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Does having separate brands for the Post Office and Royal Mail sense?

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telstarbox

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Is the UK unique in having separate brands for the Royal Mail (collecting and delivering the mail) and the Post Office (paying for and posting the mail, as well as the other stuff they do on the side)?

(And a related question - does it make sense to have two separate locations in one town for post-related activity?)
 
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Bletchleyite

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Is the UK unique in having separate brands for the Royal Mail (collecting and delivering the mail) and the Post Office (paying for and posting the mail, as well as the other stuff they do on the side)?

They're not only separate brands, but completely separate organisations! I'm less than convinced that this is sensible, but I believe it happened because the latter loses a fortune whereas the former was just about a profitable business to sell off.
 

SuspectUsual

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Is the UK unique in having separate brands for the Royal Mail (collecting and delivering the mail) and the Post Office (paying for and posting the mail, as well as the other stuff they do on the side)?

(And a related question - does it make sense to have two separate locations in one town for post-related activity?)

First question - I don’t think it does make sense

Second question - yes, because generally speaking the post office is ideally in the town centre and the sorting/delivery office needs more space so is better suited to a location away from the more expensive town centre
 

Bletchleyite

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Sorting offices sometimes are reasonably central, e.g. Lancaster. I suspect this is mostly in places with lowish land values (as indeed Lancaster has, it's a very cheap place to buy housing indeed given how nice it is), as otherwise it'd make more sense to flog off for flats and move to a cheaper business park.
 

Hadders

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You want Post Offices to be in residential areas, city and centres, i.e. where people who want to post things are likely to be.

You want sorting offices to be located near to major road networks. This won't necessarily be where post offices are.
 

telstarbox

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I'm not completely convinced by that because isn't most of the post collected and distributed after the evening rush hour and overnight when roads are less congested?
 

edwin_m

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Many sorting offices were close to main railway stations, for obvious reasons that no longer apply.
 

telstarbox

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True, I remember the dedicated siding in Tonbridge which wasn't used for long.

Can anyone summarise the current operations of the class 325 fleet?
 

Hadders

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I'm not completely convinced by that because isn't most of the post collected and distributed after the evening rush hour and overnight when roads are less congested?

Imagine the noise issues if large sorting offices were in residential areas or city centres.

Sorting hubs are best in large warehouses able to accommodate large vehicles 24/7 without restrictions etc. Town centres don't fit this model.
 

cactustwirly

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Imagine the noise issues if large sorting offices were in residential areas or city centres.

Sorting hubs are best in large warehouses able to accommodate large vehicles 24/7 without restrictions etc. Town centres don't fit this model.

Royal Mail have been consolidating everything to larger out of town mail centres.
They closed the one in Reading about 10 years ago, and now everything goes through Swindon.
 

Tom B

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Crown Post Offices are closing at an alarming rate; in North London we've lost Archway, Kentish Town, Crouch End, Muswell Hill, North Finchley, and probably others I haven't noticed. In their place, if anything, there is a sub post office which contains rubbish staff without the same knowledge or care.
 

Vespa

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They were separated to spread the risk and somehow they believed it generates compitition which translate into more profit and efficiency, didn't quite work out like that, they also split off Parcels and turned into Parcelforce, now most of the Parcelforce workers are self employed contractors on piece work.

Royal mail collects from firms and offices not just Post Offices which makes up a small proportion of the overall collection, bulk mailing is where RM makes its money and letter boxes is a fraction of that.
RM process and distribute them for delivery.

Post Offices network is getting smaller and the recent Horizon scandal where Postmasters were wrongfully convicted of theft and false accounting because the Horizon software is full of bugs creating double entries and false entries. Recent court victories have vindicated the Postmasters.

I think the root cause of the problem of the entire postal network is applying market principles to what was a cohesive social network that is greater than the sum of its parts, loss of monopoly will in time threaten the network especially to remote areas as RM needs volume to sustain it, large urban centres subsided the countryside.

It was also considered a job for life if you worked for them, the certainty meant you would be more confident in taking long term financial commitment benefitting the general economy, pay was initially rubbish but overtime made up for it and the promise of a final salary pension more than made up for it.

All that has changed since privatisation.

So in short separating all these once cohesive cooperative cross subsidising services didn't make sense at all.

The consultants made a lot of money out of it.
 

johntea

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Crown Post Offices are closing at an alarming rate; in North London we've lost Archway, Kentish Town, Crouch End, Muswell Hill, North Finchley, and probably others I haven't noticed. In their place, if anything, there is a sub post office which contains rubbish staff without the same knowledge or care.

They seem very keen on trying to shove them all into WHSmith now

What I've never understood is they are still pretty much unbeatable in terms of sticking a stamp on a letter and getting it to anywhere in the UK within a few days but parcel wise it is now usually cheaper to go via a courier many of which have set up access points at local corner shops so I don't even have to walk all the way into town and queue up at the Post Office - apparently Royal Mail were on about introducing 'parcel boxes' at one point but I'm yet to see any of those in my local area...
 

tom1649

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Are we the only country apart from Germany (DHL Deutsche Post) to have a privatised postal service?
 

SuspectUsual

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Royal mail collects from firms and offices not just Post Offices which makes up a small proportion of the overall collection, bulk mailing is where RM makes its money and letter boxes is a fraction of that

And since privatisation other companies have hoovered up quite a lot of the bulk mailing work leaving Royal Mail with a disproportionately large share of the expensive to perform individual letter work


They seem very keen on trying to shove them all into WHSmith now

Or looking at that another way, Smiths have seized on having a post office as a footfall driver into their otherwise pointless high street shops
 

Hadders

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They were separated to spread the risk and somehow they believed it generates compitition which translate into more profit and efficiency, didn't quite work out like that, they also split off Parcels and turned into Parcelforce, now most of the Parcelforce workers are self employed contractors on piece work.

Royal mail collects from firms and offices not just Post Offices which makes up a small proportion of the overall collection, bulk mailing is where RM makes its money and letter boxes is a fraction of that.
RM process and distribute them for delivery.

Post Offices network is getting smaller and the recent Horizon scandal where Postmasters were wrongfully convicted of theft and false accounting because the Horizon software is full of bugs creating double entries and false entries. Recent court victories have vindicated the Postmasters.

I think the root cause of the problem of the entire postal network is applying market principles to what was a cohesive social network that is greater than the sum of its parts, loss of monopoly will in time threaten the network especially to remote areas as RM needs volume to sustain it, large urban centres subsided the countryside.

It was also considered a job for life if you worked for them, the certainty meant you would be more confident in taking long term financial commitment benefitting the general economy, pay was initially rubbish but overtime made up for it and the promise of a final salary pension more than made up for it.

All that has changed since privatisation.

So in short separating all these once cohesive cooperative cross subsidising services didn't make sense at all.

The consultants made a lot of money out of it.

Bear in mind the world has moved on greatly. Far fewer letters sent than previously - my bills, statements etc are now done online, used to all be physical post. Working in a field based role it was not unusual to arrive home to a hallway full of post - all done far more efficiently online now. Used to go to the post office to pay bills, renew car tax etc, now done online or via direct debit. Pensions and benefits used to be paid over the counter in cash (a huge safety risk but I digress) now paid directly into bank accounts. I could go on but leaving things as they were was completely unsustainable.

Ebay, Amazon has resulted in more parcels being sent. Done right Post Office and Royal Mail should benefit from this.
 

JamesT

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Are we the only country apart from Germany (DHL Deutsche Post) to have a privatised postal service?

Belgium, Austria, Portugal, Netherlands, Japan all appear to have at least partly privatised their postal services from a very quick search.
 

nlogax

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Is the UK unique in having separate brands for the Royal Mail (collecting and delivering the mail) and the Post Office (paying for and posting the mail, as well as the other stuff they do on the side)?

(And a related question - does it make sense to have two separate locations in one town for post-related activity?)

It makes perfect sense to me. Post Offices provide a consumer end point to Royal Mail services, but Royal Mail services encompass more than the routing and delivery of domestic mail.

Maybe we should rebrand Royal Mail.. :p
 
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Tetchytyke

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I believe the idea was to have Post Office as a commercial front of the postal service and Royal Mail to be the infrastructure behind it. A similar thing happens with other privatisations, such as BT and Openreach and the electricity and gas carrier networks.

Remember that Post Office aren't the only ones to use Royal Mail to deliver post, other commercial postal services also use Royal Mail for the 'last mile' delivery.

A comparison into the costs of sending a standard size and low weight letter by both and first and second class mail over the last twenty years does seem to have outstripped the normal inflation costs over that same time period by quite a margin.

Inevitable, really. As mail volumes decline, the overheads of mail delivery have to be spread across fewer items. Factor in competition from other suppliers for commercial bulk postal services, and it's no wonder prices go up.

Doorstep delivery is expensive, especially in outlying areas. There's a reason couriers charge a premium for delivery to the islands and Highlands.
 

Butts

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My Son works for Royal Mail and from his anecdotal evidence the "Spanish Customs" have not disappeared with Privatisation. Indeed if anything they seem to have increased.

Think getting paid for you whole shift when going home early, or conversely claiming dubious amounts of overtime when going slightly over your hours.

Apparently there are so many different pay codes and allowances not even the employees can understand their payslips.

Talking of pay which other organisation the size of Royal Mail still pays employees weekly? - great for the staff but not so good for costs.


Each Depot seems to be run on a "Dead Mans Shoes" basis last seen in the 1970's in most other sectors. Hierarchy depends of length of Service regardless of ability. The time served staff get all the cushiest jobs.

Despite all this he still loves it !!!
 

Bletchleyite

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Are we the only country apart from Germany (DHL Deutsche Post) to have a privatised postal service?

I didn't know it was fully privatised, I thought it was like DB AG, i.e. an arms-length business (which many Germans refer to as privatised, but it's not by a UK understanding of the word - Deutsche Bahn AG is related similarly to the German Government as Network Rail is to ours). You learn something new every day!

The Dutch postal service appears to be privatised if Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostNL) is anything to go by. It's gone by the names TPG Post and TNT Post in recent years.
 

cactustwirly

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I didn't know it was fully privatised, I thought it was like DB AG, i.e. an arms-length business (which many Germans refer to as privatised, but it's not by a UK understanding of the word - Deutsche Bahn AG is related similarly to the German Government as Network Rail is to ours). You learn something new every day!

The Dutch postal service appears to be privatised if Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostNL) is anything to go by. It's gone by the names TPG Post and TNT Post in recent years.

TNT is owned by Fedex, and is in the process of being rebranded as such.
 
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