DfT advise TOCs that full timetable is to be restored on 6 July

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt we will be back to the office this year. It's very low gain for the very high risk.

 

[JonathanH]

This is as I suspected, which means you don't need a full service - a Saturday service (which on most lines is a weekday service minus any peak mucking around) would be fine. If a few trains get too busy, just run them longer.

I think you need to be cautious about simply saying a Saturday timetable is sufficient. Obviously office workers aren't going into work yet but other groups are and they may have their own 'peaks' - eg construction workers. I guess that the point is whether the peak timetable is more driven towards office flows or other workers in any given case.

I doubt we will be back to the office this year. It's very low gain for the very high risk.

Yes, but it is a difficult balance as this doesn't do the economy any good around those businesses that are geared up to support office workers.

My company have said they'll be taking method of transport into account when determining what order to ask people back to the office (among various other factors). For now, relying on public transport may knock you down the list. Though they are 'listening to government advice' - I'm not sure they're going to care about exact capacities of trains once that advice becomes more nuanced than currently!

I live ten minutes walk away from my office but there really isn't any point going there until all the people who catch public transport are there too.

There have actually be some discussions about staggered start times but, in practice, this is not really any more staggered than they are anyway.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I doubt we will be back to the office this year. It's very low gain for the very high risk.

And even moving further forward it'll be a 60/40 (3 days home, 2 office and v-v the following week, or whole week in office, whole week home) for many.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And even moving further forward it'll be a 60/40 (3 days home, 2 office and v-v the following week, or whole week in office, whole week home) for many.

Yes, I think this will very much be the trend, and it will lead to a cut of up to 50% in required peak capacity - meaning the whole concept of peak extras (which primarily exist in the South East anyway) can be binned off, and we can have a neat all day Takt with the odd bit of peak lengthening - far easier and cheaper to operate.

 

[Hadders]

Long term I think we'll see a big increase in long distance commuting.

If the office is in London, but you only need to go in 2 days a week why not live in Yorkshire, or Devon, or the North West etc. More bang for buck when it comes to housing, better quality of life, if only travelling a couple of times a week the cost will probably be similar to an annual season from somewhere like Reading. Yes, a longer journey on the days you do it but manageable of only doing it twice a week.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Long term I think we'll see a big increase in long distance commuting.

If the office is in London, but you only need to go in 2 days a week why not live in Yorkshire, or Devon, or the North West etc. More bang for buck when it comes to housing, better quality of life, if only travelling a couple of times a week the cost will probably be similar to an annual season from somewhere like Reading. Yes, a longer journey on the days you do it but manageable of only doing it twice a week.

Because London is forecast 33C Friday and nowhere else is

I'm in Devon right now on a legal social bubble and it's just pleasant. Mind you the South West is miles from anywhere, especially west of Exeter, although it is relatively cheap for Southern standards and the people are friendly, almost on a par with most north of the Watford Gap. Oh and it rains a fair bit. Oh and try getting cheap Advances from Plymouth to London without doing two or three splits! And try doing the run to London (or even to Exeter) in winter when Dawlish is (yet again!) experiencing high water!

 

[Bikeman78]

Yes, I think this will very much be the trend, and it will lead to a cut of up to 50% in required peak capacity - meaning the whole concept of peak extras (which primarily exist in the South East anyway) can be binned off, and we can have a neat all day Takt with the odd bit of peak lengthening - far easier and cheaper to operate.

The Dutch have been doing this for years. They have the same core timetable seven days a week. On weekdays the peak trains are longer, and some are extended beyond the core route, e.g. Maastricht to Alkmaar runs to Schagen. On Sundays the start up is later and some lines have a reduced frequency.

 

[Ianno87]

Long term I think we'll see a big increase in long distance commuting.

If the office is in London, but you only need to go in 2 days a week why not live in Yorkshire, or Devon, or the North West etc. More bang for buck when it comes to housing, better quality of life, if only travelling a couple of times a week the cost will probably be similar to an annual season from somewhere like Reading. Yes, a longer journey on the days you do it but manageable of only doing it twice a week.

And get loads done on the train journey => Bank up hours to finish a bit early on Friday.

This could be a huge game-changer for practical access to good employment opportunities for large areas of the country.

 

[Hadders]

And get loads done on the train journey => Bank up hours to finish a bit early on Friday.

This could be a huge game-changer for practical access to good employment opportunities for large areas of the country.

At my work we have a number of people who already do this. One even flies down from Glasgow a couple of times a week.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can I just remind everbody that this thread is to discuss the DfT request that TOCs introduce a full timetable from 6th July. Thanks

 

[infobleep]

Deleted my previous post as going too off topic.

Once a full timetable is introduced, hopefully they will be able to promote which train services are busy and which are not.

Be intresting to see what the passenger numbers are like for services like the 18:24 Clapham Junction to Haslemere or the 18:27 Clapham Junction to Exeter.

Prior to lock down those were busy as they were the first fast trains to stop at Clapham Junction since the 17:02 Clapham Junction to Alton service.

 

[bramling]

Sigh... So maybe some of the resistance IS coming from inside the industry. I can't say I can see much of a difference between staff on the railway and staff in a supermarket, with the latter having worked all the way through. Supermarkets had their moments when they cut back hours to enable shelves to be stocked, but now they are back to normal in most cases. Time for the railway to step up to the plate and do the same, accepting that more trains equals more space for those who travel equals less risk.

Notwithstanding the fact that many railway staff *have* worked right through this, and also notwithstanding the fact that many supermarkets still *aren’t* back to full opening hours, ultimately no matter how much some people stamp their feet it isn’t possible to run a service that requires a given level of resource when that level of resource simply isn’t there.

So in the real world if a hypothetical train crew depot has 50 running duties on a weekday, you are going to struggle to cover this is a proportion of the depot are absent due to shielding. Spare and cover duties exist, however these are required to sort out unforeseen and planned absence, for example sickness and annual leave, all of which are still going on. RDW is available at some - though not all - rail operators, but there is a limit to how far you can run on this, as ultimately quality time off work is required for wellbeing purposes. Reliance on excessive overtime in a safety-critical part of the rail industry ultimately brought us the Clapham Junction accident.

How feasible it is to run a full service will depend on how many are off due to shielding. I suspect this may vary from depot to depot, those locations with a higher proportion of older staff will naturally have more off shielding. The way the disposition of depots works does lead to some such variations as more desirable depots do tend to get the senior staff.

Meanwhile goodwill and flexibility from those at work is in some cases running dry. This shouldn’t really be surprising - even the most patient of minds will be tested having done a week of 8+ hour shifts with essentially naff all thanks from anyone and on several of these shifts you’ve got to within half an hour of finish and been instructed to continue for extra time to put the train away because there’s no relief, especially then emerging from work and seeing furloughed people lounging around lapping up the freeby leisure time.

 

[PG]

RDW is available at some - though not all - rail operators, but there is a limit to how far you can run on this, as ultimately quality time off work is required for wellbeing purposes. Reliance on excessive overtime in a safety-critical part of the rail industry ultimately brought us the Clapham Junction accident.

Indeed.

One would hope that the lessons from previous incidents have not been lost from the railways collective memory.

I recall reading a piece (in Modern Railways IIRC) saying that with the passage of time and with career progression being somewhat changed in the post-BR era that this (loss of collective memory) was already occurring - with the post xmas 2016 Cardiff area resignalling being a case in point.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-152017-serious-irregularity-at-cardiff-east-junction

 

[Peter0124]

TPE are increasing their services to 85% of the normal timetable from July 6th

TransPennine Express releases details of July timetable uplift

UK: TransPennine Express has announced details of the timetable improvements it plans to make from July 6 as lockdown measures are eased and more people return to work. The date has been selected by the Department for Transport for all operators to make similar improvements. TPE expects to run...

www.railwaygazette.com

 

[47421]

what is current situation re having to justify rail journeys? Are barrier staff or BTP challenging people as to why their journey is essential?

 

[Huntergreed]

what is current situation re having to justify rail journeys? Are barrier staff or BTP challenging people as to why their journey is essential?

No, you can travel for any reason, provided you have considered other modes of transport, despite what some TOC’s are claiming.

 

[Jamesrob637]

TPE are increasing their services to 85% of the normal timetable from July 6th

TransPennine Express releases details of July timetable uplift

UK: TransPennine Express has announced details of the timetable improvements it plans to make from July 6 as lockdown measures are eased and more people return to work. The date has been selected by the Department for Transport for all operators to make similar improvements. TPE expects to run...

www.railwaygazette.com

So basically just overnights plus direct Liverpool won't run.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

No, you can travel for any reason, provided you have considered other modes of transport, despite what some TOC’s are claiming.

Just checked the East Midlands Railway website. On the 'is your journey necessary?' page, the word 'essential' appears eight times.
Plus these tweets barked out today:

The weather is great but please remember that public transport is still for essential journeys only. Because of social distancing, we have limited space on trains, please keep it available for those who need it by not travelling for leisure.

As shops and hospitality settings begin to re-open please remember that public transport is still only for those making essential journeys. Please stay local, consider all other methods of transport and don’t travel by train for leisure.

It seems quite clear that that my business is not welcome, at all.

Northern say:

Remember - We are operating the railway for key workers to support the national effort. Please only travel if your journey is absolutely essential under the new government guidance.

The national effort presumably being to commit economic suicide and have a GDP lower than Antarctica!

 

[greyman42]

Just checked the East Midlands Railway website. On the 'is your journey necessary?' page, the word 'essential' appears eight times.
Plus these tweets barked out today:

Completely ignore these messages. You can travel as you please.

 

[Silverlinky]

Completely ignore these messages. You can travel as you please.

Except you can't because the changes announced yesterday do not come into effect until July 4th, and to counter that TOCS will be running as near to a full service as they can from July 6th.
Today is June 24th.....the "essential travel only" message has not been rescinded by the government, so the TOCs can't change the advice yet.

Facemasks became mandatory on June 15th, but the instruction to avoid public transport where possible" is still there.

The Government say " guidance remains to work from home if you can and avoid public transport where possible "
The Government say " Wherever possible people should continue to avoid public transport and walk, cycle or drive, but for some people this may not be an option."
Grant Shapps said " People should continue to avoid public transport wherever possible. But, as restrictions are carefully eased when it is safe to do so, it’s likely that we will see more people needing to use public transport."

It can't be much clearer....and those TOCS telling to to stay away are doing the right thing according to current guidelines.

Face coverings to become mandatory on public transport

From 15 June, face coverings will be required while using public transport in England.

www.gov.uk

 

[Huntergreed]

Except you can't because the changes announced yesterday do not come into effect until July 4th, and to counter that TOCS will be running as near to a full service as they can from July 6th.
Today is June 24th.....the "essential travel only" message has not been rescinded by the government, so the TOCs can't change the advice yet.

Facemasks became mandatory on June 15th, but the instruction to avoid public transport where possible" is still there.

Face coverings to become mandatory on public transport

From 15 June, face coverings will be required while using public transport in England.

www.gov.uk

I don't believe that 'essential travel only' was ever a message from the government, but rather TOC's interpreting the rules to be more restrictive than they actually are.

The advice is simply 'consider other means of transport first, but you are allowed to use public transport', which is a long way from 'essential only' or, from certain TOC's, 'key workers only'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The national effort presumably being to commit economic suicide and have a GDP lower than Antarctica!

For all I love the railway, and for all I feel sorry for those who are being affected by this message by basically still being in lockdown (and believe it should change, replaced by less distancing e.g. at least use one seat in each pair, masks and compulsory reservations), the number of non-car-owners and non-drivers (a driver can always hire if they need to) who are highly economically active is low and so even a complete wholesale closure of the entire railway system would not cause us to "commit economic suicide", nor would it cause us to have "a GDP lower than Antarctica".

I don't believe that 'essential travel only' was ever a message from the government, but rather TOC's interpreting the rules to be more restrictive than they actually are.

I think the Unions are probably pushing the message, and neither the TOCs nor the Government want a strike now.

 

[robk23oxf]

Except you can't because the changes announced yesterday do not come into effect until July 4th, and to counter that TOCS will be running as near to a full service as they can from July 6th.
Today is June 24th.....the "essential travel only" message has not been rescinded by the government, so the TOCs can't change the advice yet.

Facemasks became mandatory on June 15th, but the instruction to avoid public transport where possible" is still there.

The Government say " guidance remains to work from home if you can and avoid public transport where possible "
The Government say " Wherever possible people should continue to avoid public transport and walk, cycle or drive, but for some people this may not be an option."
Grant Shapps said " People should continue to avoid public transport wherever possible. But, as restrictions are carefully eased when it is safe to do so, it’s likely that we will see more people needing to use public transport."

It can't be much clearer....and those TOCS telling to to stay away are doing the right thing according to current guidelines.

Face coverings to become mandatory on public transport

From 15 June, face coverings will be required while using public transport in England.

www.gov.uk

You're a brave soul for saying that around these parts.

 

[Skymonster]

...the number of non-car-owners and non-drivers (a driver can always hire if they need to) who are highly economically active is low and so even a complete wholesale closure of the entire railway system would not cause us to "commit economic suicide"...

I thought the railway has been kept open during the virus for key workers - not for the highly economically active.

So even if the complete wholesale closure of the entire railway system did not cause us to commit economic suicide, it would presumably screw the key workers on whom we have apparently so much depended these last three months and for whom the railway is apparently vital.

 

[seaviewer]

It's many years since I had any involvement with train crew planning, but a weekday service used to take twice the number of staff required for a basic (no engineering works ) Sunday service. What is currently running South of the Thames is much less than a Sunday service.

I was puzzled by this. I thought Southern was running what is basically a Saturday service, but with some omissions. For example they have pinched the 377s from the London Bridge-Victoria service so they can carry tons of fresh air in 8-car trains to Eastbourne, half-hourly (and possibly elsewhere), all day. But there were at least six people on one such train this morning.
Brighton gets 6 tph (4 Thameslink+2 Southern), which isn't bad, IMHO

 

[greyman42]

It can't be much clearer....and those TOCS telling to to stay away are doing the right thing according to current guidelines.

Ignore the guidelines and stick to the government legislation.

 

[Bikeman78]

I was puzzled by this. I thought Southern was running what is basically a Saturday service, but with some omissions. For example they have pinched the 377s from the London Bridge-Victoria service so they can carry tons of fresh air in 8-car trains to Eastbourne, half-hourly (and possibly elsewhere), all day. But there were at least six people on one such train this morning.
Brighton gets 6 tph (4 Thameslink+2 Southern), which isn't bad, IMHO

You are right. Southern has run a Saturday service for several weeks. No idea what SWR or South Eastern are running.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I was puzzled by this. I thought Southern was running what is basically a Saturday service, but with some omissions. For example they have pinched the 377s from the London Bridge-Victoria service so they can carry tons of fresh air in 8-car trains to Eastbourne, half-hourly (and possibly elsewhere), all day. But there were at least six people on one such train this morning.
Brighton gets 6 tph (4 Thameslink+2 Southern), which isn't bad, IMHO

Blythe Bridge gets 10 trains per day, two every three hours, just saying!

 

[yorkie]

...Today is June 24th.....the "essential travel only" message has not been rescinded by the government, so the TOCs can't change the advice yet.

Facemasks became mandatory on June 15th, but the instruction to avoid public transport where possible" is still there....

There are some out of date paragraphs on some of the gov.uk pages; the correct and up-to-date guidance can be found here:

People with symptoms of a respiratory infection including COVID-19

Guidance for people with symptoms of a respiratory infection including COVID-19, or a positive test result for COVID-19.

www.gov.uk

The "essential travel only" message was officially dropped weeks ago; there is no requirement for any journey, by any means of transport to be for a so-called "essential" reason.

This has been discussed extensively in other threads, so I suggest we get back to discussing the timetable in this thread

 

[Jozhua]

Better than us never getting there [1]. But I wonder if sending even more trains carrying fresh air around the country is actually helpful as far as optics are concerned.

[1] and now no excuse for TOCs not to start producing printed timetables again

Yeah, but carting "fresh air" around the country is what we need ngl. Can't wait to see the arguments about no point in having longer trains unless they are at 90% utilisation die.