Remaining Great Northern services post Thameslink to be rolled into London Overground and LNER?

[Bald Rick]

Trust me I suffered their dreadful 'service' along the coast daily for three years. I have good reason to hate them.

Well I’ve been using Thameslink for 17 years, and the current service (pre Covid) is comfortably the best it has ever been.

 

[DJ_K666]

Well I’ve been using Thameslink for 17 years, and the current service (pre Covid) is comfortably the best it has ever been.

You probably got lucky. I was previously a Go-Ahead group bus driver before I moved up to the Midlands for family reasons and I had to use Southern to get to work each day The timing of trains to miss pne another by 1 minute was a constant source of stress. I often had to rely on a train from London being late to have a chance of getting home in good time. I believe that (as it often took) 2 hours to do a 20 mile journey was unacceptable. I'll admit I rarely used Thameslink as they went north and my journey was east to west however I hated the seats when I did, those horrible ironing board things and the toxic plastic smell of the 700s. Sometimes I did go up to Haywards Heath in order to catch the ex VIC train towards Eastbourne, (I had a magic pass that allowed me to) but the service as I found it was terrible and inefficient and staff who were not only disinterested but in some cases downright rude. There were exceptions on the gateline at Brighton and a dispatcher or two were cool but the rest. UUrgh.

Now just imagine it day, in day out, day in, day out for three years

So yes. For those reasons I'll view any misfortune that befalls GTR as just desserts and will cheer their demise.

Thanks

 

[AM9]

... I'll admit I rarely used Thameslink as they went north and my journey was east to west however I hated the seats when I did, those horrible ironing board things and the toxic plastic smell of the 700s. ...

Well you need to think through just what you have said. The 700s are nearly new trains. They are doing the job that they were designed to do and which no other class would be able to get anywhere near providing the same service.
So whoever was to win the franchise for the TL services, their passengers would be riding in the same seats on the same trains, (and no doubt inhaling the same 'toxic plastic smell' that I've not experienced but seems to bother your nose). As Bald Rick says, they are doing a pretty good job at the moment.

 

[Fincra5]

Trust me I suffered their dreadful 'service' along the coast daily for three years. I have good reason to hate them.

Its been mostly operating fine for many months now... No more delays than any other. The Mainline Suffers most but this is due to the Croydon Bottle Neck. All it takes is a train to be a couple of mins down to knock on a bit. (It's usually a Thameslink thats late!)

Suppose you can't please everyone.

 

[Hadders]

Well I hope you're right and I hope it means that we can be rid of GTR and the useless Southern. A truly dreadful company that would struggle to run a bath. They certainly struggle to run trains efficiently

I'm no cheerleader for GTR but things have settled down considerably and in my view the last thing that's needed now is a big change in the franchise. That will just lead to a few more years of disruption while things are re-cut.

The seats on the class 700s is nothing to do with GTR - they were specified by the Department for Transport.

You do realise that the staff you despise will just transfer over to the new operator. A change of franchise doesn't really change much on the ground.

 

[Recessio]

To slightly wrangle this thread back on topic, the tunnels still have some LU safety regulations, right? Do I remember seeing the cabs on 717s have some sort of cab phone and third rail safety gear that NR trains aren't normally required to have, but LU do?

And what would TfLs long term plans be? Could there be a possibility of converting the line back to Underground rather than NR? Sounds ridiculous at first, but when you compare the line to the Met line...

 

[bramling]

I’m neutral on whether a TfL takeover of the Moorgate Lines would be a good thing.

On the one hand GTR have done all the ‘dirty’ work of replacing trains, improving infrastructure etc (OK Network Rail but passengers will think it’s GTR) only for TfL to come in and take the glory.

TfL is strapped for cash so ultimately I guess it comes down to whether the Moorgate Lines make an operating profit.

On balance I think splitting off these services would be pointless, there’s just two much operational crossover between the inners and the rest of GTR. What benefit is the passenger going to see apart from some sprucing up of stations, none of which are in too bad a state as they are? This simply isn’t the North London Line in the 1990s. Many of the stations are already staffed throughout the day, new trains have arrived, and the timetable is pretty intense as it is.

A FCC-style breakup of GTR would be better IMO, with the TL and GN brands simply kept as they are now.

 

[bramling]

I'm no cheerleader for GTR but things have settled down considerably and in my view the last thing that's needed now is a big change in the franchise. That will just lead to a few more years of disruption while things are re-cut.

The seats on the class 700s is nothing to do with GTR - they were specified by the Department for Transport.

You do realise that the staff you despise will just transfer over to the new operator. A change of franchise doesn't really change much on the ground.

Yes I’d agree GTR do appear to have made some genuine effort to improve. Perhaps Horton’s departure was the enabler for this, he seems to have been associated with trouble wherever he goes.

The GTR routes now need a period of consolidation and continuing focus on making things work smoothly. Another wave of change would be detrimental IMO.

 

[Skimble19]

Yes I’d agree GTR do appear to have made some genuine effort to improve. Perhaps Horton’s departure was the enabler for this, he seems to have been associated with trouble wherever he goes.

The GTR routes now need a period of consolidation and continuing focus on making things work smoothly. Another wave of change would be detrimental IMO.

That’s certainly how it is internally, that particularly individual and his team leaving was the best thing that could’ve happened to GTR - it’s just a shame it didn’t happen earlier!

Breaking up GTR now would be a mistake based on the errors of the past as opposed to the current performance. It’ll be a nightmare too as so many things are finally integrated between the 4 brands (other than pay grades etc but that was never going to happen!).

I honestly cannot see any benefit whatsoever in transferring the inners to TFL, it’ll do nothing but cause issues. Any minor things they could improve could just as easily be done whilst remaining part of TSGN (or successor).

 

[DJ_K666]

Its been mostly operating fine for many months now... No more delays than any other. The Mainline Suffers most but this is due to the Croydon Bottle Neck. All it takes is a train to be a couple of mins down to knock on a bit. (It's usually a Thameslink thats late!)

Suppose you can't please everyone.

Hey. Those comments weren't aimed at you. You're one of the good ones. Have you been back to the club recently?

Most of my journeys were east to west like I said. I often didnt bother venturing northwards so the Brighton line was beirut to me. A subtle rearrangement of the timetable would have resulted in better connections towards Eastbourne instead of 2 trains an hour (it really needs to be 3) plus if I missed the connection I often went to Lewes and relied on the London to Hastings train being late (which was a lot) but like I said if it takes 2 hours plus to do 20 miles something is seriously wrong.

 

[DJ_K666]

I'm no cheerleader for GTR but things have settled down considerably and in my view the last thing that's needed now is a big change in the franchise. That will just lead to a few more years of disruption while things are re-cut.

The seats on the class 700s is nothing to do with GTR - they were specified by the Department for Transport.

You do realise that the staff you despise will just transfer over to the new operator. A change of franchise doesn't really change much on the ground.

Possibly. Maybe a new franchisee might have different ideas as to training however I'm now 30 miles away from the nearest Southern train, which comes every hour to Milton Keynes. Also since I quit from Go-Ahead I do not have to bite my tongue any more so of someone p***es me off I can say something rather than be in uniform and risk it getting back to my managers.

 

[DJ_K666]

Yes I’d agree GTR do appear to have made some genuine effort to improve. Perhaps Horton’s departure was the enabler for this, he seems to have been associated with trouble wherever he goes.

The GTR routes now need a period of consolidation and continuing focus on making things work smoothly. Another wave of change would be detrimental IMO.

I didn't realise he'd gone. Not before time. Now for Brown too...

 

[DJ_K666]

Well you need to think through just what you have said. The 700s are nearly new trains. They are doing the job that they were designed to do and which no other class would be able to get anywhere near providing the same service.
So whoever was to win the franchise for the TL services, their passengers would be riding in the same seats on the same trains, (and no doubt inhaling the same 'toxic plastic smell' that I've not experienced but seems to bother your nose). As Bald Rick says, they are doing a pretty good job at the moment.

Doesnt mean I have to like them. My first impressions of them were dreadful plastic rubbish. If I headed north I'd usually wait for an older 377 to avoid them.

 

[AM9]

Doesnt mean I have to like them. My first impressions of them were dreadful plastic rubbish. If I headed north I'd usually wait for an older 377 to avoid them.

Nobody said that you did, nor does it make any difference whether you do or not, they will be there for decades to come.
My post was in response to your assertion that getting rid of GTR et al was a solution to running the trains better (in your opinion). GTR's performance recently has delivered what was required on Thameslink, and as others have said, the assets including most of the staff would still be there whoever gets to run the franchise. So changes that enable us to be "rid of GTR" are so far from reality to put it mildly.

 

[Bald Rick]

I didn't realise he'd gone. Not before time. Now for Brown too...

Brown, as in Nick Brown? He left nearly 2 years ago.

 

[CBlue]

If TFL are as short of money as reported by the media, the last thing they want is additional infrastructure to manage.

GN or Thameslink is my main way of getting to London and its very rare to have had issues of any kind over the past two years - although I'm not a huge fan of the seats on the 387's.700s almost seem an improvement and certainly sway and lurch about less on the ECML..

Putting TFL roundels on the trains won't make them better.

 

[ijmad]

To slightly wrangle this thread back on topic, the tunnels still have some LU safety regulations, right? Do I remember seeing the cabs on 717s have some sort of cab phone and third rail safety gear that NR trains aren't normally required to have, but LU do?

And what would TfLs long term plans be? Could there be a possibility of converting the line back to Underground rather than NR? Sounds ridiculous at first, but when you compare the line to the Met line...

I don't think 'Underground' would ever be the right branding for a service that goes to Stevenage and terminates in London rather than running through the centre. I suspect they'll use London Overground branding, or possibly an entirely new branding (like Paris' Transalien) for these sorts of services. Might be time to introduce route identifiers (letters or numbers) if the Overground becomes much more complex than it is now.

Operationally, there's zero chance of this line being converted back to using Underground-style stock, if that's what you mean.

 

[hwl]

If TFL are as short of money as reported by the media, the last thing they want is additional infrastructure to manage.

GN or Thameslink is my main way of getting to London and its very rare to have had issues of any kind over the past two years - although I'm not a huge fan of the seats on the 387's.700s almost seem an improvement and certainly sway and lurch about less on the ECML..

Putting TFL roundels on the trains won't make them better.

This isn't about infrastructure or 365, 387, 700 run services, it is just about the 717 operated services from Moorgate. Moorgate its future Crossrail interchange and having in on the TfL map are big part of this.

 

[py_megapixel]

I don't think 'Underground' would ever be the right branding for a service that goes to Stevenage and terminates in London rather than running through the centre. I suspect they'll use London Overground branding, or possibly an entirely new branding (like Paris' Transalien) for these sorts of services. Might be time to introduce route identifiers (letters or numbers) if the Overground becomes much more complex than it is now.

Operationally, there's zero chance of this line being converted back to using Underground-style stock, if that's what you mean.

Not only would it be operationally bizarre, it's pointless, given that the Moorgate tunnels can accommodate full-sized rolling stock.

I would suggest that the most likely thing is 717s being taken on by Arriva Rail London and branded as London Overground, appearing in orange on the Tube map, as suggested by the thread title. However, I don't think it's likely that the 717s will interoperate with 378s (i.e. on the same routes, not in multiple of course) since both were built specifically for their respective routes and changing it doesn't really make a lot of sense.

 

[hwl]

Not only would it be operationally bizarre, it's pointless, given that the Moorgate tunnels can accommodate full-sized rolling stock.

I would suggest that the most likely thing is 717s being taken on by Arriva Rail London and branded as London Overground, appearing in orange on the Tube map, as suggested by the thread title. However, I don't think it's likely that the 717s will interoperate with 378s (i.e. on the same routes, not in multiple of course) since both were built specifically for their respective routes and changing it doesn't really make a lot of sense.

Exactly what would happen.

 

[Mikey C]

This isn't about infrastructure or 365, 387, 700 run services, it is just about the 717 operated services from Moorgate. Moorgate its future Crossrail interchange and having in on the TfL map are big part of this.

TfL could do that today if they weren't so proprietorial about only have their services on the Tube Map!

 

[hwl]

TfL could do that today if they weren't so proprietorial about only have their services on the Tube Map!

Agreed. The London Assembly has recently recommended that the Mayor put the Thameslink core back on the Tubemaps as it is accessible unlike TfL's options in the area (Northern Line). The Mayor said it was a matter for "RDG" - which is complete nonsense unless he wants a "contribution" to put in on the map!

 

[DJ_K666]

Brown, as in Nick Brown? He left nearly 2 years ago.

David Brown. Looks like a sawn off Nick Cave. Well, sort of.

I should point out that I hold grudges for one year only, and it hasn't been that long yet. I think it's a healthier thing than letting it fester for ages on end.

 

[DJ_K666]

Nobody said that you did, nor does it make any difference whether you do or not, they will be there for decades to come.
My post was in response to your assertion that getting rid of GTR et al was a solution to running the trains better (in your opinion). GTR's performance recently has delivered what was required on Thameslink, and as others have said, the assets including most of the staff would still be there whoever gets to run the franchise. So changes that enable us to be "rid of GTR" are so far from reality to put it mildly.

I worked for Go Aheat so I saw all the trouble from within. The sense in the bus side was that it was falling apart. Maybe Charlie boy going will change something but for me that's far too late and I'll eet that grudge against them for one year. But then I left Brighton and if it's imoved I haven't seen it. As I'm now 100 miles away. Let's put my comments into the context that new management might mean new ideas as to how to deliver the contractual obligations whether that's a new franchisee holder or not and leave it there.

 

[Bald Rick]

David Brown. Looks like a sawn off Nick Cave. Well, sort of.

I should point out that I hold grudges for one year only, and it hasn't been that long yet. I think it's a healthier thing than letting it fester for ages on end.

That’s a good thing to do. I hold grudges permanently. Particularly for Irish low cost airlines.

 

[ijmad]

Out of interest, does anything else regularly run on the ECML 'slows' between Finsbury Park and Welwyn GC? Or is it really just the Greater Northern services?

 

[bramling]

Out of interest, does anything else regularly run on the ECML 'slows' between Finsbury Park and Welwyn GC? Or is it really just the Greater Northern services?

In the current timetable, no. It’s just the GN inners, plus 2tph Thameslink Cambridge to King’s Cross, plus 2tph Thaneslink Welwyn to King’s Cross in peaks only. There is of course freight and ECS.

 

[DJ_K666]

That’s a good thing to do. I hold grudges permanently. Particularly for Irish low cost airlines.

Lol I think we all hold that one

 

[ijmad]

In the current timetable, no. It’s just the GN inners, plus 2tph Thameslink Cambridge to King’s Cross, plus 2tph Thaneslink Welwyn to King’s Cross in peaks only. There is of course freight and ECS.

In a world where TfL gained control over both GN and the Thameslink Metro services, one wonders if there might be an opportunity to rationalise these services a little so one station has trains to one London terminal.

 

[bramling]

In a world where TfL gained control over both GN and the Thameslink Metro services, one wonders if there might be an opportunity to rationalise these services a little so one station has trains to one London terminal.

In an ideal world, when the extra tracks were made available between Finsbury Park and Alexandra Palace they could have built platforms on the no.2 slow lines. This would have permitted Welwyn and Hertford to Moorgate services to have virtually full segregation inwards from Alexandra Palace, barring freight and ECS.

You could lump the residual GN services in with LNER, which if the Moorgate went to TFL would result in a three-way segregation between Moorgate (TFL), King’s Cross (LNER) and Core (TL), perhaps with the exception of a few services at the extremes of the day.

However, if you do this the commuter service to somewhere like Stevenage would now be provided by no less than three separate operators, compared to essentially one today (I’m working on the basis that LNER is a marginal provider of commuter services as things are now).

A GN/TL split off from Southern seems far more logical to me. Indeed it’s been proven to work reasonably well in the past.

One presumes GN inners would be added to the West Anglia TFL concession, as a separate concession for an operation which has just 25 trains is stupid. Apart from the TFL shopping list of orange paint all this would be doing is moving from one management team (GTR) to another (LO).