Oldest and newest fleets

[northwichcat]

Which operators have the oldest and newest fleets of trains?

By my recking it's Merseyrail with the oldest who's average is around 32 years old. On the other hand London Overground have the newest with an average of 5 years old and currently their average is couple of months less than TransPennine Express but the gap will increase significantly when the 172s come in to operation.

If Island Trains wasn't part of SWT then they would definetly have the oldest, but by being part of SWT 6 trains built in the late 1930s is more than averaged out by around 200 built in the last 10 years.

 

[scotsman]

TPE, the newest franchised TOC fleet.

or Heathrow Connect if you include open-access.

 

[emoaconr]

If FGW didn't have the 1990's 165/166s, then most of their stock is late 70's and 1980's. ATW the same with 175's.

Its interesting that Merseyrail has the oldest stock but has had the highest passenger ratings. However, they are refurbished to a high standard and indeed look a lot better cosmetically than 1980/90's stock on a lot of other TOC's.

 

[northwichcat]

TPE, the newest franchised TOC fleet.

or Heathrow Connect if you include open-access.

Are you taking the age of the oldest unit opposed to the average age? While the 360s are newer than TPE's 170s Heathrow Connect's fleet average age is 7-8 years.

London Overground and Merseyrail are franchised operators. However, the franchises are awarded by TfL and Merseytravel respectively opposed to DfT.

 

[scotsman]

Are you taking the age of the oldest unit opposed to the average age? While the 360s are newer than TPE's 170s Heathrow Connect's fleet average age is 7-8 years.

London Overground and Merseyrail are franchised operators. However, the franchises are awarded by TfL and Merseytravel respectively opposed to DfT.

Oops!

 

[northwichcat]

If FGW didn't have the 1990's 165/166s, then most of their stock is late 70's and 1980's. ATW the same with 175's.

There'll be a lot of IFs. NXEA's fleet is very similar to FGWs. If EMT didn't have the Meridans then they'd also have a pre-1990 fleet. Likewise if you take out the relatively small number of EMUs Northern have and ignore the 3 subleased 180s then they'd have a pre-1990 fleet.

Its interesting that Merseyrail has the oldest stock but has had the highest passenger ratings. However, they are refurbished to a high standard and indeed look a lot better cosmetically than 1980/90's stock on a lot of other TOC's.

It's partly down to frequency. Some small stations on the Wirral and in Sefton have a train every 15 minutes, making it an attractive option because if you miss one you don't have long to wait for the next one. The Mersey tunnel tolls also help putting people on to trains between Birkenhead and Liverpool instead of driving.

Merseyside, like other PTE areas also has combined bus and train tickets which other areas like Lancashire and Cheshire do not.

 

[sprinterguy]

Avergae age of the TPE fleet is 5.53 years, whilst the avergae age of the Heathrow Express fleet is 10 years, due to a large proportion of the fleet being comprised of the now 12 year old 332s.

By my reckoning, Merseyrail average fleet age is 31.55 years.

And for general interest, the average age of the Northern fleet is 20.5 years (22.8 years excluding EMUs), and Chiltern is 13.83 years.

 

[313103]

Hopefully by August London Overground will have an average age profile of trains of about 8 months.
The 313s and 150s are planned to be withdrawn by the end of this month, subject to traincrew being trained up on time.

 

[tbtc]

Whilst you expect the "average age" to get older each year (assuming no new trains), the ATW average age now is even older than when Arriva took over as the only additional trains they've got are the class 57s...

 

[HSTfan!!!]

Whilst you expect the "average age" to get older each year (assuming no new trains), the ATW average age now is even older than when Arriva took over as the only additional trains they've got are the class 57s...

didn't get the 175's til arriva took over did they?

 

[northwichcat]

didn't get the 175's til arriva took over did they?

The 175s have always been used on the North Wales Coast route since they came in to operation. First North Western ran Manchester/Crewe/Birmingham to Holyhead/Llandudno services using 175s. The North Wales Coast services were transferred to Wales and Borders about 6 months prior to the ATW franchise starting but the 175 diagrams remained exactly the same so they never ventured to Cardiff or South Wales. It was only after ATW took over that they could choose which routes they ran on and it was down to the Welsh Assembly that the other 175s were to be removed from North West routes and used on Welsh routes instead. I somehow doubt GMPTE and Merseytravel could say they want LM's 170s to go to Northern or EMT and to be just handed over with no questions asked. The 175s were originally ordered to replace the FNW 101s and class 31 hauled trains.
[

whilst the average age of the Heathrow Express fleet is 10 years, due to a large proportion of the fleet being comprised of the now 12 year old 332s.

Just to avoid any confusion with anyone who isn't familiar with Heathrow arrangements:

Heathrow Express is operated by BAA and not part of the National Rail network and they operate 14 class 332s and 1 class 360 with the class 360 being a shuttle service between Heathrow Central station and Heathrow Terminal 5 station.

Heathrow Connect is operated by FGW in conjuction with BAA, but is not under the FGW franchise and will in the future become part of Crossrail. The fleet is entirely 360s.

Incidentally 360s also serve Suvarnabhumi Airport in Bangkok.

 

[krus_aragon]

Whilst you expect the "average age" to get older each year (assuming no new trains), the ATW average age now is even older than when Arriva took over as the only additional trains they've got are the class 57s...

And the 121 bubble car!
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didn't get the 175's til arriva took over did they?

Arriva got them from FNW when their all-Wales franchise was drawn up, but several were sub-leased to TPE for a while.

 

[paulravuslante]

Heathrow Express is operated by BAA and not part of the National Rail network and they operate 14 class 332s and 1 class 360 with the class 360 being a shuttle service between Heathrow Central station and Heathrow Terminal 5 station.

Heathrow Connect is operated by FGW in conjuction with BAA, but is not under the FGW franchise and will in the future become part of Crossrail. The fleet is entirely 360s.

Heathrow Connect: Driven by and staffed by Heathrow Express staff and the 360 units are maintained by Siemens under contract to Heathrow Express. How exactly do FGW operate the service?

Also, the HEx liveried 360 provides the bulk of the services to Terminal 4 (not Terminal 5 as mentioned above).

 

[northwichcat]

Heathrow Connect: Driven by and staffed by Heathrow Express staff and the 360 units are maintained by Siemens under contract to Heathrow Express. How exactly do FGW operate the service?

I meant Heathrow Connect is a venture between FGW and BAA (Heathrow Express) not that FGW run the trains on behalf of BAA.

 

[EM2]

I don't have the figures but NXEA must be up there?

 

[northwichcat]

I don't have the figures but NXEA must be up there?

Any fleet containing mk3s is difficult to work out exactly due to them being built over 13 years. As an estimation NXEA would be behind Merseyrail, FGW, Northern, FCC, Wrexham & Shropshire and Grand Central due to them having some Turbostars and Desiros mixed in with the older units like the 315s and Sprinters.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I think Island Line wins the oldest fleet category.

 

[northwichcat]

I think Island Line wins the oldest fleet category.

Island Line is a small part of SWT so doesn't count by itself. If you count Island Line then you have to start including parts of other franchises such as the 3 parts of FGW and the 2 parts of Northern.

 

[RPM]

Chiltern is 13.83 years.

I came up with a figure of 16.40 for Chiltern. This includes the present bubble car plus the second one which is under conversion for passenger use. It also includes Aylesbury depot shunter "Lesley" plus the similar shunter that has just been delivered to Wembley depot.

 

[northwichcat]

Arriva got them from FNW when their all-Wales franchise was drawn up, but several were sub-leased to TPE for a while.

It wasn't exactly like that. They were built for the FNW North Wales Coast and North West express routes and based at FNW's Chester depot. In 2003 the North Wales Coast routes were transferred to Wales & Borders and the 175s had the names removed and were shared between Wales & Borders and FNW (a bit like the 350s between Silverlink and Central Trains.)

In Dec 2003 Arriva Trains Wales took over the Welsh franchise and the 175 lease but part of the agreement for that was for 175s to be shared with FNW for use on the North West routes. Two months later TPE took over the Windermere and Barrow routes, which were then operated by FNW on behalf of TPE until the new Northern franchise was drawn up and the Blackpool route was transferred to TPE, at which time the sub-leased 175s were all being used by TPE who had ordered 185s to replace them. Phew!

 

[sprinterguy]

I came up with a figure of 16.40 for Chiltern. This includes the present bubble car plus the second one which is under conversion for passenger use. It also includes Aylesbury depot shunter "Lesley" plus the similar shunter that has just been delivered to Wembley depot.

I only counted the current passenger carrying stock, consisting of one class 121, 39 class 165s and 19 clas 168s of varying vintages. I've worked out the averages per vehicle, which seems a more appropriate way to do it than by unit. If you do it by unit, then you do indeed get an average of 16.4 years. Oh and I did make a bit of a typo with the 5 168/0s (gave them an extra carriage they don't have, well it was Friday afternoon) which I've since rectified, so it's actually 14.5 years by my method, not 13.8.

I had a bit too much time on my hands at work on Friday afternoon, and have devised a sort of "league table" of the various TOC fleet ages, based on my calculations in the face of a lack of official data, although I have seen fleet age figures reported in the past.

I'd treat these figures as rough, and definitely not definitive, but they should act as a reasonable guide to the respective ages of the various fleets:

Youngest first:
1. First Transpennine
2. Virgin West Coast
3. Heathrow Express/Connect
4. Southern
5. London Midland (Even including the various Sprinter classes)
6. Crosscountry (Average age would be lower if the HSTs are excluded)
7. Southeastern
8. South West Trains
9. Chiltern
10. East Midlands Trains
11. Arriva Trains Wales (Average age is about one year lower if the "Gerald" stock is discounted)
12. First Capital Connect
13. Northern
14. East Coast
15. First Great Western
16. Merseyrail

Yes I know, not all the TOCs are there, I ran out of time for the others!

 

[ert47]

I only counted the current passenger carrying stock, consisting of one class 121, 39 class 165s and 19 clas 168s of varying vintages. I've worked out the averages per vehicle, which seems a more appropriate way to do it than by unit.

I had a bit too much time on my hands at work on Friday afternoon, and have devised a sort of "league table" of the various TOC fleet ages, based on my calculations in the face of a lack of official data, although I have seen fleet age figures reported in the past.

I'd treat these figures as rough, and definitely not definitive, but they should act as a reasonable guide to the respective ages of the various fleets:

Youngest first:
1. First Transpennine
2. Virgin Trains (ignoring "Pretendalino")
3. Heathrow Express/Connect
4. Southern
5. London Midland (Even including the various Sprinter classes)
6. Crosscountry (Average age would be lower if the HSTs are excluded)
7. Southeastern
8. South West Trains
9. Chiltern
10. East Midlands Trains
11. Arriva Trains Wales (Average age is about one year lower if the "Gerald" stock is discounted)
12. First Capital Connect
13. Northern
14. East Coast
15. First Great Western
16. Merseyrail

Yes I know, not all the TOCs are there, I ran out of time for the others!

Id move Southeastern above Southern as their oldest trains are the Networker Units (methinks - have all the 508's moved?) - and if thats not the case, the majority of their trains are younger than Southerns' simply because of the number of cl455's they have.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes I know, not all the TOCs are there, I ran out of time for the others!

Can't believe you missed out London Overground when they're one of the easiest to work out and have a younger fleet than TPE by my reckoning.

I'm also not sure that you should ignore the Pretendalino and include the WAG stock as that seems to be double standards.

 

[sprinterguy]

Id move Southeastern above Southern as their oldest trains are the Networker Units (methinks - have all the 508's moved?) - and if thats not the case, the majority of their trains are younger than Southerns' simply because of the number of cl455's they have.

Well if my rough and ready Excel spreadsheets are telling the truth, then Southeastern's fleet is indeed older than the Southern fleet. I can't quite understand it myself, but I've never known an Excel formula to lie before! The difference appears to be only months though. Bear in mind that Southeastern have a huge fleet of 465s from 1991 which increases the average, whilst Southern has a massive 377 fleet that is only 6 years old (Far more 377s than 455s). The numbers I've got are 11.72 years for Southern and 12.47 years for SE.

I'm also not sure that you should ignore the Pretendalino and include the WAG stock as that seems to be double standards.

Recalculating for the Pretendalino actually makes no difference to Virgin's position relative to the other TOCs (I just added it in): It adds 5 months onto the average age of the fleet.

Can't believe you missed out London Overground when they're one of the easiest to work out and have a younger fleet than TPE by my reckoning.

Yes, London Overground will shortly be the youngest by a long shot without any need for maths skills to work that out, not sure why I haven't put it on the list really.

 

[WatcherZero]

Would that Northern 20 years be including or excluding the 180's? not many but they are less than half the age of its other stock.
Also intersting if you compare diesel and electric fleets.

All Northerns diesel fleet are 20-29 years old, half their much smaller number of electrics are 21 years old and half 10.

 

[sprinterguy]

Would that Northern 20 years be including or excluding the 180's? not many but they are less than half the age of its other stock.
Also intersting if you compare diesel and electric fleets.

All Northerns diesel fleet are 20-29 years old, half their much smaller number of electrics are 21 years old and half 10.

Excluding the 180s. I'm not counting them as "permanent" members of the Northern fleet, rightly or wrongly.

Taking out Northerns' EMUs (321, 323 and 333) to just leave the diesel units increases Northerns average fleet age by 2 YEARS from 20.5 to 22.6 years as noted earlier. Even though the EMUs are only small fleets, they count for a bigger proportion of the total fleet in the number of vehicles, as the 321s and 333s are 4 car as opposed to the DMUs (except 158752-9) which are half that length (or quarter of it in the case of 153s).

 

[Failed Unit]

It is hard to think that all of the stock used on East Coast is now older than 20years! It is still the best in my opinion of any operator on the former Inter-City area.

Has Great Western got any post privatisation stock? If it has I suspect it is the only operator that this is the case for.

 

[sprinterguy]

It is hard to think that all of the stock used on East Coast is now older than 20years! It is still the best in my opinion of any operator on the former Inter-City area.

I agree completely, East Coasts' train fleet is superb.

Has Great Western got any post privatisation stock? If it has I suspect it is the only operator that this is the case for.

You know what, it doesn't look like it does. The 165 and 166 Turbos are the newest trains in it's fleet. Meaning that East Coast and FGW are the only operators to retain completely pre-privatisation train fleets.

 

[Crossover]

Well if my rough and ready Excel spreadsheets are telling the truth, then Southeastern's fleet is indeed older than the Southern fleet. I can't quite understand it myself, but I've never known an Excel formula to lie before!

Really...

http://www.appscout.com/2007/09/excel_cant_multiply.php


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Youngest first:
1. First Transpennine
2. Virgin West Coast
3. Heathrow Express/Connect
4. Southern
5. London Midland (Even including the various Sprinter classes)
6. Crosscountry (Average age would be lower if the HSTs are excluded)
7. Southeastern
8. South West Trains
9. Chiltern
10. East Midlands Trains
11. Arriva Trains Wales (Average age is about one year lower if the "Gerald" stock is discounted)
12. First Capital Connect
13. Northern
14. East Coast
15. First Great Western
16. Merseyrail

Another thought for VT aside from the Pretendalino, would the Thunderbirds make any difference or are they not counted as they aren't passenger trains (or are they not operated by VT directly)?

 

[tbtc]

Even though the EMUs are only small fleets, they count for a bigger proportion of the total fleet in the number of vehicles, as the 321s and 333s are 4 car as opposed to the DMUs (except 158752-9) which are half that length (or quarter of it in the case of 153s).

There are a few three car Pacers at Northern too - sorry to split hairs