certificate officially recognized by law there is no such thing for the face mask laws but that’s hopefully because such law is temporary

 

[Edgeley]

An article opposing face masks:

Why Wearing Face Masks Shouldn't be Made Compulsory in the UK

The UK government is coming under intense pressure to make the wearing of face masks mandatory in shops and other enclosed public places in England, but if that happens, it would be the wrong move.

sputniknews.com

"We need at this stage to be getting back to the old, February 2020 normal, not consenting to an anti-human, New Abnormal."

 

[Journeyman]

An article opposing face masks:

Why Wearing Face Masks Shouldn't be Made Compulsory in the UK

The UK government is coming under intense pressure to make the wearing of face masks mandatory in shops and other enclosed public places in England, but if that happens, it would be the wrong move.

sputniknews.com

"We need at this stage to be getting back to the old, February 2020 normal, not consenting to an anti-human, New Abnormal."

It's a good article, but I'm not convinced it's a reputable source, which makes it very easy for supporters of mask-wearing to oppose.

 

[route101]

About 15% at most when I was out earlier. My coping strategy is going to be only shopping when absolutely necessary, and going to Berwick-upon-Tweed for fun stuff.

To be fair this week im getting used to the face mask. This was shopping out for shoes, which were much needed.