• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

How can the railway cut operational expenditure?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,307
Location
Bolton
One thing which does not quite seem to have registered everywhere just yet is the impact of Covid-19 on the OpEx of the railway. For the moment, of course this was not an immediete concern. In March the Department for Transport managed to get agreements out to the fourteen contractors they manage to cover almost all costs in exchange for 2% fees. It seems this was done in a drastic hurry because it happened so many weeks before Transport Scotland and Transport for Wales got amended terms out to their contractors. It has been widely reported that HM Treasury are unhappy with the way this deal was done (including by RAIL and Chris Stokes, among others), and they most certainly are all over the negotiations for the renewal of these which is coming in just a few months in September. Rodger Ford reports in his June Informed Sources that this is costing around £900 million / month in total, factoring additional support to Network Rail.

We could speculate on why the Treasury were 'bounced' into spending this much money, but maybe that's not too helpful. However one looks at it though, in addition to the whole-economy support (such as Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme), many industries got nothing at all, and even Local Authorities and charities have only been offered a portion of lost funding, while the railway has broadly managed to scoop up close to 100% funding for the first six months - this looks like a stand-out deal. So the question I seek to pose in this thread is this: how could the railway industry, mainly with a focus on the fourteen TOCs and Network Rail, reduce current expenditure to help weather the pandemic?

It is worth noting that if the government are willing to drop their 'avoid public transport' message, there may be some extra ticket revenue that can support this calculation a bit. I imagine that, again, the Treasury are all over this. However, without much sign of that coming forward as yet it is almost impossible to see significant extra revenue coming in. I think also even if the government did lift the message, social distancing on trains and the various other new things like mask wearing would make it very difficult to attract large enough numbers back to avoid a spending cut. This could be discussed more thoroughly in a seperate thread.

NB that this thread concerns the picture in England only. Contracts at Merseyrail, TfL Rail and London Overground are not managed directly through DfT but will be likely to face retrenchment too in some form or another.

The obvious thing that could be cut is the management fee - Direct Awards have been done with it at 1% before, and the contractors don't have much bargaining power in the matter. Even there though one wonders how much more tolerance there is among the twelve who've won their contracts competitively.

After that, these are the areas where most costs come from the following in proportion according to RDG:

1593455867671.png
  • 33% Leasing and maintaining trains
  • 25% Staff
  • 17% infrastructure maintentence
  • 8% Payments to government
  • 5% Fuel and energy
  • 2% Train operator profit
So where could spending be trimmed? Well we have dealt with the train operator profit item first and foremost which is currently subject to negotiation. So let's look at the other effects of other costs:

Train leasing
I can't see much of a saving here, but I wonder if renegotiation of the leases to delay payments are being looked at? Redeploying rolling stock to where it will do more work or save money may be possible. Delaying the introduction of new services and asking to delay start dates on new leases is possible.

Train maintenence, fuel and electricity
What cost savings are available from timetable cuts in terms of maintenence, as a proportion of the lease costs? Cutting some timetables might be very unpopular in the age of social distancing, especially if it leads to rolling stock being 'stopped' - but might there be routes where this works out well? For example cutting from 3 to 2tph on fast services from London to Birmingham and Manchester. Some ideas about how to save fuel specifially were offered in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/timetable-changes-for-the-decarbonisation-agenda.205930/ 'Peak Spreading' has been identified specifically as a potential cost-saving measure, and we could certainly see some reductions in service with all trains running at maximum length, but how can this be translated into hard savings within a few months?

Staff
Most businesses have tried to reduce staff costs by withdrawing paid overtime, offering unpaid leave or transfers / using internal secondments to fill vacancies, and freezing hiring and pay or maybe offering voluntary redundancy. Going further than this would be asking for voluntary pay cuts, which many firms have successfully implemented for a year or two if led appropriately by senior management accepting a slightly larger cut. Compulsory redundancy is probably a step too far, on the basis that timetables may be restored to higher levels within a few years.

Infrastructure
Routine maintainence is probably mostly safety critical or beneficial work being brought forward (e.g. Kilsby Tunnel), which represents better than usual value for money. Are there any oppurtunities if routes are quieter in terms of weekly train movements, though? Hard to imagine there's much.

Payments to government
No longer relevant

Administration
Unclear. Background updates deferred or cancelled?

Any more ideas? Where will the Treasury seek to extract their 'pound of flesh'?
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,895
It will be very simple. Treasury will tell DfT to find x%. DfT will pass on that same x% to Network Rail (and other agencies, including Highways England). It will then ask the operators for options to achieve the x%.

NR could do it through reducing renewals expenditure. It has been done before when cash was tight, not least by BR in the early 90s. And it’s been a while since there has been a ‘management efficiency programme’, I think the last one was 6 years ago, which is a longer gap than normal.

TOCs could do it by reducing services, particularly those that are resource intensive, and cutting back on staff, for example at ticket offices and I dare not mention the other potential big staff saving.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
23,371
Seems to be a circle that can't be squared - on the one hand the government suggesting an infrastructure led recovery and on the other hand the government requiring a massive reduction in operating cost - running fewer services doesn't lend itself to enhancements being required.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,895
Seems to be a circle that can't be squared - on the one hand the government suggesting an infrastructure led recovery and on the other hand the government requiring a massive reduction in operating cost - running fewer services doesn't lend itself to enhancements being required.

Ah - but the operational expenditure reduction could be temporary. Enhancements are permanent, and in any event by the time many are finished demand may well be back to ‘normal’
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
23,371
Ah - but the operational expenditure reduction could be temporary. Enhancements are permanent, and in any event by the time many are finished demand may well be back to ‘normal’
What about when someone realises that some routes can be returned to single track, or a few depots could be shut, or more trains could be sent to the scrapyard to save costs?
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,307
Location
Bolton
What about when someone realises that some routes can be returned to single track, or a few depots could be shut, or more trains could be sent to the scrapyard to save costs?
Has there been much evidence of these sorts of things happening post-privatisation? There have been plenty of times when spending on renewals has been put under pressure since, but I don't remember any station closures or lines singled.
 

RT4038

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
5,458
Here are a few ideas of where savings could be made:

(a) Reduce existing passenger train services and pause any enhancements. Use some of the displaced stock to put more carriages on the remaining services.
(b) Suspend Network Rail spending on those capacity enhancements that won't be required due to (a)
(c) Reduce the numbers of staff being made redundant from (a) by bringing Sundays into the working week.
(d) Reduce expenditure on new leases by pausing new rolling stock unless absolutely necessary.
(e) Overhaul the railway pension scheme to something more affordable and comparable to most other industries.
(f) Restart the process of 'the other big potential staff saving' of post #2

Fairly controversial, but if there is going to be a mother of all rail industrial disputes, it might as well be when there any many fewer passengers to be inconvenienced......
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
23,371
Fairly controversial
Yes, and the problem is that many of these ideas increase unemployment and reduce economic activity exactly at the time when this is happening elsewhere in the economy.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,307
Location
Bolton
Suspend Network Rail spending on those capacity enhancements that won't be required due to
I think it’s a likely outcome that DfT will test the current range of enhancements in development against their near-term objectives (e.g. At a random guess very high value for money, very long payback period, decarbonisation support, easier to deliver while there are few trains etc.) and slide some enhancements to the right a little to accommodate Covid-19 related assessment. But technically this is capital spending not current spending so it might be quite the reverse!
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,386
Location
Yorks
I dare say that there are a few frequent services that could drop back to half hourly for the time being.

I wonder if there is scope for bolstering NR revenue by giving over more platform/forecourt space to station bars to enable social distancing.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,307
Location
Bolton
I dare say that there are a few frequent services that could drop back to half hourly for the time being.
This is a good point. There are probably a significant number of routes where 4tph has been the norm for a long time which could drop back to 2 for a year.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,386
Location
Yorks
Also, to offset costs, given that NR has such a large land estate, I wonder how much scope there is to rent some of it for micro-generation.
 

Mcr Warrior

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Jan 2009
Messages
17,287
  • 33% Leasing and maintaining trains
  • 25% Staff
  • 17% infrastructure maintentence
  • 8% Payments to government
  • 5% Fuel and energy
  • 2% Train operator profit
So where could spending be trimmed?
That doesn't add up to 100% does it? Was it intended to omit reference to the 10% of expenses in the pie chart which is spent on day to day business costs and admin? Might there be savings there?

As well as focusing on expenditure, perhaps there should be equal focus on income. For example, is the farebox currently being actively collected just now?

And as regards supplementary income streams available to the Railway industry, who would want to be reliant on rental income just now?

Maybe at the end of the day, there should be a realisation that operating the Railway in the current environment is the financial equivalent of storing water in a leaky bucket. :rolleyes:
 

Fincra5

Established Member
Joined
6 Jun 2009
Messages
2,636
Really the 2% Profit should be re-invested in the railways and not into the pockets of Shareholders. Might seem small but it's a fair chunk to "Save" under normal circumstances.
 

Energy

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2018
Messages
5,135
Really the 2% Profit should be re-invested in the railways and not into the pockets of Shareholders. Might seem small but it's a fair chunk to "Save" under normal circumstances.
Well for a £25 ticket there would be a 50p profit, remember that things like station refurbishments often come out of the TOCs pocket and will need paying of with the profit the TOC makes. There does also need to be a little incentive for companies to bid, if there is no profit then why bother? The profits to the government is 8% so the same ticket the government get £2 of profit.
 

Fincra5

Established Member
Joined
6 Jun 2009
Messages
2,636
Well for a £25 ticket there would be a 50p profit, remember that things like station refurbishments often come out of the TOCs pocket and will need paying of with the profit the TOC makes. There does also need to be a little incentive for companies to bid, if there is no profit then why bother? The profits to the government is 8% so the same ticket the government get £2 of profit.

Precisely why the private sector doesn't work for the railway...
 

furnessvale

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2015
Messages
4,913
Precisely why the private sector doesn't work for the railway...
If the private sector cream off 2% and the government cream off 8%, how come it is the private sector that is not working for the railway?
 

tbwbear

Member
Joined
28 Nov 2017
Messages
286
Well for a £25 ticket there would be a 50p profit, remember that things like station refurbishments often come out of the TOCs pocket and will need paying of with the profit the TOC makes. There does also need to be a little incentive for companies to bid, if there is no profit then why bother? The profits to the government is 8% so the same ticket the government get £2 of profit.

So If a state-owned entity like LNER or Northern bid, doesn't the government get to keep that 2% as well ?

Would that be such a bad thing ? Especially since the other bidders are also often (non-UK) state-owned too ?

Did I miss something?
 

Energy

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2018
Messages
5,135
So If a state-owned entity like LNER or Northern bid, doesn't the government get to keep that 2% as well ?

Would that be such a bad thing ? Especially since the other bidders are also often (non-UK) state-owned too ?

Did I miss something?
Yes and no, LNER exists because the private ones kept running out of money due to franchise payments and the DfT decided to take it over instead of lowering the franchise payments (which would probably been a better choice in my opinion to allow the OLR to focus on Northern) while Northern exists because of failing of multiple groups of people (including the DfT) not because of financial issues. LNER is probably profitable for the government, the only reason why it lost money under VTEC and others was because of payments to the DfT while Northern was already subsidised so is a definite loss maker.

Would it be a bad thing for the OLR to bid for franchises? It may lower tickets costs 50p by removing a bit of profit but the government isn't known to be efficient.
 

Energy

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2018
Messages
5,135
Precisely why the private sector doesn't work for the railway...
Not really, private operators have managed to get 10% of profit from tickets, they just have to give most of it to the government. If the argument for private not working for the railway is because that 2% will go to profits (lots of that will go to paying of things like station refurbishments, new ticket machines, etc.) then public really does not work if they are taking 4 times that amount.

I think private companies should be allowed to have that tiny amount of profit, Greater Anglia for example spent £60M on stations alone and a further £120M on depots, Abellio expect to get their money back for these investments through profit, do we stop these investments just to lower ticket prices by a tiny amount? For example a ticket from Norwich to Great Yarmouth is £8.20, the 2% of profit on that is only 16p.
 
Last edited:

gordonthemoron

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2006
Messages
6,727
Location
Milton Keynes
How much is spent on insurance? IIRC BR used to buy the most basic legal requirement (eg for road vehicles) and otherwise insure itself
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,300
How much is spent on insurance? IIRC BR used to buy the most basic legal requirement (eg for road vehicles) and otherwise insure itself
Self insurance is fairly standard practice for such a large vehicle fleet. BR wouldn’t be anything special In that respect.
 

tbwbear

Member
Joined
28 Nov 2017
Messages
286
Would it be a bad thing for the OLR to bid for franchises? It may lower tickets costs 50p by removing a bit of profit but the government isn't known to be efficient.

But I am confused as to how a foreign state-owned company is any more efficient at running (on the new post-COVID 2% basis) than a UK state-owned company. IIRC - BR used to be quite efficient compared with its European counterparts.

I actually run a private company - I get private enterprise, but I don't see how it really benefits the railway given the state the system is in now.
 

Energy

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2018
Messages
5,135
But I am confused as to how a foreign state-owned company is any more efficient at running (on the new post-COVID 2% basis) than a UK state-owned company. IIRC - BR used to be quite efficient compared with its European counterparts.

I actually run a private company - I get private enterprise, but I don't see how it really benefits the railway given the state the system is in now.
I think private companies have more of an incentive to be more efficient to maximise profits and some will be more willing to invest if they think they can get a return on investment.
 

tbwbear

Member
Joined
28 Nov 2017
Messages
286
I think private companies have more of an incentive to be more efficient to maximise profits and some will be more willing to invest if they think they can get a return on investment.

I completely agree. But there isn't any incentive to maximise profits in the new system - the profit is capped at 2% isn't it.

It is just a question of who can cost cut the most, and I am not convinced the private sector can do this any better than the public.

If it can, why is it do we have so many state-owned companies running our trains and London buses (RATP, Trenitalia, DB, Abellio) ?
 

Energy

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2018
Messages
5,135
I completely agree. But there isn't any incentive to maximise profits in the new system - the profit is capped at 2% isn't it.

It is just a question of who can cost cut the most, and I am not convinced the private sector can do this any better than the public.

If it can, why is it do we have so many state-owned companies running our trains and London buses (RATP, Trenitalia, DB, Abellio) ?
With the exception of Trenitalia and RATP, they are subsidiary of state-owned companies, these subsidiaries still have to make money like a private company would or their parent company will just sell them off.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
11,010
Location
London
Reducing services to something like a Saturday+ timetable would be a start, however you then have trains sitting empty not making any money, albeit not running on the infrastructure. I know many TOCs are keeping a very watchful eye on passenger numbers and can adapt & strengthen if it becomes required.
 

tbwbear

Member
Joined
28 Nov 2017
Messages
286
With the exception of Trenitalia and RATP, they are subsidiary of state-owned companies, these subsidiaries still have to make money like a private company would or their parent company will just sell them off.

So why can we not create subsidaries of our own state-owned companies ? Isn't that kind of what LNER is ?

Presumably the profits from RATP etc.. go back eventually to the state ? Just not the state that we are paying taxes to !
 

Energy

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2018
Messages
5,135
Reducing services to something like a Saturday+ timetable would be a start, however you then have trains sitting empty not making any money, albeit not running on the infrastructure. I know many TOCs are keeping a very watchful eye on passenger numbers and can adapt & strengthen if it becomes required.
Reducing services should only be temporary during covid and not something long term.
 

Energy

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2018
Messages
5,135
So why can we not create subsidaries of our own state-owned companies ? Isn't that kind of what LNER is ?

Presumably the profits from RATP etc.. go back eventually to the state ? Just not the state that we are paying taxes too !
Maybe we should? With private rail operators in Europe now becoming a thing maybe the UK should have a private operator there if it can be profitable.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top