Ideas for new ECML services to benefit Lincolnshire

[PTR 444]

I’ve been thinking about some possible new services that could run on the ECML after HS2 to Leeds is complete, primarily to improve connectivity within Lincolnshire which currently has poor rail links to other regions. These could be operated either as part of the East Coat franchise or open access. Not sure if anyone has proposed these before:

1. Improved London - Lincoln service, with 1tph throughout the day between the two cities and occasional services extended to Cleethorpes via Market Rasen.

2. A new London - Boston service calling at Stevenage, St Neots, Huntingdon, Peterborough, Spalding and Sleaford. Some weekend and summer journeys could be extended to Skegness.

3. A new London Kings Cross - Sheffield via Retford and Worksop. I’m surprised this doesn’t get suggested more often on the forums as it is overall a faster route than the MML*.

4. A new inter-regional service connecting the North East with East Anglia. This could start at either Newcastle or Leeds and terminate at one of Norwich, Ipswich or Stansted Airport.

Thoughts?

*south of Retford at least. I don’t know what the Worksop line is like, but it only covers a fraction of the journey.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I’ve been thinking about some possible new services that could run on the ECML after HS2 to Leeds is complete, primarily to improve connectivity within Lincolnshire which currently has poor rail links to other regions. These could be operated either as part of the East Coat franchise or open access. Not sure if anyone has proposed these before:

1. Improved London - Lincoln service, with 1tph between the two cities and occasional services extended to Cleethorpes via Market Rasen.

2. A new London - Boston service calling at Stevenage, St Neots, Huntingdon, Peterborough, Spalding and Sleaford. Some weekend and summer journeys could be extended to Skegness.

3. A new London Kings Cross - Sheffield via Retford and Worksop. I’m surprised this doesn’t get suggested more often on the forums as it is overall a faster route than the MML*.

4. A new inter-regional service connecting the North East with East Anglia. This could start at either Newcastle or Leeds and terminate at one of Norwich, Ipswich or Stansted Airport.

Thoughts?

*south of Retford at least. I don’t know what the Worksop line is like, but it only covers a fraction of the journey.

1. Not a bad idea
2. Again worth considering
3. Post HS2 Sheffield will be served by HS2, no point of this service
4. Post-HS2 not much capacity as there will be the TPE services, Northern services as at present, 1 XC service per hour, 1 HS2 service from Birmingham, 2 HS2 services from London to Newcastle and 1 service from london Euston to York via HS2, it is also assumed that 1tph will be retained on the route from Kings Cross to Edinburgh with the other transferring to HS2.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I have heard a few suggestions:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/629168/high-speed-two-phase-two-strategic-case-appendix-hs2-released-capacity-study-summary-report.pdf

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page 22

 

[JKF]

It does seem strange to me to discount things on the basis of a post-HS2 scenario, which is realistically perhaps 15 years away as far as Yorkshire goes. Although organising new services can also take a number of years. Sheffield could be one for open access, but suspect they’d fight to get paths.

 

[BayPaul]

4. Post-HS2 not much capacity as there will be the TPE services, Northern services as at present, 1 XC service per hour, 1 HS2 service from Birmingham, 2 HS2 services from London to Newcastle and 1 service from london Euston to York via HS2, it is also assumed that 1tph will be retained on the route from Kings Cross to Edinburgh with the other transferring to HS2.

I could see the logic of the Edinburgh service turning left after Peterborough to terminate at Cambridge or elsewhere in East Anglia. Running it to London doesn't connect anywhere that isn't better connected going via HS2. Presumably Ely would be a major limiting factor.

Looking at the above map, it seems odd that there is such a variety of stopping patterns south of Doncaster. I would have thought that making everything semi-fast, so stopping at Doncaster and 2 other stations would have maximised capacity

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I could see the logic of the Edinburgh service turning left after Peterborough to terminate at Cambridge or elsewhere in East Anglia. Running it to London doesn't connect anywhere that isn't better connected going via HS2. Presumably Ely would be a major limiting factor.

Looking at the above map, it seems odd that there is such a variety of stopping patterns south of Doncaster. I would have thought that making everything semi-fast, so stopping at Doncaster and 2 other stations would have maximised capacity

Nothing has been finalised.

 

[JonathanH]

I’ve been thinking about some possible new services that could run on the ECML after HS2 to Leeds is complete, primarily to improve connectivity within Lincolnshire which currently has poor rail links to other regions. These could be operated either as part of the East Coat franchise or open access. Not sure if anyone has proposed these before:

1. Improved London - Lincoln service, with 1tph throughout the day between the two cities and occasional services extended to Cleethorpes via Market Rasen.

2. A new London - Boston service calling at Stevenage, St Neots, Huntingdon, Peterborough, Spalding and Sleaford. Some weekend and summer journeys could be extended to Skegness.

3. A new London Kings Cross - Sheffield via Retford and Worksop. I’m surprised this doesn’t get suggested more often on the forums as it is overall a faster route than the MML*.

4. A new inter-regional service connecting the North East with East Anglia. This could start at either Newcastle or Leeds and terminate at one of Norwich, Ipswich or Stansted Airport.

Thoughts?

*south of Retford at least. I don’t know what the Worksop line is like, but it only covers a fraction of the journey.

1. This appears to be the natural extension of what is already happening.

The problem with some of these ideas, which have their merits, appears to be matching up demand with capacity.

2. If commuting recovers, you would need a 8- or 12-car high capacity electric to provide the fast service to Stevenage, St Neots and Huntingdon but that isn't exactly appropriate for the extension to Spalding, Sleaford and Boston. Moreover, you need to reverse at Sleaford.

3. Is this a service for Retford, Worksop or Sheffield? Sheffield is eventually on HS2.

4. Given Stansted has short platforms and it looks like any capacity is taken up by a train to Norwich, that leaves Ipswich and Norwich. Ipswich doesn't currently justify an hourly service to Peterborough. Norwich to Cambridge and Stansted is the local. I don't see a third train to Norwich fitting so perhaps the aim could be Ipswich to Nottingham and Norwich to York or, perhaps more likely, Leeds. I don't see it going north of York because HS2 trains will need to use the available paths north of there. New trains can only really run where HS2 is releasing capacity.

What sort of train length do you see as being appropriate for each of these services?

 

[PTR 444]

1. This appears to be the natural extension of what is already happening.

The problem with some of these ideas, which have their merits, appears to be matching up demand with capacity.

2. If commuting recovers, you would need a 8- or 12-car high capacity electric to provide the fast service to Stevenage, St Neots and Huntingdon but that isn't exactly appropriate for the extension to Spalding, Sleaford and Boston. Moreover, you need to reverse at Sleaford.

3. Is this a service for Retford, Worksop or Sheffield? Sheffield is eventually on HS2.

4. Given Stansted has short platforms and it looks like any capacity is taken up by a train to Norwich, that leaves Ipswich and Norwich. Ipswich doesn't currently justify an hourly service to Peterborough. Norwich to Cambridge and Stansted is the local. I don't see a third train to Norwich fitting so perhaps the aim could be Ipswich to Nottingham and Norwich to York or, perhaps more likely, Leeds. I don't see it going north of York because HS2 trains will need to use the available paths north of there. New trains can only really run where HS2 is releasing capacity.

What sort of train length do you see as being appropriate for each of these services?

I was thinking all of these could be operated using class 800 Azumas.

1: Have you got a source for this? I didn’t think there were any official plans to extend LNER trains beyond Lincoln to Grimsby and Cleethorpes.

2: Sleaford has 3 platforms so I can’t see reversing being too much of an issue.

3: Primarily to benefit Retford and Worksop. If there is spare capacity on the ECML before HS2 phase 2b is built, implementing this service earlier and extending to Sheffield makes sense.

4: I was thinking the Norwich - Nottingham and beyond service could be diverted to Leeds via Newark and Doncaster. The Ipswich - Peterborough service could then be upped to hourly and extended to Nottingham to compensate for this.

PS: Is there still a through Norwich - Liverpool service via Sheffield, or has that now been split into two?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I was thinking all of these could be operated using class 800 Azumas.

1: Have you got a source for this? I didn’t think there were any official plans to extend LNER trains beyond Lincoln to Grimsby and Cleethorpes.

2: Sleaford has 3 platforms so I can’t see reversing being too much of an issue.

3: Primarily to benefit Retford and Worksop. If there is spare capacity on the ECML before HS2 phase 2b is built, implementing this service earlier and extending to Sheffield makes sense.

4: I was thinking the Norwich - Nottingham and beyond service could be diverted to Leeds via Newark and Doncaster. The Ipswich - Peterborough service could then be upped to hourly and extended to Nottingham to compensate for this.

PS: Is there still a through Norwich - Liverpool service via Sheffield, or has that now been split into two?

1. LNER is reportedly considering it. I’ve heard from some sources close to LNER (a friend of mine) that confirms this is true, I can’t remember where else I heard it.
3. There is no capacity spare before Phase 2b

There is still that service. Won’t be split until December 2021

 

[HST43257]

I was thinking about a train every hour to Lincoln (1tp2h calling all stations NNG - LCN and 1tp2h fast to LCN then extending to Cleethorpes calling at Market Rasen and TPE stops to Cleethorpes). This would probably be a 5 car that has split off another 5 car set. This could be an hourly Sheffield service. It would go with the Lincoln service up to NNG (limited stop) then Retford, Worksop and then a few stops but not all to get to Sheffield.

I know HS2 will serve Nottingham in a way but I was thinking that LNER 2tph from KGX would be good. Once would call at St Neots and Peterborough and the other would call at Grantham and Bingham.

 

[class26]

I was thinking about a train every hour to Lincoln (1tp2h calling all stations NNG - LCN and 1tp2h fast to LCN then extending to Cleethorpes calling at Market Rasen and TPE stops to Cleethorpes). This would probably be a 5 car that has split off another 5 car set. This could be an hourly Sheffield service. It would go with the Lincoln service up to NNG (limited stop) then Retford, Worksop and then a few stops but not all to get to Sheffield.

I know HS2 will serve Nottingham in a way but I was thinking that LNER 2tph from KGX would be good. Once would call at St Neots and Peterborough and the other would call at Grantham and Bingham.

If Lincoln had an hourly service (bot not enough Azumas though currently?) then I would suggest alternate Cleethorpes - Lincoln - Kings X via NNG then the other hour Lincoln - Kings x via Sleaford and Spalding.

 

[quantinghome]

I'm not in favour of mixed stopping patterns on the classic network post HS2. Connectivity is the main consideration as end to end speed is no longer a factor. All trains should stop at Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham and Doncaster. Retford and Newark should be well connected - perhaps not everything stopping but they should have direct connections to all major destinations and 3-4tph.

The one exception to this may be to provide an express London service to Doncaster and Hull which don't see a direct benefit from HS2.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Oh crikey. ECML Intercity Lincolnshire again...

 

[4-SUB 4732]

1. This appears to be the natural extension of what is already happening.

The problem with some of these ideas, which have their merits, appears to be matching up demand with capacity.

2. If commuting recovers, you would need a 8- or 12-car high capacity electric to provide the fast service to Stevenage, St Neots and Huntingdon but that isn't exactly appropriate for the extension to Spalding, Sleaford and Boston. Moreover, you need to reverse at Sleaford.

3. Is this a service for Retford, Worksop or Sheffield? Sheffield is eventually on HS2.

4. Given Stansted has short platforms and it looks like any capacity is taken up by a train to Norwich, that leaves Ipswich and Norwich. Ipswich doesn't currently justify an hourly service to Peterborough. Norwich to Cambridge and Stansted is the local. I don't see a third train to Norwich fitting so perhaps the aim could be Ipswich to Nottingham and Norwich to York or, perhaps more likely, Leeds. I don't see it going north of York because HS2 trains will need to use the available paths north of there. New trains can only really run where HS2 is releasing capacity.

What sort of train length do you see as being appropriate for each of these services?

I must be honest, I would suggest Ipswich is deserving of a service to Peterborough every hour. Just because the individual flow isn’t amazing, doesn’t mean passenger habits wouldn’t change.

A Colchester - Ipswich - Bury - Ely - March - Peterborough - Grantham - Newark - Retford - Doncaster - Wakefield - Leeds could work when paths arise. Great connectivity in places like Ely, Peterborough, Doncaster and Leeds; and could be entirely sensible for a 5/800.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

1. LNER is reportedly considering it. I’ve heard from some sources close to LNER (a friend of mine) that confirms this is true, I can’t remember where else I heard it.
3. There is no capacity spare before Phase 2b

There is still that service. Won’t be split until December 2021

Remember that even friends who say people are looking into it mean, usually, one thing: Government has asked them to check feasibility, and the answer has already come back as not feasible. But they tried. It’s all politics.

 

[PTR 444]

I am guessing that the open access operators Grand Central & Hull Trains will remain on the ECML once HS2 is up and running. If that is the case, would any more services stopping at both Grantham and Retford be considered "primarily abstractive", since Hull Trains already stops at both of these?

 

[Peter Kelford]

I see a lot which seems to be unviable due to a project that is still up in the air and not going to be around for a minimum of 6 years according to official (and thus unreliable, if past performance is anything to go by) estimates. In the meantime, I don't see why the HS2-incompatible services could not be run for the time being.

 

[CW2]

I am guessing that the open access operators Grand Central & Hull Trains will remain on the ECML once HS2 is up and running. If that is the case, would any more services stopping at both Grantham and Retford be considered "primarily abstractive", since Hull Trains already stops at both of these?

I would hope (and expect) that the post-HS2 ECML timetable could be entirely remapped, in much the way that the WCML one was after West Coast Route Modernisation. By that, I mean an independent timetabling team, sponsored by DfT, working up a timetable for all operators to then discuss amd negotiate improvements.
Such levels of co-operation are not without precedent, and it strikes me DfT hold all the cards at the moment.

 

[cle]

Will Grantham to Nottingham be electrified? An hourly service might be very competitive with the MML at around the 90-100 minute mark. Grantham to Nottingham is 30 mins by diesel today.

 

[class26]

I think before electrifying this line it will need some work to bring it up to scratch. the speed profile is up and down with a top speed at present of 75 but there are stretches of 60 and an annoying 50 for about 20 yards near Bottesford which has been there it seems for decades. Also 30 over the Trent. It is almost dead straight though so plenty of potential.

 

[HSTEd]

Theres not really any point making the line faster when the timetables are as padded to death as they are.

It's routine to arrive early at Nottingham and have to wait outside of the station for a platform.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Theres not really any point making the line faster when the timetables are as padded to death as they are.

It's routine to arrive early at Nottingham and have to wait outside of the station for a platform.

Sounds more like 'pathing' than 'padding' (whatever that is supposed to mean).

On the basis that a new long-distance ECML service would presumably be a fairly long train and terminate at Nottingham, lay over and return; the current track layout and platform length/configuration are hardly ideal.

 

[class26]

Theres not really any point making the line faster when the timetables are as padded to death as they are.

It's routine to arrive early at Nottingham and have to wait outside of the station for a platform.

the services with the most padding are the Liverpool - Norwich services. This is because they cross many main lines on their long journey and delays are very possible. A service starting in Nottingham I would hope would be timed better. There isn`t as much slack in the Skegness trains BTW

 

[HSTEd]

the services with the most padding are the Liverpool - Norwich services. This is because they cross many main lines on their long journey and delays are very possible. A service starting in Nottingham I would hope would be timed better. There isn`t as much slack in the Skegness trains BTW

Given the huge expenditure at Nottingham I would have hoped they could at least have permitted enough additional capacity to allow such trains to wait in platforms, as it is it renders the "two trains per hour" between Nottingham and Grantham even more of a joke than it was.

 

[rgoodall111]

I have heard a few suggestions:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/629168/high-speed-two-phase-two-strategic-case-appendix-hs2-released-capacity-study-summary-report.pdf

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Forgive me if I'm wrong but how would these 8tph fit across the double tracked Welwyn Viaduct (when current ECML services are 5tph LNER + on average 1tph Grand Central or Hull Trains) in addition to all the existing Thameslink/Great Nothern services. I thought that section was a real bottleneck and at capacity but haven't heard any proposals to rectify that.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but how would these 8tph fit across the double tracked Welwyn Viaduct (when current ECML services are 5tph LNER + on average 1tph Grand Central or Hull Trains) in addition to all the existing Thameslink/Great Nothern services. I thought that section was a real bottleneck and at capacity but haven't heard any proposals to rectify that.

You do realise they already plan to put 6.5 tph for LNER from December 2021 plus Grand Central and Hull Trains só it is no more than the current planned timetable