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Why did 57' & 63' become the standard carriage lengths?

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montyburns56

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Was there a reason why these two lengths of coach seem to have become the standard coach length (later coaches notwithstanding)? Was it something that occurred during the Big Four years and was it a joint decision that they came up with? And broadly it seems that the 63' length was for mainline services and the 57' length was for secondary services, so I'm guessing that it's connected with the theoretically smaller loading gauge on minor lines?
 
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30907

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Glad you asked that question :)
I don't know the answer (someone else here probably does!), but coach lengths were certainly not standardised pre nationalisation: both the LMS and GW pre-WW2 built corridor stock to 57' (though not exclusively), the LNER 60' and the SR 59' - the GW also had a fair amount of 70' stock including suburbans.
Post-war, Thompson and Bulleid both went for 63' while Hawksworth moved to 64'. Bulleid at least produced 63' suburban EMUs.
Did this coincide with improved manufacturing techniques, I wonder?

There were certainly some routes that could only accept 57' coaches because of the throw-over on very sharp curves - the Widened Lines at KGX for example - and GW 70ft stock was route-restricted. The GE line for many years had 51' coaches but I'm not sure why this was.

However I don't think in general minor lines had length restrictions - indeed, most railways didn't build specific branch line coaches, relying on hand-me-downs.
 

WesternLancer

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Was there a reason why these two lengths of coach seem to have become the standard coach length (later coaches notwithstanding)? Was it something that occurred during the Big Four years and was it a joint decision that they came up with? And broadly it seems that the 63' length was for mainline services and the 57' length was for secondary services, so I'm guessing that it's connected with the theoretically smaller loading gauge on minor lines?
Good question!
Fairly confident it is not related to the length of a Roman chariot anyway....
 

AM9

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Was there a reason why these two lengths of coach seem to have become the standard coach length (later coaches notwithstanding)? Was it something that occurred during the Big Four years and was it a joint decision that they came up with? And broadly it seems that the 63' length was for mainline services and the 57' length was for secondary services, so I'm guessing that it's connected with the theoretically smaller loading gauge on minor lines?
I would imagine that by the time that BR designed the MKI stock, the need for more suburban stock dictated a standard length based on the space required for a compartment. LHCS coaches inherited from the big 4 companies were generally shorter than 57ft and given the shortness of suburban platforms at nationalisation, 57ft with nine compartments was a reasoanble compromise. When the MKI mainline corridor coaches were designed, there were also the programmes of EMU building, late 4-subs, 4-EPBs and the GE/LMR designs which ran high density services where platforms were generally longer, so there was an opportunity to create a 10 compartment underframe which neatly fitted under a 3+4 composite corridor coach with gangway connections and toilets, also it suited the TSO layout with 8 bays with toilets. Thus the suburban 57fts continued to be made as it must have been obvious by the Modernisationn Plan (1955?) that they would be the last non-corridor LHCS requirement.
 

AM9

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Glad you asked that question :)
I don't know the answer (someone else here probably does!), but coach lengths were certainly not standardised pre nationalisation: both the LMS and GW pre-WW2 built corridor stock to 57' (though not exclusively), the LNER 60' and the SR 59' - the GW also had a fair amount of 70' stock including suburbans.
Post-war, Thompson and Bulleid both went for 63' while Hawksworth moved to 64'. Bulleid at least produced 63' suburban EMUs.
Did this coincide with improved manufacturing techniques, I wonder? ...
With a compartment length of about 6ft, a 51ft pre-war coach could accommodate up to 8 compartments, a 57 ft nine and a 63ft ten, (which is why bullied went for 63ft, - see my post above).

here were certainly some routes that could only accept 57' coaches because of the throw-over on very sharp curves - the Widened Lines at KGX for example - and GW 70ft stock was route-restricted. The GE line for many years had 51' coaches but I'm not sure why this was. ...
Much of the LNER suburban services were run with 1923 designed 'quad-arts' which in terms of passengers per length were quite efficient owing to the smaller gap between coaches. The clearances on the suburban lines would have evolved to accommodate them and until the the widened lines were electrified in the early '80s, the 57 ft BR stock would probably be the only stock that fitted (just).
 

Taunton

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I believe AM9 is correct. They worked in what I would have thought the most logical way, not coming up with an arbitrary length and then wondering how to fit the seating in, but to take a standard seating bay as the basic unit; 8 of them seems reasonable, put in appropriate doors, WCs, stuff under the frame, etc, and you end up with 64', which seemed to fit most existing structure gauges. If not, take a bay out and calculate again. Try doing 9 bays, that would be beyond many existing structure gauges. So that's it.

Some lines and stock types didn't suit this, so take a bay out and you get the 57' length. Some of the restrictions seemed to be a bit of an urban legend. 57' stock for curves, and specially cut-down ventilators for clearance, were stated as needed for the Moorgate trains, yet later 25Kv was threaded through without huge issue it seems, with standard length stock.

Mk1 stock had an initial design life of 40 years. Notably, the body was meant to last just 20 years, and the vehicle to be rebodied at mid-life. In the costing what was above the frame was less than half the construction cost. Somehow that didn't happen. Initial steel bodies did seem to last about 20 years but it was practice to scrap the whole vehicle then, and as steel construction techniques advanced (alas wonder product asbestos insulation being part of this) the bodies were found to be able to last longer. B1 bogies proved to be underperformers, brakes moved on from vacuum to air, and from clasp to disc, steam connections went - the underpinnings all became outmoded as well.
 

Merle Haggard

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To elaborate on Taunton's explanation, I'll quote from An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches, about the design of Bulleid coaches;
"The compartment dimensions did not vary much from those used for Maunsell stock, namely around 6' 3" for 3rd cl. and around 7' 2" for 1st. Adding approx. 3' 9" for each lavatory plus 2' 9" for each cross-vestibule and fractions for coach-end/compartment partitions, resulted in a body length of 64' 6". " (i.e. for 7 1st or 8 3rd)

The LMS did not standardise entirely on 57', composites were generally 60' and other designs (such as BCK and for dining) were 50, 62', 65' and 68'.
 

Snow1964

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I know the Southern built a lot of 57 feet underframes and reused bodies from short compartment stock, even many of its suburban electric units.

I think the 63’ or 64’ length was common because a number of carriage works were built to accept that length. I think the gap between buildings meant if you had anything over about 67’ (with gangways) couldn’t move it on the traversers.

I think when the mark3s came about, the end of a building at Derby had to be knocked down, but that may be urban myth
 

Taunton

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Getting it on the traverser was sometimes a key issue. When the GWR built the 44xx 2-6-2Ts at Wolverhampton, which had previously only built up to 0-6-0s, they had to take the pony truck off to get them onto the traverser, and refit it again afterwards.

Not the worst. There were actually locomotive builders without rail connections, just like apparently aircraft builders without factory runways.
 

30907

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Agree almost 100% with posts #4 onwards, bar a couple of quibbles:
Some lines and stock types didn't suit this, so take a bay out and you get the 57' length.
Other way round - 57' preceded 63' consistently.

I think the 63’ or 64’ length was common because a number of carriage works were built to accept that length. I think the gap between buildings meant if you had anything over about 67’ (with gangways) couldn’t move it on the traversers.
I'd wondered about traversers too but I don't think any carriage works date from the 63ft era.

One other thought re BR Mk1s: their curved profile followed Bulleid's almost exactly, taking full advantage of the loading gauge - I wonder if Bulleid is effectively responsible for the choice of 63ft rather than 1-2 feet longer?

And (less seriously) were platform lengths at SR London termini a factor (the modern equivalent of the Roman chariot mentioned by WesternLancer?
 

Taunton

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I believe that platform lengths at Charing Cross were indeed a tight consideration, and some (hauled) stock initially ordered for the Hastings line in the 1950s was only 57', to fit 12 coaches plus a Schools 4-4-0. When it was decided at a late stage to have them as diesel multiple units instead, the first (was it 7?) units were put on these 57' underframes because they had already been built, later ones using new full length frames, which is why the Hastings diesels came in both lengths. The Southern had a strange longstanding approach of building the underframes in a different works to the bodies.
 

Helvellyn

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Mark 2B through to 2F stock is slightly longer than Mark 2/2A stock. Whilst the middle door was lost toilets moved to being either end of the coach in TSOs and I understand it required a slightly longer coach to accommodate that and still keep eight seating bays. I want to say they went from 63' to 64', but don't hold me to it!
 

AM9

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Mark 2B through to 2F stock is slightly longer than Mark 2/2A stock. Whilst the middle door was lost toilets moved to being either end of the coach in TSOs and I understand it required a slightly longer coach to accommodate that and still keep eight seating bays. I want to say they went from 63' to 64', but don't hold me to it!
I think that's true, but the MKIIs were of integral construction so the concept of a common chassis no longer applied. That meant that the length could be adjusted to provide additional crash resistance in the superstructure.
 

matchmaker

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To elaborate on Taunton's explanation, I'll quote from An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches, about the design of Bulleid coaches;
"The compartment dimensions did not vary much from those used for Maunsell stock, namely around 6' 3" for 3rd cl. and around 7' 2" for 1st. Adding approx. 3' 9" for each lavatory plus 2' 9" for each cross-vestibule and fractions for coach-end/compartment partitions, resulted in a body length of 64' 6". " (i.e. for 7 1st or 8 3rd)

The LMS did not standardise entirely on 57', composites were generally 60' and other designs (such as BCK and for dining) were 50, 62', 65' and 68'.

And 69'.
 

KevinTurvey

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I suspect as well that in the days of separate underframes and coach bodies that sagging of the underframe as it got longer would be an issue and limiting factor? Perhaps 63 foot-ish was the trade off figure between what could comfortably be accommodated depth wise underneath a coach to provide the stiffness, minimising extra underframe weight as a result, and maximising coach length, assuming little or no stiffness from the coach body.
 

bassmike

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The reason that longer electric coaches went down the Moorgate lines O K was because they only used the St Pancras branch tunnels and not the york rd; or hotel curve tunnels.
 

edwin_m

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I suspect as well that in the days of separate underframes and coach bodies that sagging of the underframe as it got longer would be an issue and limiting factor? Perhaps 63 foot-ish was the trade off figure between what could comfortably be accommodated depth wise underneath a coach to provide the stiffness, minimising extra underframe weight as a result, and maximising coach length, assuming little or no stiffness from the coach body.
There may also have been an issue with resonant frequency.
The reason that longer electric coaches went down the Moorgate lines O K was because they only used the St Pancras branch tunnels and not the york rd; or hotel curve tunnels.
Even then they were tight, only 317s/319s and 31s being allowed I think.
 

AM9

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There may also have been an issue with resonant frequency.

Even then they were tight, only 317s/319s and 31s being allowed I think.
Apart from 31s, which don't hold many passengers, those classes weren't in existence in the '60s.
 

dubscottie

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Mark 2B through to 2F stock is slightly longer than Mark 2/2A stock. Whilst the middle door was lost toilets moved to being either end of the coach in TSOs and I understand it required a slightly longer coach to accommodate that and still keep eight seating bays. I want to say they went from 63' to 64', but don't hold me to it!

The Mk2b/c were stretched to accommodate the never fitted AC. The centre door was done away with as BR had overcome its phobia of train fires.

I am 99% sure I read in a book (could have been on the NBR or UTA) that 63' was the longest a piece of solid steel could be rolled into sections at the time without warping. IIRC there was some mention about them being riveted and using shackles (not sure if that is the right term) for the trusses.
 

hexagon789

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Mark 2B through to 2F stock is slightly longer than Mark 2/2A stock. Whilst the middle door was lost toilets moved to being either end of the coach in TSOs and I understand it required a slightly longer coach to accommodate that and still keep eight seating bays. I want to say they went from 63' to 64', but don't hold me to it!

They went to 66ft as I recall.
 

webbfan

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I believe AM9 is correct. They worked in what I would have thought the most logical way, not coming up with an arbitrary length and then wondering how to fit the seating in, but to take a standard seating bay as the basic unit; 8 of them seems reasonable, put in appropriate doors, WCs, stuff under the frame, etc, and you end up with 64', which seemed to fit most existing structure gauges. If not, take a bay out and calculate again. Try doing 9 bays, that would be beyond many existing structure gauges. So that's it.

Some lines and stock types didn't suit this, so take a bay out and you get the 57' length. Some of the restrictions seemed to be a bit of an urban legend. 57' stock for curves, and specially cut-down ventilators for clearance, were stated as needed for the Moorgate trains, yet later 25Kv was threaded through without huge issue it seems, with standard length stock.

Mk1 stock had an initial design life of 40 years. Notably, the body was meant to last just 20 years, and the vehicle to be rebodied at mid-life. In the costing what was above the frame was less than half the construction cost. Somehow that didn't happen. Initial steel bodies did seem to last about 20 years but it was practice to scrap the whole vehicle then, and as steel construction techniques advanced (alas wonder product asbestos insulation being part of this) the bodies were found to be able to last longer. B1 bogies proved to be underperformers, brakes moved on from vacuum to air, and from clasp to disc, steam connections went - the underpinnings all became outmoded as well.
Was the LNWR at Wolverton that finally reached 57ft as their standard length, LMS inherited it from them. Think the coach departments of midland and LNWR were the only sections to actually merge without argueing or requiring a dominant partner, so 57ft was accepted by all. The new all steel underframe was the deciding factor for the length. Partitions within adapted to fit as required for the different configurations - first class, second class, composite etc.
Although 57ft was the 'standard' other lengths were available - later sleepers were 68ft.
 

matchmaker

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Was the LNWR at Wolverton that finally reached 57ft as their standard length, LMS inherited it from them. Think the coach departments of midland and LNWR were the only sections to actually merge without argueing or requiring a dominant partner, so 57ft was accepted by all. The new all steel underframe was the deciding factor for the length. Partitions within adapted to fit as required for the different configurations - first class, second class, composite etc.
Although 57ft was the 'standard' other lengths were available - later sleepers were 68ft.

The last composite and first class sleepers were 69' (they were also wider than normal, the bodies being built out to the full 9'3" with recessed handles). The only 68' LMS built sleepers were the Period 1 first class and Period 2 composites, both of which were to an LNWR style.
 

webbfan

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Jenkinson "an Illustrated History of LNWR Coaches" page 20 says "increase in length to 68ft for final batches of sleeping cars, which set the pattern for LMS stock after the grouping". There are other authors and books, but Jenkinson is/was one of the best.
 
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