could we see Mark 2/3 coaches modified to be accessible?

[popeter45]

Mark 2 carriages have been used in the last few years as short term usage when TOC's have a shortage of there own rolling stock (e.g. TfW needed them for the Rhymney Line while they had DMU's out of action for PRM upgrades) or special usage (e.g. the six nation rugby specials)
wonder if we could see some LHCS being PRM'ed so they can keep renting them out for this kind of purpose?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyone wanting LHCS for that purpose need just grab themselves some Mk4s, which already are.

 

[JonathanH]

I think we are also getting to the point where this kind of relief fleet isn't needed any more. The places where LHCS has operated in recent years now has (or will shortly have) sufficient rolling stock.

 

[HSTEd]

We have a flood of EMUs that are idle and are considerably more modern than Mark 2s.
I'd say it is less likely than converting some EMUs into hauled stock.

 

[JonathanH]

We have a flood of EMUs that are idle and are considerably more modern than Mark 2s.
I'd say it is less likely than converting some EMUs into hauled stock.

I'm pretty sure that isn't likely either but agree your point that it would be more likely than having PRM modified Mark 2s.

 

[edwin_m]

Presumably the power-door Mk3 fleets are PRM-compliant already. So there's a design available if anyone else wants to do it, along with the lesson that it took a lot more time and effort than expected. Mk2s, being that much older and with no existing design for conversion, would be harder.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably the power-door Mk3 fleets are PRM-compliant already. So there's a design available if anyone else wants to do it, along with the lesson that it took a lot more time and effort than expected. Mk2s, being that much older and with no existing design for conversion, would be harder.

What's the point doing it when Mk4s are already compliant and will be available very soon?

 

[edwin_m]

What's the point doing it when Mk4s are already compliant and will be available very soon?

I'm not sure why anyone would need it at all, but if they do there have been suggestions of gauging issues with Mk4s on routes cleared for Mk3s, as well as being heavier which might affect journey times. Mk2s are virtually go-anywhere.

 

[Mollman]

I seem to recall BR did actually convert one Mk2 to have powered doors as a trial in the early 90s, but nothing came of it.

 

[JonathanH]

I seem to recall BR did actually convert one Mk2 to have powered doors as a trial in the early 90s, but nothing came of it.

There are a few Mk2s with power doors on the other side of the world - it doesn't necessarily make them PRM compliant.

File:Metlink SW 3394 at Masterton Station.JPG - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[hexagon789]

Mark 2 carriages have been used in the last few years as short term usage when TOC's have a shortage of there own rolling stock (e.g. TfW needed them for the Rhymney Line while they had DMU's out of action for PRM upgrades) or special usage (e.g. the six nation rugby specials)
wonder if we could see some LHCS being PRM'ed so they can keep renting them out for this kind of purpose?

I suspect not given the time and difficulties required to bring them up to spec. For the same time and not much less money you could order a brand-new fleet which has the added advantage of having a much longer useful service life being new.

 

[Mollman]

There are a few Mk2s with power doors on the other side of the world - it doesn't necessarily make them PRM compliant.

File:Metlink SW 3394 at Masterton Station.JPG - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I know that, but fitting in PIS and disabled & retention tank toilets are not as difficult to fit as powered doors.

 

[py_megapixel]

Well Mk3s have two proven designs for powered doors - the plug doors on Chiltern and the pocket doors on ScotRail - and everything else is reasonably trivial to fit.

But if you wanted some intercity type rolling stock, why would you choose costly modifications to already outdated rolling stock over the Meridians and Coradias shortly to be released from the midland mainline, the ex-LNER Mk4 carriages, or ordering Mk5 carriages?

In my opinion, it could happen, but realistically won't.

 

[Speed43125]

It is worth noting that at Doncaster Wabtec there is an old VTWC Mk.2 which was used to trial the fitment of sliding doors for the HSTs, so I would presume if for some reason someone wanted it fitted, they'd be able to.

 

[Nym]

But that assumes a level of speed and competence at Wabtec that just isn't apparent at the moment. The delays are for a reason, and they basically had a blank slate for their own design, so there's only one place to lay blame for this.

 

[hexagon789]

If anything was to get PRM mods, surely it would be Mk3s and that's assuming it's worth the hassle and cost against ordering new stock.

 

[43096]

It is worth noting that at Doncaster Wabtec there is an old VTWC Mk.2 which was used to trial the fitment of sliding doors for the HSTs, so I would presume if for some reason someone wanted it fitted, they'd be able to.

It’s a Mark 3, is it not? 11028, if I recall correctly.

 

[43096]

But that assumes a level of speed and competence at Wabtec that just isn't apparent at the moment. The delays are for a reason, and they basically had a blank slate for their own design, so there's only one place to lay blame for this.

That’s a rather simplistic view of it. Whilst undoubtedly Wabtec is at fault, it is not 100% to blame: the condition of the vehicles was far worse than it was lead to believe, for example.

 

[Speed43125]

It’s a Mark 3, is it not? 11028, if I recall correctly.

Yep, you're right, 11028 it is. My apologies, must just be I associate that livery with Mk.2s, sorry about that.

 

[37424]

Mk2's are past it obviously there are ready made solutions for MK3 but where is the market?

Obviously up to this year you could potentially use charter stock on scheduled services providing it met certain requirements such as central locking etc. Now for scheduled services you really need a fully compliant train and the power door conversion isn't cheap which you don't need for charter operation with Stewards etc. Plus of course there are potentially MK4's available. So now if we look at the market for these service it was mainly for regional services who were struggling for DMU capacity. But if we look at the market now we have the following issues.

1. The virus reducing demand for possibly quite some time.
2. TOC's such as Anglia receiving new larger capacity fleets.
3. More new fleets in the pipeline which will free up older DMU's for lease with any TOC's that are struggling for capacity.

So taking the above into account I think the answer is no.

 

[Nym]

That’s a rather simplistic view of it. Whilst undoubtedly Wabtec is at fault, it is not 100% to blame: the condition of the vehicles was far worse than it was lead to believe, for example.

That still remains the fault of Wabtec for not carrying out sufficient vehicle surveys in order to inform their decision. Nor realising the number of variants that would be apparent.

 

[mmh]

What's the point doing it when Mk4s are already compliant and will be available very soon?

You can't just uncouple a Mk4 from a rake and stick a loco on the rest when you need to, they have fixed couplings within the set.

 

[43096]

That still remains the fault of Wabtec for not carrying out sufficient vehicle surveys in order to inform their decision. Nor realising the number of variants that would be apparent.

Do please tell us how you do those surveys properly without a vehicle lift.

 

[XAM2175]

You can't just uncouple a Mk4 from a rake and stick a loco on the rest when you need to, they have fixed couplings within the set.

I'm reading the comment as meaning that you can have entire rakes of Mk IVs to change around as required before having to start on Mk IIIs .

 

[edwin_m]

That still remains the fault of Wabtec for not carrying out sufficient vehicle surveys in order to inform their decision. Nor realising the number of variants that would be apparent.

We probably don't know whether they caveated their bid accordingly, so could claim extra payments when the actual condition of the stock turned out not to be as they assumed.

 

[randyrippley]

how do you put new doors into a rusting body held together by paint? The mk2 fleet had a reputation as rust buckets

 

[Nym]

Do please tell us how you do those surveys properly without a vehicle lift.

And what parts associated with a power door conversion cannot be seen from a saloon, gantry, walkway or pitted road?

 

[Journeyman]

how do you put new doors into a rusting body held together by paint? The mk2 fleet had a reputation as rust buckets

Mark 2s also have very unreliable electrical systems. I spent some time working with Caledonian Sleeper a few years ago, and trying to get enough lounge and seated cars out into service every night was an absolute nightmare. The Achilles heel is the motor alternator set that converts the ETH supply from the loco into various voltages needed for heating, aircon and lighting - they fail if you look at them too hard, and changing them over is a massive job. It doesn't help that there's several incompatible designs as well.

Apart from anything else, it seems pretty obvious to me that there's going to be a big drop in peak travel demand, and this coupled with new stock being delivered is going to result in a lot of spare stock knocking about. We won't need odd micro-fleets any more. I wonder if this is potentially the death knell for things like the Class 769 and D-Train.

 

[hexagon789]

You can't just uncouple a Mk4 from a rake and stick a loco on the rest when you need to, they have fixed couplings within the set.

You can take out intermediate vehicles though as required

 

[43096]

And what parts associated with a power door conversion cannot be seen from a saloon, gantry, walkway or pitted road?

Don't forget that when Wabtec were pricing the work the vehicles were still in daily service with GWR and to get access you're assuming GWR would give access to look at them. I have no idea if such access was granted.

Evidently you are unaware of both the nature of the modification and the fact that work is more than just about fitting doors - there's also overhaul work on the entire vehicle to make it fit for another 8-10 years. The door fit is to fit sliding doors (not plug) which require a door pocket along the bodyside. This uses space where the toilet was - an area that is exceptionally hard to get at and may not have been looked at since they were built.