How to get people back on trains post COVID-19?

[RomeoCharlie71]

I agree this needs to happen before too long, but I suspect it will be another month before it does.

Unfortunately in Scotland it's going to be at least 6 weeks (i.e. the minimum duration of each phase 2 and 3) - which basically takes us up to the end of the school Summer holidays!

 

[NorthOxonian]

To get back on topic, removing the face covering requirement off-peak would certainly be one way to stimulate leisure travel, I definitely think it should be considered before the end of the August school holidays.

 

[MikeWM]

Let me use the last five days of the Rover I started on March 22nd and had to abandon due to the lockdown?

I've missed the point of the thread here, haven't I?

 

[Bletchleyite]

A "National Railcard" would be great. I don't know if I'd go for the complexity of a part-time season ticket, I'd just issue carnets on ITSO only at a reasonable discount - or just follow TfL's path and stop setting "ordinary" returns at penalty levels!

 

[Hadders]

Once things are fully back to normal I'd expect to see:

- A large advertising campaign
- TOC special offers e.g. seat sales, LM style Great Escape
- Cheaper 1st class Advance tickets at off peak times to encourage passengers to upgrade
- Kids for a quid encouraging family days out by train
- 15 months validity on railcards purchased in 2021

 

[Jamesrob637]

Apologies if this has already been discussed but I wondered what people thought would be the best way for TOCs to persuade both leisure travellers and commuters to start using the train again as the lockdown nears its end?

In Belgium the government has decided to offer all its residents 10 free rail journeys. Link below; I wonder if such a scheme might work over here?

Belgium to give all residents 10 free train journeys to encourage domestic tourism as lockdown ends

Latest bid from ministers to boost the economy

www.independent.co.uk

Have you seen the length of some of the trains in Belgium though?! No piddly little 2-car things; these are massive hauled sets and often composed of double deckers on a moderate to high frequency away from the quietest of branch lines! So they'll swallow people with comparative ease!

***shudders at everyone with free tickets piling onto yet another Northern Fail short-form or service booked 2-car which are gradually becoming rare - as gradually as the virus is shifting in the UK***

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Whatever happens in this vein, one thing is important.

The campaign has to start some considerable time before the emergency measures support is withdrawn - not at the point it is withdrawn.

It has been pointed out several times on this forum recently that while the TOCs are in this support, they get their management fee and all the revenue goes to the Treasury, so they have no incentive to make things more passenger friendly. However, they will need to start to rebuild the revenue stream before that support is anywhere near finishing, otherwise they might as well just hand in the keys right now.

 

[squizzler]

A lot of businesses choose to run adverts that give a nod towards their iconic TV adverts of the past. Maybe the Rail Delivery Group should remake "the age of the train" campaign from the 1980's, this time making sure whoever fronts it has not skeletons in their closet? It would certainly generate publicity!

 

[yorksrob]

Fares, fares, fares.

Make discretionary travel competitive by train for everyone.

 

[UP13]

A lot of businesses choose to run adverts that give a nod towards their iconic TV adverts of the past. Maybe the Rail Delivery Group should remake "the age of the train" campaign from the 1980's, this time making sure whoever fronts it has not skeletons in their closet? It would certainly generate publicity!

In principle I agree, but ditch the quote. Too many people will think of a certain disgraced celebrity when they hear thta phrase.

 

[deltic]

I would imagine government and operators would want a gradual build up, so first step would be to drop essential journeys only messaging and see what happens. Then highlighting less busy trains and promoting those. It will probably be a while before a proactive marketing campaign is started.

Someone however needs to address the discrepancy with air travel which seems to be fine operating without social distancing and actively encouraging people to disregard FCO travel advice which is presumably invalidating holiday makers travelers insurance

 

[yorksrob]

In principle I agree, but ditch the quote. Too many people will think of a certain disgraced celebrity when they hear thta phrase.

Yes, that could be an issue.

Personally, I'd go for a remake of the Concerto ad with the strapline "Britain's Railway".

I would imagine government and operators would want a gradual build up, so first step would be to drop essential journeys only messaging and see what happens. Then highlighting less busy trains and promoting those. It will probably be a while before a proactive marketing campaign is started.

Someone however needs to address the discrepancy with air travel which seems to be fine operating without social distancing and actively encouraging people to disregard FCO travel advice which is presumably invalidating holiday makers travelers insurance

The air travel discrepancy does need to be addressed.

On the subject of air conditioning, I was reading in "Modern Railways" that many train air conditioning systems are technically able to circulate a lot more outside air than they actually do. They're currently set to recycle more from in the carriage to save fuel. This strikes me as something that should be easily reprogrammable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think one key difference with aircraft is that they're easy to contact trace - you know exactly who is on board and people usually don't move seats (and you can be 100% strict on that short term) so contact tracing can be used to get everyone on an aircraft to self-isolate if there is a case. If the case is identified while in the air, you can even take them all to a Government facility for that, or at least testing.

None of that is true of trains. There aren't names on tickets, ID is not required so tickets are resold and passed around whether that might technically be allowed or not, people usually ignore seat reservations and people move around the train far more, with less cleaning done on board.

 

[squizzler]

In principle I agree, but ditch the quote. Too many people will think of a certain disgraced celebrity when they hear thta phrase.

Mind you, the same benefit could be achieved just putting about the rumour they are remaking the "age of the train" adverts. The tabloids will go into full-blown outrage mode and do your publicity for free!

 

[Bantamzen]

I think one key difference with aircraft is that they're easy to contact trace - you know exactly who is on board and people usually don't move seats (and you can be 100% strict on that short term) so contact tracing can be used to get everyone on an aircraft to self-isolate if there is a case. If the case is identified while in the air, you can even take them all to a Government facility for that, or at least testing.

If, and its probably an unlikely if, someone where to take ill during a flight with covid-like symptoms, passengers arriving in the UK would just need to be tested before leaving the airport. This might be one of the strategies that is adopted, I know BoJo is thinking about making the tests available for £140 a pop on arrival at UK airports, but where needed this test could be given to all passengers on an affected flight. Carting people off to detention centres and treated like criminals isn't necessarily needed.

​

None of that is true of trains. There aren't names on tickets, ID is not required so tickets are resold and passed around whether that might technically be allowed or not, people usually ignore seat reservations and people move around the train far more, with less cleaning done on board.

I do hope you are not planning on an extension of your compulsory reservation idea to include mandatory ID checks....

 

[trebor79]

Someone however needs to address the discrepancy with air travel which seems to be fine operating without social distancing and actively encouraging people to disregard FCO travel advice which is presumably invalidating holiday makers travelers insurance

I know someone who flew back from Canada last week. It was not pleasant. Crew in full hazmat suits, gloves, visors and respirators for the duration. All passengers masked for duration, and continually woken up by crew if the mask slipped a little during sleep.
Definitely do not want any of that on the railways!

 

[ChrisC]

Surely Northern and EMT are going to change their message of essential travel only by the beginning of July.
Northern especially need to reinstate some of their important services which have not run during the lockdown and I would suggest that they should begin with Leeds to Sheffield and Nottingham.

 

[kristiang85]

I think the main concentration would be on commuters, given so many will now realise that paying thousands a year to sit in an office is unnecessarily, and this will cause a huge dent in TOC's incomes.

In the long term, personally I would want to see flexible annual season tickets costed on a pro rata basis. E.g. if you pay 3/5 of the full annual cost you will be allowed 3 return journeys a week from the origin-destination for that calendar year (and obviously this can be worked out on a monthly basis too). Any more than that and you cannot use it and you will have to pay for a full journey. Surely in this era of smartcards they can be programmed to accept that.

If that doesn't work, then a better discount on carnet-style tickets or off peak carnets should be made available (e.g. the more you buy in advance, the bigger discount you get). Again, solely on smart cards to avoid abuse.


For leisure travel, they need to be clear ASAP that passengers are welcome on trains just for a weekend break or see friends/family in another location. I don't mind masks - that isn't going to stop me. But certainly it should be on an 'encouraged but not compulsory basis' so people with respiratory issues are not uncomfortable with travelling.

 

[KevinTurvey]

To bring people back promotional fares, national railcard for all is a great idea.

Two other side issues I would like to raise:
People may have got used to and enjoy working from home. However I have just received my home energy bills breakdown for March and April whilst working from home - I used 116% more energy than the same time last year.

The second issue is the amount of dual carriageway in and around Liverpool and Manchester that is coned down to 1 lane causing traffic congestion. What is going to happen to this.

 

[Dave91131]

Simplicity.

A passenger wishes to travel from A to B for which the ticket cost is X. Said passenger can board any train at A to get to B.

It won't happen for a multitude of reasons, but I'm confident ridership would increase if a lot of the ridiculously restrictive and complex rules regarding times / fares / routes were done away with.

 

[yorkie]

Simplicity.

A passenger wishes to travel from A to B for which the ticket cost is X. Said passenger can board any train at A to get to B.

It won't happen for a multitude of reasons, but I'm confident ridership would increase if a lot of the ridiculously restrictive and complex rules regarding times / fares / routes were done away with.

Anytime fares routed Any Permitted (or simply unrouted) are available for many journeys, but at a high price.

I think what you are calling for is the end of market-based pricing and yield management techniques.

This is a whole topic in its own right and has huge implications for the provision of capacity and also funding of the railways.

There are plenty of articles on the subject.

Research and Writing on Risk and Safety Policy - Economics: Differential Rail Pricing Employed by a UK Rail Company

Navigation: Home Page Comment Education Videos Differential Rail Pricing Employed by a UK Rail Company: A Case Study in Price Discrimination Introduction The discussion is about Virgin Trains and its joint venture with the Stagecoach Group. The focus will be on the Virgin Trains East

sites.google.com

Price discrimination has been used by Virgin to segment the travel market so that revenue can be maximised. There is a difference between the peak (commuting) period where the price elasticity of demand is inelastic and the off peak (leisure) period where price elasticity is price elastic (Bamford 2006). Under price discrimination, the monopolist rail company assumes that some business travellers are willing to pay a price above a level where marginal cost equals marginal revenue. The monopolist rail company (Virgin-Stagecoach) seeks to “maximise revenue and generate excess profit” (Bamford 2006:69-70). It is for this reason that the monopolist does not want to charge a single price. Instead, they will segment the market and charge more to consumers who are willing to pay extra to travel at the peak period.

What is Yield Management? | Clearly Explained!

We will answer the question 'What is yield management?’ YM is a strategy based on selling to the right customer, at the right time, for the right price.

www.revfine.com

In simple terms, yield management is a strategy based on selling to the right customer, at the right time, for the right price. Within the hotel industry, this typically means selling the right room, to the right guest(s), at the best possible time, for the highest amount, in order to maximise the revenue earned.

See also:

Long-distance trains with very low load factors

I wanted to comment briefly on the phenomenon of trains running on highly congested routes with large numbers of empty seats on them. I don't wish to pick on another user, but I thought that this comment in a recent thread deserved a little expansion: I don't see how cheaper fares/getting more...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[LowLevel]

Surely Northern and EMT are going to change their message of essential travel only by the beginning of July.
Northern especially need to reinstate some of their important services which have not run during the lockdown and I would suggest that they should begin with Leeds to Sheffield and Nottingham.

Bar the odd tickbox thing on the website I think EMR already have. I've noticed in the last couple of days the unfriendly posters have been removed and the social media messages changed a few days before that.

There is still some pushing to consider if you have to do what you're doing and also whether you have to do it by train, but given over the last few days there has been a bit of a spike in usage on local services and limited carriages with which to strengthen them that is not surprising.

 

[AM9]

Given that there are all these posts about gradually increasing patronage, the best thing would be to just run services as advertised. Whether potential passengers really are scared or just heeding the government's requests is irrelevant. The flow of passengers will rise as the population becomes more confident in getting about anyway.
Apart from honouring the availability of tickets and railcards that passengers couldn't use, the rush to the roads and the ensuing congestion will fairly quickly ensure that rail use rises to somewhere near pre pandemic levels, except for some commuting flows.
Commuting itself will take a hit, mostly as a result of working at home and other arrangements. The loss to the railway will be less in the long term as the capital and infrastructure costs of commuters exceed the revenue, so a largely leisure travel based service would potentially be more cost effective.
To sum up the above, there is no need to go for some of the give-away schemes many of which seem to be what posters would like for themselves. If the railway is so desperate for passengers, then just run services that passengers can rely on.

 

[yorksrob]

To sum up the above, there is no need to go for some of the give-away schemes many of which seem to be what posters would like for themselves. If the railway is so desperate for passengers, then just run services that passengers can rely on.

I wouldn't be quite so optimistic just yet.

My parents would love to use rail for leisure trips, but being fairly high risk for the virus, will be avoiding public transport for the time being.

I agree that running services people can rely on is key, but there probably still need to be some sweetners to entice the wary people back. I think there will also to be an effort to remove the barriers that made rail so uncompetitive for many people even before the crisis - particularly those who don't fir into any of the railcard categories.

 

[anthony263]

Didn't they give away some tickets offering passengers 1 free journey after all the chaos from the hatfield disaster?

 

[AM9]

I wouldn't be quite so optimistic just yet.

My parents would love to use rail for leisure trips, but being fairly high risk for the virus, will be avoiding public transport for the time being. ...

Optimism is a subjective matter. Nobody wants the rush back to packed trains with an attendent risk of ramping the infection rate up. A steady, more natural rise as travellers see rail as available would be the preferred way ahead, - indeed far batter than the risk of another shutdown. For those who regard rail as a genuine high risk, I doubt that bribing them with cheap travel will trump their perception of safety and future health.

... I agree that running services people can rely on is key, but there probably still need to be some sweetners to entice the wary people back. I think there will also to be an effort to remove the barriers that made rail so uncompetitive for many people even before the crisis - particularly those who don't fir into any of the railcard categories.

That might be necessary at the margins, but not until 2021 when most activities have resumed in their new normal state. There are a lot of "do this to benefit the railway" with an unspoken "because it would suit me" suggestions here. Sweetners still have to be paid for by those who would travel anyway, so in my opinion, there's little to be gained from them. As so many refer to more smooth running services elsewhere in Europe, a well run railway sells itself. Maybe the staff need to have some 'attitude training' to ease the customer interface issues.

 

[yorksrob]

Optimism is a subjective matter. Nobody wants the rush back to packed trains with an attendent risk of ramping the infection rate up. A steady, more natural rise as travellers see rail as available would be the preferred way ahead, - indeed far batter than the risk of another shutdown. For those who regard rail as a genuine high risk, I doubt that bribing them with cheap travel will trump their perception of safety and future health.



That might be necessary at the margins, but not until 2021 when most activities have resumed in their new normal state. There are a lot of "do this to benefit the railway" with an unspoken "because it would suit me" suggestions here. Sweetners still have to be paid for by those who would travel anyway, so in my opinion, there's little to be gained from them. As so many refer to more smooth running services elsewhere in Europe, a well run railway sells itself. Maybe the staff need to have some 'attitude training' to ease the customer interface issues.

I agree that pre 2021 the key will be to get things up and running and remove the negative messaging.

But afterwards, the railway will need to be more of a leisure railway. I make no bones about the fact that I am a railway passenger first and foremost, and frankly there are some journeys that I do make, that I probably wouldn't were I a motorist or not a rail enthusiast.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree that pre 2021 the key will be to get things up and running and remove the negative messaging.

But afterwards, the railway will need to be more of a leisure railway. I make no bones about the fact that I am a railway passenger first and foremost, and frankly there are some journeys that I do make, that I probably wouldn't were I a motorist or not a rail enthusiast.

The upside of that is that a leisure railway is less "peaky" (other than Friday evenings) and so much cheaper to resource.

 

[yorksrob]

The upside of that is that a leisure railway is less "peaky" (other than Friday evenings) and so much cheaper to resource.

Indeed. Particularly for areas outside of London which were never really resourced to cope with a peak in the same way as the south east in the first place.

 

[squizzler]

XC is a good example of a leisure orientated operator, so arguably the 'innovations' they have brought to the market in terms of their ticketing and reservations should find their way onto other operators.

Arguably, the fares reform proposed by the RDG under their 'Big Plan Big Changes' will bring all this and more, which is why I personally am in favour of it. The legacy fares system was already from a very different world before C19, and the market for business travel in particular might have changed more in the last three months than it had since the early 1990s when the current ticket framework was fixed.