Blackpool South, Colne and Ormskirk timetabling

[GTR fail]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/blackpool-south-line-stock.205897/

I need to travel to St Annes this summer. I was looking at the times and the connection at Preston is atrocious! The train from London arrives in at xx:37 whilst the train to st Anne’s departs at xx:35. Considering the train starts at Preston (so no reason for passengers from Colne wanting to travel to Glasgow), why doesn’t the train depart 10 minutes or so later?!

 

[PHILIPE]

Actually whilst I am on this thread, I need to travel to St Annes this summer. I was looking at the times and the connection at Preston is atrocious! The train from London arrives in at xx:37 whilst the train to st Anne’s departs at xx:35. Considering the train starts at Preston (so no reason for passengers from Colne wanting to travel to Glasgow), why doesn’t the train depart 10 minutes or so later?!

Because if you did you would possibly break a connection when it came back

 

[Esker-pades]

Actually whilst I am on this thread, I need to travel to St Annes this summer. I was looking at the times and the connection at Preston is atrocious! The train from London arrives in at xx:37 whilst the train to st Anne’s departs at xx:35. Considering the train starts at Preston (so no reason for passengers from Colne wanting to travel to Glasgow), why doesn’t the train depart 10 minutes or so later?!

For a start, attempting to link all services to the arrival from London is impossible, and would negatively impact on all the people connecting to the Blackpool South train coming from other places.

But, let's assume that only people from that ex-London service want to connect to the Blackpool South service.

The minimum connection time at Preston 8 minutes, so the Blackpool South service would need to depart at XX:46 (it seems to be XX:38 for some arrivals from London, and we don't want to break connections for those).

There is a path from Preston to Kirkham & Wesham at that time. We run 11 minutes later to Blackpool South, arriving at XX:20.

However, departures back from Blackpool South are at XX:13, so that would need to be shifted forward 11 minutes too. That puts us at Kirkham & Wesham at XX:50. We'd need a couple of minutes of pathing allowance so that we don't conflict with the York to Blackpool North service that passes. XX:52 departure from there to Preston, arriving at XX:03. At this point, the unit goes on to form the XX:57 to Colne. Clearly, we've missed that time.

We depart as soon as we can for Colne at XX:05. Hang on, XX:07 (there's an XX:04 departure to Manchester that we'd have to wait for). We're 10 minutes later than currently until we get to Blackburn, where we have to wait another 4 minutes to avoid conflicting with the Rochdale - Clitheroe service. That puts us at XX:38 from Blackburn, arriving into Colne at XX:21. We've missed the XX:11 return that currently exists. We depart at XX:25 back to Preston, arriving there at XX:35. That's too close to the XX:38 arrival from York (it uses the same line from Rose Grove to Preston). We have to abandon that idea.

Maybe we shuffle services around. Blackpool South diagrams run as follows:
Preston - Blackpool South - Preston - Colne - Preston - Ormskirk - Preston (then repeat).

Perhaps the Colne service operates as a standalone shuttle and we run Blackpool South - Preston - Ormskirk and return.

The next Ormskirk service is at XX:26. Sadly, we can't have a unit dwell in a through platform from XX:03 to XX:26 at Preston. We do have the capacity to dwell to XX:17 though. That means we can depart betwee XX:05 and XX:17. Hang on, XX:07 to XX:17 (that XX:04 departure).

Of course, if we retime the southbound Ormskirk service, we have to retime the northbound one (single track branch line). That means trains have to pass either before Farington Curve Junction or at Rufford station. Now we turn our attention to the northbound service.

That runs at XX:01 from Ormskirk, arriving into Preston at XX:33 to form the XX:35 to Blackpool South. However, we've retimed this XX:35 to XX:46. Platform capacity at Preston means that the XX:33 must now arrive at XX:43.

OK, so we can't run the southbound service to pass at Farington Curve Junction because it would need to depart 10 minutes later than it currently does (XX:36) and we don't have the platform capacity at Preston. Rufford?

An XX:43 arrival at Preston would need to depart Rufford at XX:24. That means we really need the ex-Preston service to arrive at Rufford at XX:21, which puts our departure from Preston at XX:03. But, we arrive from Blackpool South at XX:03. So, that doesn't work. We'd also still clash with the XX:04 to Manchester.

Maybe we simplify the diagrams such that we only run Preston - Blackpool South shuttles? Sadly, occupying a platform at Preston for over 40 minutes (XX:03 to XX:46) is not an option, so we'd have to shunt this unit clear to the carriage sidings north of the station.

But then we come up to the problem of unit numbers.

The current Preston - Blackpool South - Preston - Colne - Preston - Ormskirk - Preston (then repeat) diagram can work with a minimum of 5 units.
If we seperate the diagrams out, we use units very inefficiently, because we have dwells of 43 minutes, 54 minutes, and 37 minutes for the Blackpool South, Ormskirk, and Colne services respectively. In total, we'd need 7 units minimum (an extra 2 units) to operate the same service. If we combine the Colne & Ormskirk diagrams, we'd need 6 (an additional unit).


TLDR: Changing one train by 10 minutes causes too many knock on effects.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regarding Ormskirk, an additional unit (which sat spare at Preston anyway for most of the day) has been put into the circuit due to severe unpunctuality, so this could revert to being standalone (i.e. you could operate Ormskirk-Blackpool S and Colne-Preston self-contained or indeed vice versa).

As I understand it, the joining-up of the services was done because it could use slack in Colne-Blackpool S to upgrade Ormskirk to hourly. Adding a unit removes the need for the interworking.

 

[Esker-pades]

Regarding Ormskirk, an additional unit (which sat spare at Preston anyway for most of the day) has been put into the circuit due to severe unpunctuality, so this could revert to being standalone (i.e. you could operate Ormskirk-Blackpool S and Colne-Preston self-contained or indeed vice versa).

As I understand it, the joining-up of the services was done because it could use slack in Colne-Blackpool S to upgrade Ormskirk to hourly. Adding a unit removes the need for the interworking.

That would just put things back to the severely unpunctual situation we had before....

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would just put things back to the severely unpunctual situation we had before....

Prior to the recent changes, Ormskirk services were very, very punctual and were only ever cancelled if the unit failed or staff became ill. OK, they were on an odd 1h10ish frequency, but you could, unlike after those changes, set your watch by them. That involved use of the same number of units as the original interworked service. Throwing in one more (as they now have) would allow a very punctual hourly service as each unit would have about 50 minutes in the 2 hour cycle of layover (as used to be the case, I think, in the 90s, when a 2-unit hourly service passing at Rufford was operated).

Was the separate Colne-Blackpool South service unpunctual? I don't recall it being. It strikes me that the separate services were much more punctual and reliable than the integrated ones.

 

[Esker-pades]

Prior to the recent changes, Ormskirk services were very, very punctual and were only ever cancelled if the unit failed or staff became ill. OK, they were on an odd 1h10ish frequency, but you could, unlike after those changes, set your watch by them. That involved use of the same number of units as the original interworked service. Throwing in one more (as they now have) would allow a very punctual hourly service as each unit would have about 50 minutes in the 2 hour cycle of layover (as used to be the case, I think, in the 90s).

Was the separate Colne-Blackpool South service unpunctual? I don't recall it being.

If we have any interworking, we need that additional unit for punctuality (as you said in post #14: "an additional unit has been put into the circuit due to severe unpunctuality"). That minimum of 6 becomes an actual 7 required. Without interworking, we'd need 7 units (as I stated in post #13). That is more than is required at the moment (5 or 6 with the extra for punctuality).

 

[Bletchleyite]

If we have any interworking, we need that additional unit for punctuality (as you said in post #14: "an additional unit has been put into the circuit due to severe unpunctuality"). That minimum of 6 becomes an actual 7 required. Without interworking, we'd need 7 units (as I stated in post #13). That is more than is required at the moment (5 or 6 with the extra for punctuality).

I'm confused.

Colne-Blackpool South takes 103 minutes. Preston-Ormskirk takes 30 minutes.

Obviously that means Preston-Ormskirk needs two units though it's a bit profligate of layover (effectively 60 minutes in every 2 hour cycle).
Colne-Blackpool S would be a 4 hour cycle with 34 minutes of layover, so 4 units to get hourly. The layover there is a bit low, but as I said I don't recall it being unpunctual in the past when I believe it was run using 4 units. Was it?

Using 5 units, looking at this, was barmy in the extreme! A full cycle - Colne-Preston-Blackpool-Preston-Ormskirk-Preston-Colne would be 69+34+34+30+30+69 = 266 minutes, giving only 34 minutes of layover in a full 5 hour cycle. That's absolute madness to even think that that would work - that's well into disreputable small bus company territory!

Of course with 6 if you do interwork you can use the excess Ormskirk layover on the Colne-Blackpool to make that more punctual.

 

[Bald Rick]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/blackpool-south-line-stock.205897/

I need to travel to St Annes this summer. I was looking at the times and the connection at Preston is atrocious! The train from London arrives in at xx:37 whilst the train to st Anne’s departs at xx:35. Considering the train starts at Preston (so no reason for passengers from Colne wanting to travel to Glasgow), why doesn’t the train depart 10 minutes or so later?!

In short - you can’t please everyone all the time.

The standard hour has the Blackpool South trains do connect pretty well out of a range of trains from across the North West - Stockport / Manchester, Colne and the WCML north are all usually less than 20 minutes; if you’re brave the Liverpool / Wigan arrival is about a 5 minute connection but is same platform and rarely missed (I’ve never seen it break in several goes); and then the Ormskirk is a seemingly tight 2 minutes but guaranteed for most hours as it is the same unit.

Compared to this lot, the number of people ex London for the Blackpool South trains is almost negligible; it is clear that the better connections are provided to the bigger markets. And I say that as someone who has been travelling regularly London to St Annes for around two decades. Besides, it gives me time to spend the connection in the Old Vic on the Fishergate bridge, decent enough.

 

[alangla]

Compared to this lot, the number of people ex London for the Blackpool South trains is almost negligible; it is clear that the better connections are provided to the bigger markets. And I say that as someone who has been travelling regularly London to St Annes for around two decades. Besides, it gives me time to spend the connection in the Old Vic on the Fishergate bridge, decent enough.

This raised a smile for me. The last time I was on a Blackpool South train it was absolutely mobbed with Watford fans heading for Bloomfield Road!
Not suggesting this justifies a timetable recast obviously.

 

[Bald Rick]

This raised a smile for me. The last time I was on a Blackpool South train it was absolutely mobbed with Watford fans heading for Bloomfield Road!
Not suggesting this justifies a timetable recast obviously.

When I do it, it’s usually mobbed with Mancs on the P*ss. Some even have their parents with them.

 

[Bevan Price]

Not trying to say the timetable should change -- but some of the problems at Preston might be solved by reopening the former parcels platforms (the original 1&2) to passenger use. The tracks are still present, the platforms look in reasonable condition. All it needs is to remove the doors in the subway that block access by passengers to the old platforms (the doors can still be opened by staff.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

The standard hour has the Blackpool South trains do connect pretty well out of a range of trains from across the North West - Stockport / Manchester, Colne and the WCML north are all usually less than 20 minutes; if you’re brave the Liverpool / Wigan arrival is about a 5 minute connection but is same platform and rarely missed (I’ve never seen it break in several goes); and then the Ormskirk is a seemingly tight 2 minutes but guaranteed for most hours as it is the same unit.

The problem with this is that the journey planner will tell you to wait 62 minutes, because it doesn't "get" that they are through trains. The timetable needs changing to show this.

Not trying to say the timetable should change -- but some of the problems at Preston might be solved by reopening the former parcels platforms (the original 1&2) to passenger use. The tracks are still present, the platforms look in reasonable condition. All it needs is to remove the doors in the subway that block access by passengers to the old platforms (the doors can still be opened by staff.)

I don't believe it has passenger lifts, which would need to be added? I also half recall (I've been over there once when it was used as a passenger platform when the roof fell in in high winds once) the subway is stepped, this would need modification.

 

[The Planner]

Not trying to say the timetable should change -- but some of the problems at Preston might be solved by reopening the former parcels platforms (the original 1&2) to passenger use. The tracks are still present, the platforms look in reasonable condition. All it needs is to remove the doors in the subway that block access by passengers to the old platforms (the doors can still be opened by staff.)

That has always been an option in any Preston scheme for HS2/resignalling/life expiration etc plans

 

[30907]

Because if you did you would possibly break a connection when it came back

You would specifically, lose the London connection - which currently works southbound with an 8-9 minute connection.
And even if you were able to retime the down train later, it wouldn't be able to wait for a delayed London service, as the turnround time at Blackpool S is minimum.
At least IME trains from BPS run punctually (until the returning weekend crowds from Pleasure Beach cause a problem).