Group Save tickets

[ColinInWales]

On a Saturday at the end of June I travelled from Waterbeach to Cambridge with my wife, son and his partner. At the ticket machine at Waterbeach station we were able to purchase a GroupSave 4 ticket meaning that the total fare was £5.10 (we got singles because we thought we may get a taxi back).

In the end we decided to come back by train. The ticket office at Cambridge was closed so we purchased the tickets from the machines. However, none of the machines offered GroupSave tickets (the one at Waterbeach actually applied the GroupSave fare automatically) so we had to pay a total of £10.20.

Although the overcharge is small it seemed wrong in principal so I emailed National Express East Anglia and received the following reply:

Thank you for your email.

I am sorry that you were unable to get the group save discount when you
purchased your tickets from our self service machine at Cambridge station.
Unfortunately I am not able to offer a refund on this occasion as this is a
promotional discount that we are not obliged to make available at all
times. I appreciate this is not the answer you were hoping for and
apologise if this disappoints you.

Once again thank you for getting in touch.

Yours sincerely,

Karen James
Customer Relations Advisor
National Express
www.nationalexpress.com

Before I take this further can anyone on the forum advise me as to whether NEEA are correct in saying they do not have to offer GroupSave fares?

Many thanks.

 

[John @ home]

can anyone on the forum advise me as to whether NEEA are correct in saying they do not have to offer GroupSave fares?

They are correct in saying they don't have to offer GroupSave fares at all because that fare is not Regulated.

Where their argument is weak is in the particular circumstances of this case.

The fact that you were able to obtain GroupSave 4 tickets from the ticket machine at Waterbeach shows that this is technically possible. But Waterbeach is managed by First Capital Connect and Cambridge is managed by National Express East Anglia (NXEA). I don't know whether it is possible for the type of ticket machine installed at Cambridge to offer this discount.

The ticket office at Cambridge was closed

Was it scheduled to be closed at that time? The advertised opening hours for the ticket office at Cambridge are:

Monday-Friday 05:10-23:00
Saturday 05:10-23:00
Sunday 07:00-22:55

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/cbg/details.html

The hours are set in one of the franchise documents and there is a complex statutory procedure for changing these. If this was an unscheduled closure, then the train company has a responsibility to ensure that passengers are not disadvantaged, for example by advising them to buy tickets on the train where they are not available from the ticket machine.

My next port of call would be Passenger Focus. The are likely to arrange for one of their Passenger Link Managers to discuss the case with an NXEA manager.

 

[222007]

Although it doesnt effect you Groupsave tickets are not Valid on CrossCountry trains services if you ever use our trains

 

[tony_mac]

Groupsave tickets are not Valid on CrossCountry trains services

I know that CrossCountry believe that - but the NRCoC says otherwise.

Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

This rule is to stop passengers being penalised by hidden rules that they can't possibly know about. Such as this one!

 

[Matt Taylor]

Groupsave is not a fare it's a discount, talk of regulated fares is a red herring.

For the record my opinion is that NXEA should give a refund for the circumstances that have been detailed above, surely the fact that it is a discount and not a fare means that you could board without a ticket and then get the discount from the on train retail staff (if they exist on that line).




Just noticed that Waterbeach is operated by First Capital Connect whereas Cambridge is operated by NXEA hence the differing offers on the self service machines.

 

[John @ home]

For the record my opinion is that NXEA should give a refund for the circumstances that have been detailed above.

Agreed.

Groupsave is not a fare it's a discount, talk of regulated fares is a red herring.

Sorry, I should have referred to it as a discount in this instance. Some TOCs treat GroupSave as a discount.

Origin: WATERBEACH 7079 WBC
Destination: CAMBRIDGE 7022 CBG
Discount: GROUP SAVE 4 GS4
Adult: 4
Child: 0
Route: ANY PERMITTED
Price: SDS £5.20 FCC

Others treat it as a fare.

Origin: NOTTINGHAM 1826 NOT
Destination: DERBY 1823 DBY
Discount: PUBLIC
Adult: 4
Child: 0
Route: EMIDSTRAINS.ONLY
Price: GS4 £40.40 2O

Whether it's a non-regulated fare or a non-statutory discount doesn't make a lot of difference to the passenger.

Groupsave tickets are not Valid on CrossCountry trains services

the NRCoC says otherwise.

Agreed - sometimes! Due to the route printed on the ticket, CrossCountry can refuse Nottingham - Derby GroupSave but must accept Cambridge - Ely GroupSave.

The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

 

[barrykas]

Due to the route printed on the ticket, CrossCountry can refuse Nottingham - Derby GroupSave but must accept Cambridge - Ely GroupSave.

I disagree. The public information on GroupSave makes it quite clear which TOCs accept it and which don't. And CrossCountry are in the 'don't' category, as they have their own "Small Groups" product.

I refer you to this page on the National Rail site.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[tony_mac]

The public information that you don't see when you buy the ticket?
The first time you are likely to find out that XC don't accept it is when you are on one of their trains.

If only there was some rule that protected customers from these sort of hidden conditions.....

Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

 

[John @ home]

I disagree. The public information on GroupSave makes it quite clear which TOCs accept it and which don't. And CrossCountry are in the 'don't' category, as they have their own "Small Groups" product.

I refer you to this page on the National Rail site.

The relevant information on the linked page is

GroupSave

Who offers GroupSave?

c2c, Chiltern Railways, East Midlands Trains, First Capital Connect, First Great Western, ScotRail, London Midland, London Overground, National Express East Anglia, Southeastern, Southern and South West Trains

That provided no evidence that a GroupSave ticket bought at an NXEA station where the fare is set by FCC is not valid on a CrossCountry train. It says that these companies offer GroupSave. That is in accordance with the Fares Manual entry for Waterbeach - Cambridge Groupsave, which I quoted in post #6 above, where the code FCC indicates that the fare is set by First Capital Connect. The entry for Ely - Cambridge Groupsave is similar. Ely station is also managed by National Express East Anglia.

But for the moment, let's assume that somewhere else there is a clear public statement that an FCC GroupSave ticket is not valid on a CrossCountry train.

Then that statement must be considered together with the passenger's rights set out in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC).

National Rail Conditions of Carriage

These Conditions set out your rights and any restrictions to those rights. The Train Companies may give you more extensive rights than those set out in these Conditions and, if they do so, these may be found in each Train Company’s Passenger’s Charter or other publications. Details of where you can find this information will be available when you buy your ticket. The Train Companies may not give you less extensive rights, except in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets where the relevant condition(s) specifically allow them to do so. These Conditions set out the minimum level of rights you are entitled to expect. ...

The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

No such restriction or prohibition is shown on a Ely - Cambridge Groupsave ticket. Plainly, if there is a clear public statement that an FCC GroupSave ticket is not valid on a CrossCountry train, then that statement is in conflict with the NRCoC unless that prohibition is shown on the ticket.

This conflict would be resolved by the relevant legislation.

The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999

Written contracts
7. - (2) If there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992083.htm

Therefore CrossCountry must accept Ely - Cambridge GroupSave tickets.

 

[ColinInWales]

Was it scheduled to be closed at that time?

Have just checked on the times. We arrived at the station at 22:50 and the ticket office was closed. We sepnt some time seeing if any machine would issue a GroupSave ticket but the timed credit card receipt shows 22:58 so I have good evidence that we were there before the scheduled closing time.

Will go back to NXEA before taking it up with Passenger Focus.

Thanks everyone for all the information - a great Forum!

 

[yorkie]

Although it doesnt effect you Groupsave tickets are not Valid on CrossCountry trains services if you ever use our trains

CrossCountry are obliged to accept any ticket that is valid along the route, providing a restriction is not shown on the ticket restricting it to a particular TOC(s) or prohibiting it's use on a particular TOC(s).

The National Conditions of Carriage makes it clear that any such prohibition will be "shown on the ticket".

So if the ticket is routed "Not XC" or "NXEA/FCC Only" or similar, you can refuse to accept it and issue a new ticket. If it is routed "ANY PERMITTED", you can't refuse to accept it.

 

[Ferret]

CrossCountry are obliged to accept any ticket that is valid along the route, providing a restriction is not shown on the ticket restricting it to a particular TOC(s) or prohibiting it's use on a particular TOC(s).

The National Conditions of Carriage makes it clear that any such prohibition will be "shown on the ticket".

So if the ticket is routed "Not XC" or "NXEA/FCC Only" or similar, you can refuse to accept it and issue a new ticket. If it is routed "ANY PERMITTED", you can't refuse to accept it.

I've been waiting for this to be brought up on here! I'm of the same opinion as Yorkie that XC would be in breach of contract for not taking a Group Save ticket for the reasons described above. I plan to raise this issue with the XC revenue department in due course.....

 

[222007]

I've been waiting for this to be brought up on here! I'm of the same opinion as Yorkie that XC would be in breach of contract for not taking a Group Save ticket for the reasons described above. I plan to raise this issue with the XC revenue department in due course.....

In all fairness i've never seen groupsave ticket down Cambridge way. They were very well used between Hinckley and Leicester for football and rugby days where we can no longer sell them

 

[yorkie]

I've been waiting for this to be brought up on here! I'm of the same opinion as Yorkie that XC would be in breach of contract for not taking a Group Save ticket for the reasons described above. I plan to raise this issue with the XC revenue department in due course.....

Cool You could mention to them that if they don't want to accept them, that they can ask the lead operator to ensure that they are routed "Not XC". That would avoid all confusion and comply with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. And, importantly for you and your colleagues, make your life easier too!

If the lead operator refused to do this I suggest XC contacts ATOC, and ask them for a solution that complies with NCoC.

This whole GroupSave thing is a ridiculous mess caused by the daft way that Privatisation was implemented in this country. Most of the TOCs agree to be part of it, but not all. This causes confusion. If TOCs don't want to allow GroupSave discounts on the tickets that they price, then that's up to them, but they shouldn't be able to say that such tickets are not valid on their trains. However, if that situation is unavoidable then so be it, but the tickets must be routed appropriately.

The key wording is:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

If it said something like "will be contained within a validity code that can be obtained by enquiring at a station or from National Rail Enquiries" then they'd be able to get away with it. But it doesn't say that, so they can't.

 

[bnm]

I've been waiting for this to be brought up on here! I'm of the same opinion as Yorkie that XC would be in breach of contract for not taking a Group Save ticket for the reasons described above. I plan to raise this issue with the XC revenue department in due course.....

Not the first time XCs alledged non-acceptance of GroupSave has cropped up on this forum.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=421136#post421136

 

[Failed Unit]

If you want a strange restriction on groupsave look at Scotland.

Group save tickets are only valid on Glasgow - Edinburgh services (for this example). So you can buy a group save ticket from Linlithgow - Edinburgh, but you are NOT allowed to use trains to / from Dunblane. You are told this at the ticket office, and the restriction itself is not that unreasonable as it still leaves you with 2 trains per hour.

It is wierd however as you arrive at Linlithgow at say x30. You get the first train that comes along, if you are a causal user how do you know where it has come from. Even if you are a regular user you normally say 170 = Glasgow. 158 = Dunblane, but 170's sometime run to Dunblane so short of asking someone you could be caught out. However I would be very surprised if a guard would bother with you in this situation.

 

[yorkie]

It is wierd however as you arrive at Linlithgow at say x30. You get the first train that comes along, if you are a causal user how do you know where it has come from. Even if you are a regular user you normally say 170 = Glasgow. 158 = Dunblane, but 170's sometime run to Dunblane so short of asking someone you could be caught out. However I would be very surprised if a guard would bother with you in this situation.

I'd like to see someone in that situation refuse to pay again, and say "see you in court", I would be very surprised if it reached court. And if it did, I'd be confident that the customer would win.

 

[ColinInWales]

An update to the saga that started this thread.

Thanks to Passenger Focus a cheque is on its way from NXEA plus some vouchers as compensation for the way they handled the complaint!

 

[reb0118]

If you want a strange restriction on groupsave look at Scotland.

Group save tickets are only valid on Glasgow - Edinburgh services (for this example). So you can buy a group save ticket from Linlithgow - Edinburgh, but you are NOT allowed to use trains to / from Dunblane. You are told this at the ticket office, and the restriction itself is not that unreasonable as it still leaves you with 2 trains per hour.

It is weird however as you arrive at Linlithgow at say x30. You get the first train that comes along, if you are a causal user how do you know where it has come from. Even if you are a regular user you normally say 170 = Glasgow. 158 = Dunblane, but 170's sometime run to Dunblane so short of asking someone you could be caught out. However I would be very surprised if a guard would bother with you in this situation.

Also not technically valid on the Benhar route as well. However you will not be penalised as most guards will think you have penalised yourself enough by adding up to 50 minutes to your journey.