Integrated transport - bus routes that should be integrated with the rail network.

[Old Yard Dog]

Longer distance buses that I have found useful over the years as a non-league football supporter include

93 Scarborough - Whitby - Middlesbrough
500 Banbury - Bracknell
XL Kings Lynn - Peterborough
X4 Northampton - Kettering - Corby
6 Durham - Spennymoor - Barnard Castle
9 Wolverhampton - Bridgnorth (for the SVR to Kidderminster)

All of these would benefit from integration with rail.

Other candidates might include

4/X4 Chester - Mold
2 Wrexham - Ruabon - Oswestry
5 Wrexham - Ruabon - Llangollen
5 Bangor - Caernarfon
737/747 Bradford - Leeds/Bradford airport
757 Leeds - Leeds/Bradford airport
36 Leeds - Harrogate - Ripon

and buses to smaller towns in Scotland like Peterhead, Brechin, Methil, Hawick, St Andrews and Forfar

 

[RT4038]

And with that you sum up the problem!

What you're actually doing is being symbiotic - making you and them money - by making through journeys viable that weren't viable before.

That people don't get that is one key part of the problem under discussion here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ansport-as-a-whole.205481/page-7#post-4631580

As for this thread - pretty much every regional bus service that calls at a railway station. PlusBus is great but underpublicised. And there's no model at all for using a bus in the middle of a rail journey, e.g. something like Bletchley-MKC, MKC-Oxford (X5), Oxford-wherever.

Wales has even better examples but have wilfully decided not to pursue that model with Traws, which beggars belief as doing so wouldn't have detracted from other uses! The whole Snowdon Sherpa network (mostly tendered, so again nothing stopping them) is a perfect example. They prefer building a small stone bus shelter round the back of Betws station opposite a car park, laughably calling it platform 3, and leaving the operators to it.

So - Commercial bus companies and rail franchise holders, normally painted as avaricious money making machines, are seemingly not able to see that through ticketing is making both them and the railway company money. In fact they are so unable to see this that all over the country existing through ticket schemes have gradually fallen into disuse. And this is not confined to one company or owning group, it affects them all. I would suggest that there are some other factors at play here. [Clue: Bus operators not actually making any money out of it....]

 

[biko]

There's another key phrase: As far as I know private operators are making a profit?

I'm sure eg. Arriva are not running train services at a loss. Perhaps some of our Dutch friends could enlighten us

Regional bus and train services run under contract to the provinces or regional transport authorities. They specify for example that buses should connect to trains at the important interchange stations. Most and maybe even all (I am not sure) concessions require a subsidy, so the private operators don’t do it for free. This does not mean connections are always great though. The bus to my neighbourhood from the railway station leaves at the time when all trains are arriving meaning there is a 30 minute wait, thus walking is faster.

But the private operators in the Netherlands are not taking the commercial risk of the revenue, as they do in the UK. The private operators of buses are making a profit because the Dutch government is taking this revenue risk.

They actually do sometimes carry a revenue risk, for example in the new concession IJssel-Vecht, but they do have a monopoly within the area. It’s the approximately the kind of revenue risk that train franchises in the UK have, they get a subsidy but carry the risk in case the passenger projections were wrong.

 

[farci]

But the private operators in the Netherlands are not taking the commercial risk of the revenue, as they do in the UK. The private operators of buses are making a profit because the Dutch government is taking this revenue risk.

Correct! Is this not a better idea? Is public transport not a public service like, er, ROADS, paid from taxation?

 

[topydre]

The TrawsCymru network in Wales would be ideal: it's subsidised by Transport for Wales (who also fund Transport for Wales Rail Services), rail links within Wales (i.e. north-south) are pretty sparse and the routes of many of the TrawsCymru services seem to be inspired by former rail routes.
Then again, when many of these buses were run by Arriva, who also ran the rail franchise, integration was pretty much non-existent, so I'm not holding my breath.

One pitfall (for the operators) that I can see is that through ticketing suggests to me that if you miss your connection, you have a right to be transported to your destination, even if that involves a long distance taxi for a single passenger. Considering the highly variable times at which TrawsCymru buses arrive at their destination, I can see quite a lot of business for local taxi firms...

 

[47444]

But the private operators in the Netherlands are not taking the commercial risk of the revenue, as they do in the UK. The private operators of buses are making a profit because the Dutch government is taking this revenue risk.

My understanding is that most, if not all, privately operated bus and rail concessions in the Netherlands are "net cost" with the operators taking revenue risk.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The TrawsCymru network in Wales would be ideal: it's subsidised by Transport for Wales (who also fund Transport for Wales Rail Services), rail links within Wales (i.e. north-south) are pretty sparse and the routes of many of the TrawsCymru services seem to be inspired by former rail routes.

And yet when designing Traws, the Welsh Government specifically decided not to follow that path, which I think is silly.

 

[RT4038]

My understanding is that most, if not all, privately operated bus and rail concessions in the Netherlands are "net cost" with the operators taking revenue risk.

So the fares system/service levels are effectively underwritten by the Government, with the operators taking a risk on their own performance. Any changes to the fares system which threatened the operators revenue assumptions would require operator agreement or the 'franchise' to be renegotiated/relet?

 

[RT4038]

Correct! Is this not a better idea? Is public transport not a public service like, er, ROADS, paid from taxation?

It may well be, but would require funding, which this country has so far not been prepared to do. And no, I do not think public transport is a public service in the same way as roads are.

 

[biko]

So the fares system/service levels are effectively underwritten by the Government, with the operators taking a risk on their own performance. Any changes to the fares system which threatened the operators revenue assumptions would require operator agreement or the 'franchise' to be renegotiated/relet?

The fares system is indeed prescribed by the regional authority, the authority (in most cases the province) determines a price per km. If the authority wants to lower prices, the operator can ask for compensation. That will probably mean a slightly increased subsidy.

 

[Llandudno]

And yet when designing Traws, the Welsh Government specifically decided not to follow that path, which I think is silly.

The Traws network should really be branded Transport for Wales with a similar livery/colour scheme as their trains.

There should be a TfW timetable booklet, ok old fashioned but certainly an eVersion on line containing details of all Rail and Traws routes in Wales. Ideally there should be better (some!) coordination between bus and rail, but there are some decent joint travel opportunities if you know about them, ok it may mean waitingthe best part of an hour at the likes of Porthmadog or Machynlleth for connecting buses or trains, but they are both pleasant places for a cup of coffee or a beer whilst waiting for your connection.

Of course there should be through fares, but even if the booklet/eVersion promoted the North/Mid Wales day rover ticket it would be a start.

A far better use of Welsh tax payers money than offering free Traws bus travel to everyone at the weekend!

 

[RT4038]

The fares system is indeed prescribed by the regional authority, the authority (in most cases the province) determines a price per km. If the authority wants to lower prices, the operator can ask for compensation. That will probably mean a slightly increased subsidy.

And presumably the 'authority' prescribes the services/timetables to be operated too?

 

[biko]

And presumably the 'authority' prescribes the services/timetables to be operated too?

Depends on the concession, but that does not need to be the case. In a recent tender for a relatively rural area, some important routes were fixed and needed to have a high frequency (called A routes). These are seen as the main network that supplement the trains. B routes have lower frequencies and need only to connect certain areas and C routes were existing routes that are less important (school buses and other lightly used routes). B routes may be shuffled as long as all areas currently served are still served, C routes can be removed or replaced by a community bus service with volunteers. Operators always can add more routes if they think that is needed. So there is some freedom in planning services, but the extent depends on what the transport authority wants.

 

[tbtc]

The thread on the UK's inability to do integrated transport has got me thinking. Which bus routes could be sensibly integrated into the current rail network?

The OP asked about which routes could be used - but we seem to be stuck in an argument about the practicalities of co-ordinating things (mainly in Wales), rather than suggestions for suitable routes.

Whilst I appreciate the nostalgia of focussing on routes closed in the 1960s (or focussing on villages/towns with no train station nowadays), I think that two areas worth investigating would be:

a. routes that link towns to the mainline - e.g. in the early Virgin days, there was a (Stagecoach operated) "58" from Macclesfield to Buxton, which provided the town with alternativer links to WCML destinations like Birmingham/ London (compared to travelling via Stockport). Don't just think of places with no train service at the moment or following historic lines (e.g. Buxton to Matlock) but consider routes unsuitable for heavy rail (where buses can fill the gaps between lines)

b. train lines with only limited service, where a bus service could fill the gaps - e.g. there's only a peak service from Goole to Knottingley/ Leeds, but a bus from Goole to Knottingley could be used to trial demand for an increased train service (connecting at Knottingley with half hourly trains to Leeds), as well as giving people the confidence to plan to use the train if their circumstances change - e.g. if there's only one train a day then I'd have to be pretty confident about finishing work on time to be certain I could rely on the train - similarly, if meetings finished earlier then I might be kicking around Leeds for a couple of hours waiting on that one train - but if there were buses connecting every couple of hours to trains from Leeds to Knottingley then I'd feel a lot happier about taking the train

c. tourist trains (e.g. Midland Mainline used to have an arrangement for a connecting coach to Alton Towers) - there are a lot of tourist places that never had train stations (or where there's no feasible opportunity to re-open one), but you could encourage leisure travel by having a connecting coach for people on days out - it wouldn't even have to be *to* somewhere significant, it could conceivably be a rambling drive through the countryside that comes back to another train station - e.g. from Alnwick station, along the coast round round Bamburgh and back to Alnwick... from Aviemore down the Spey valley towards Keith and back again) - could be a way of encouraging tourists to penetrate places that trains can't serve but which would be a long way on a regular bus service from Newcastle to Bamburgh or Edinburgh/Glasgow to Keith

There are a few places that fit the "a" category round here - e.g. there's a regular bus service from Mansfield to Chesterfield but at the moment Mansfield people are restricted by the Robin Hood line (only hourly north to Worksop, not going south of Nottingham in the other direction) - if you could use the bus to Chesterfield then you could get to Leeds/ Birmingham/ London a lot better than changing at Worksop/ Nottingham. Maybe the express bus from Sunderland to Durham?

In the "b" category, I guess the obvious examples are places like Hellifield - Colne (where there is a railway, but only a Sunday service), but there are some lines with regular services that have intermediate stations with only a token service - it doesn't just need to be about places with *no* trains, it can be about underserved places (e.g. those that could have an increased train service but resources are required elsewhere for most of the day, or there's little scope to stop longer distance trains there (maybe you could run a bus from Morpeth to the villages that only get the token commuter train for Newcastle at the moment?).

 

[GusB]

To be, obvious places would be the likes of Ellon, Peterhead and Fraserburgh on the A90 corridor north of Aberdeen; the larger towns like Turriff, Banff, Buckie etc. along the route of the Bluebird 35 and; those along the Deeside corridor such as Banchory and Braemar.

*Edit*
Having looked at brfares.com, it would seem that some of those places do have <TOWN> BUS listed, as does Lossiemouth of all places. I'd be curious to know how you go about obtaining those tickets; they're neither advertised on plusbus.info, nor are they available in National Rail Enquiries. Would they be available through TVMs, or would it be ticket offices only?

 

[Bletchleyite]

a. routes that link towns to the mainline - e.g. in the early Virgin days, there was a (Stagecoach operated) "58" from Macclesfield to Buxton, which provided the town with alternativer links to WCML destinations like Birmingham/ London (compared to travelling via Stockport). Don't just think of places with no train service at the moment or following historic lines (e.g. Buxton to Matlock) but consider routes unsuitable for heavy rail (where buses can fill the gaps between lines)

Quite early on the Truronian (now I think part of FirstGroup) bus company put on a service branded "The Helston Branchline" which did exactly that. Like the two Welsh examples the bus stop for this at Redruth has a platform number, and it is still in the railway timetable and fares system even though I think it's lost the brand and is now just a regular First service.

b. train lines with only limited service, where a bus service could fill the gaps - e.g. there's only a peak service from Goole to Knottingley/ Leeds, but a bus from Goole to Knottingley could be used to trial demand for an increased train service (connecting at Knottingley with half hourly trains to Leeds), as well as giving people the confidence to plan to use the train if their circumstances change - e.g. if there's only one train a day then I'd have to be pretty confident about finishing work on time to be certain I could rely on the train - similarly, if meetings finished earlier then I might be kicking around Leeds for a couple of hours waiting on that one train - but if there were buses connecting every couple of hours to trains from Leeds to Knottingley then I'd feel a lot happier about taking the train

The Conwy Valley has the X19, now a tendered service after the commercial X1 was binned after Express Motors folded. However, while the bus service is timed to fill in gaps in the train service rather than compete with it (which is good), it is neither in the railway ticketing nor fares system. This is fine for those using Welsh concessionary passes as they are valid on both, but is a bit silly for everyone else as they clearly complement each other and do not compete.

Between the bus and the train you've basically got roughly an hourly service, and it wouldn't take much tidying up to make it *actually* hourly clockface (the train can easily do a 3 hourly clockface service, and indeed near enough does, and running times are near-identical between the two modes) and put it in the railway timetable so both come up! Then when you put in Manchester to Betws, say, which again takes you (along with the Sherpa S2) into the key Snowdonia hiking territory, you don't get such a dire offering!

And talking of that - why in goodness' name isn't there a Snowdon Sherpa PlusBus (from Betws and Bangor)? It's crying out for it.

Similarly up in bonnie Scotland on a Sunday the first winter train from Fort Bill to Glasgow used to arrive too late to connect to South East England that day. I believe there is now a morning train, solving this, but for a long time the Citylink coach to Glasgow was the only option to get down South on a Sunday if you needed to (and is a nice scenic run in its own right - a particular memory of it I have is a couple of backpackers legging it across the moor to flag it down literally in the middle of nowhere). It runs down the road that near parallels the railway...but again was never put in the timetable. Plain silly. (Putting it in the ticketing system would be more complex as it's a reservable service and usually fills up, so you'd need some sort of interface to NRS, but it would at least make sense for rail passengers to know it exists even if they couldn't price it!)

c. tourist trains (e.g. Midland Mainline used to have an arrangement for a connecting coach to Alton Towers) - there are a lot of tourist places that never had train stations (or where there's no feasible opportunity to re-open one), but you could encourage leisure travel by having a connecting coach for people on days out - it wouldn't even have to be *to* somewhere significant, it could conceivably be a rambling drive through the countryside that comes back to another train station - e.g. from Alnwick station, along the coast round round Bamburgh and back to Alnwick... from Aviemore down the Spey valley towards Keith and back again) - could be a way of encouraging tourists to penetrate places that trains can't serve but which would be a long way on a regular bus service from Newcastle to Bamburgh or Edinburgh/Glasgow to Keith

There used to be (may still be) some connecting buses to the DalesRail Sunday services that fitted this description, this was all very well coordinated. Hikers' buses are quite handy here, and I do wonder if again putting something like the Langdale Rambler into the railway timetable system and timing it to connect well at Windermere might bring in a bit of extra custom for day-trip hikers from central Lancashire and Manchester, it's just that bit less bitty without massively changing the service. (At last count the first and last Langdale Ramblers ran to/from Windermere, the rest terminate at Ambleside). Promoted well (and Northern aren't bad at this) this could work quite well - it's a day trip on a plate into excellent hiking territory (some of the best in the Lakes, it is certainly one of my favourite bits) from Manchester and central Lancashire, and you'd have to do very little to make it work. You can of course do it now, but you need a bit of background knowledge to know what connects where.