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TPE - Is there a case for additional carriages?

Is there a case?

  • No - There is too much capacity for demand

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    88
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Neptune

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Not unless you count the existing fleet! As you may know, when the 15 sets go off-lease, electrification of the Huddersfield line is complete and when some of the class 185 set's go to the Liverpool to Nottingham service, I think that TPE should have some new Bi-mode trains with more capacity than the Class 185. Maybe some CAF Civity's?
Or order some more 802’s which are bi-mode.

A fleet of less than 100 trains with 5 different classes is ludicrous. The current 4 classes is bad enough. If the opportunity to lose one of those fleets (185’s) is possible then the 802’s make the most sense. They could even order enough to drop the crazy loco hauled idea whilst they’re at it and streamline with 2 separate classes.
 
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Energy

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Not unless you count the existing fleet! As you may know, when the 15 sets go off-lease, electrification of the Huddersfield line is complete and when some of the class 185 set's go to the Liverpool to Nottingham service, I think that TPE should have some new Bi-mode trains with more capacity than the Class 185. Maybe some CAF Civity's?
Are these sets going off lease yet? These sets will get retained if TPE get the Liverpool to Nottingham service, which they seem likely to get. If bimode is needed either more 802s can get ordered or maybe they should get some trailer cars for the 185s which have a pantograph and electric motors on this carriage, it wouldn't have an issue with the emissions as it wouldn't have an engine, the 185s have enough diesel power for another car without a diesel engine.
If the opportunity to lose one of those fleets (185’s) is possible then the 802’s make the most sense. They could even order enough to drop the crazy loco hauled idea whilst they’re at it and streamline with 2 separate classes.
I don't think they should drop the 185s, their door arrangement makes them suitable for the routes they have been allocated on, I can see them dropping the loco hauled fleet in the not too distant future.
 

JonathanH

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maybe they should get some trailer cars for the 185s which have a pantograph and electric motors on this carriage, it wouldn't have an issue with the emissions as it wouldn't have an engine, the 185s have enough diesel power for another car without a diesel engine.
I think we have established that there is no chance of that
- firstly, the 185s don't have any traction motors so cant be powered by electricity
- the trailer (motor coach) with pantograph transformer and motors would be pretty heavy, certainly more so than a simple trailer.
- the existing train is quite heavy for the electric motor to try to move.

So you would end up with a train that is sluggish on both diesel and electric.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Not unless you count the existing fleet! As you may know, when the 15 sets go off-lease, electrification of the Huddersfield line is complete and when some of the class 185 set's go to the Liverpool to Nottingham service, I think that TPE should have some new Bi-mode trains with more capacity than the Class 185. Maybe some CAF Civity's?
Once TP wiring is complete, locals from Huddersfield to both Leeds and Manchester should really be with whatever Northern becomes rather than TPE, with hopefully a frequency upgrade. Pure EMUs would be a better choice than bi-mode, as there's no requirement for those services to run off the wires.
 

Bevan Price

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TPE has just had a large capacity increase with the new trains. Are you saying that they were already full pre-COVID because from what I saw they weren’t anywhere close to full.
Some of the Manchester Airport - Edinburgh services could fill a pair of 350s, so a single 397 will never be enough in a post-Covid era.
 

nr758123

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Once TP wiring is complete, locals from Huddersfield to both Leeds and Manchester should really be with whatever Northern becomes rather than TPE, with hopefully a frequency upgrade. Pure EMUs would be a better choice than bi-mode, as there's no requirement for those services to run off the wires.
But when, if ever, will that happen. Electrification between Manchester and Leeds was announced in 2011, and there's still no certainty as to when or whether the entire route will be wired.
 

Speed43125

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Not unless you count the existing fleet! As you may know, when the 15 sets go off-lease, electrification of the Huddersfield line is complete and when some of the class 185 set's go to the Liverpool to Nottingham service, I think that TPE should have some new Bi-mode trains with more capacity than the Class 185. Maybe some CAF Civity's?
isn't what you're describing an 802, or an AT200 equivalent? But as stated, another class is the last thing they would need or want.
 

tetudo boy

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isn't what you're describing an 802, or an AT200 equivalent? But as stated, another class is the last thing they would need or want.
I'm probably describing an AT200 equivalent since it has the ⅓-⅔ Door configuration. But hey, it could be a Civity or Aventra.
 

Jamesrob637

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TPE has just had a large capacity increase with the new trains. Are you saying that they were already full pre-COVID because from what I saw they weren’t anywhere close to full.

Only if a Northern team were at home (between Manchester, Huddersfield and Leeds that's most Saturdays to be fair!)
 

YorksLad12

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Or order some more 802’s which are bi-mode.

A fleet of less than 100 trains with 5 different classes is ludicrous. The current 4 classes is bad enough. If the opportunity to lose one of those fleets (185’s) is possible then the 802’s make the most sense. They could even order enough to drop the crazy loco hauled idea whilst they’re at it and streamline with 2 separate classes.
Agree, I'd really like to see more 802s to replace the Mk5As. But as stated further down, the 185s could be around for quite a while until electrification is done, and they can happily run Leeds to Huddersfield in the interim (or even the Leeds - York semi-fast, except that would probably create other issues for Northern). Apart from the weight they're perfect for those services because of the 1/3 & 2/3 doors. If anything, a subclass could be created with no First Class section.
 

D365

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I have read on a different discussion, that the 15 Class 185s which were due to go off-lease, have been retained by TPE until at least the end of the year.
 

Fokx

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I have read on a different discussion, that the 15 Class 185s which were due to go off-lease, have been retained by TPE until at least the end of the year.

That’s correct,

It’s until December this year to allow greater capacity for social distancing and to allow for the unforeseen faults in the new Nova fleet to be addressed.
 

The Ham

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Yes I completely agree, timing of a recovery will be imperative but that is more a question of when, not if. The alternative in itself is not sustainable. We are either all driving a lot more, which is unsustainable. We could be working from home in greater numbers, which is sustainable to an extent (i.e. 100% wfh is unsustainable and it would damage the entertainment and hospitality industries, yet 0% wfh is unsustainable too).

WFH may actually mean more rail use, as an example someone driving 10,000 miles and then works 100% from home (unlikely I know but other options could also create more rail use too):
Travel between home and work 6,000 (no longer done)
Local travel of up to 3 miles 2,500 (mostly done by walking/cycling)
Other longer distance travel 1,500 (mostly done by public transport)

As such although overall travel has fallen the account by public transport has increased significantly.

Over the whole country a 2.5% switch from road to rail would offset a 20% fall in rail use.

Given that not all jobs could be done from home, that many jobs would still have days in the office even where there is working from home, that as a nation 25% of rail travel isn't associated with commuting or business travel, that with the fall of Flybe flying isn't going to be so attractive, and so on. As such a 20% would be quite a high percentage fall.

However that would likely be across road and rail. Given that cars are expensive (average is over £3,000/year with few, other than those don't very low milage, being able to run a car for less than £1,000/year) with a lot of upfront costs, a significant fall in travel is likely to impact car use significantly (as indicated above).

As such a lot of people could be better off by getting rid of their cars (especially if that's reducing the overall number in a household, typically from 2 to 1, rather than not having a car at all) and walking/cycling & using public transport for what's left of their travel.

1,500 miles is an average of 125 miles/month, for a lot of people that probably fairly typical for a years worth of holidays, visiting family, day trips, attending events, travel associated with hobbies, etc.

If you are doing 4,500 miles a year by car and it costs you £2,000 then that's 45p/mile. Whilst rail is expensive is rarely that much on a per mile basis.

For the family holiday then chances are the cost of hiring a car starts to be a sensible option at those milage costs (or at least isn't that much more).

Anyway, to being this all back on topic, chances are the growth of rail passengers beyond this year, maybe a bit more, is likely to continue and so extra rolling stock is likely to be required.
 
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