Crossrail beyond Abbey Wood

[4-SUB 4732]

Split away from another thread.

Should it be extended? What infrastructure is needed? What would be left for the legacy South Eastern Route? Where should Crossrail’s extension go?

 

[NorthKent1989]

I’d like to see CrossRail extended, to be honest I don’t know why they’ve done what they’ve done with the Abbey Wood branch it’s a weird terminus.

But given there are other projects that are to be built in London; Bakerloo extension in 2029-2031, CrossRail 2 in the mid 2030s, I’m guessing the Gravesend/Ebbsfleet extension won’t happen until the early 2040s at the earliest, that’s still twenty years away.

Personally for any CrossRail extension I’d extend it all the way down to Medway, and the South Eastern services from the Dartford lines will continue down to Maidstone West.

 

[PolyDriver]

Skewing the line somehow after Swanscombe to provide for an interchange with Ebbsfleet would be welcome.

 

[swt_passenger]

I’d like to see CrossRail extended, to be honest I don’t know why they’ve done what they’ve done with the Abbey Wood branch it’s a weird terminus...

They modified the track layout specifically to help with access to Plumstead stabling, and also to allow for the safeguarded extension. The original design had Crossrail between the Southeastern tracks, and that wasn’t helpful to an independently operated extension.

 

[NorthKent1989]

They modified the track layout specifically to help with access to Plumstead stabling, and also to allow for the safeguarded extension. The original design had Crossrail between the Southeastern tracks, and that wasn’t helpful to an independently operated extension.

Thanks for the explanation

 

[hkstudent]

I’d like to see CrossRail extended, to be honest I don’t know why they’ve done what they’ve done with the Abbey Wood branch it’s a weird terminus.

But given there are other projects that are to be built in London; Bakerloo extension in 2029-2031, CrossRail 2 in the mid 2030s, I’m guessing the Gravesend/Ebbsfleet extension won’t happen until the early 2040s at the earliest, that’s still twenty years away.

Personally for any CrossRail extension I’d extend it all the way down to Medway, and the South Eastern services from the Dartford lines will continue down to Maidstone West.

For extension to Medway towns, it would very likely be shared track operation, and only be running 4 trains per hour at most I think (by taking away the current Thameslink to Rainham service)

And, if you extend the Crossrail to Ebbsfleet with 2 tracks only, there will be no room for Southeastern to run between Dartford and Strood. I think 2 track operation between Dartford and Northfleet / Ebbsfleet would be very likely as the government wishes to use a low cost option, as announced in the Spring Budget.

Worst scenario would be, Crossrail taking over North Kent Line beyond Abbey Wood to Ebbsfleet, while other line (Bexleyheath, Sidcup lines) trains will terminate at Dartford.

 

[Meerkat]

If the crayons are set free then it should run through Dartford, tunnel through to Bluewater, then continue to Ebbsfleet.
If the current Abbey Wood layout is best does that mean its only getting extended via quadrupling?

 

[ComUtoR]

If the crayons are set free then it should run through Dartford, tunnel through to Bluewater, then continue to Ebbsfleet.

Then across the water to Tilbury, Thurrock and then towards Romford. Creating a huge Crossrail loop line. Reducing the pressure on the Dartford Tunnel further, linking Thurrock and Bluewater and a potential link/options towards Stanstead Airport

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Then across the water to Tilbury, Thurrock and then towards Romford. Creating a huge Crossrail loop line. Reducing the pressure on the Dartford Tunnel further, linking Thurrock and Bluewater and a potential link/options towards Stanstead Airport

whatever you’re on, I’d like some.

 

[ComUtoR]

Any extension doesn't need to extend into that part of Kent. There is already an option for HS1. We also have to move away from continually modeling the railway as an London<>Country model. All that is doing is pushing more and more people to commute into town. We need to promote local transport links and push people and business out of the city where there is cheaper rents and a huge employment pool.

Ebbsfleet is a natural point to terminate the service to link Kent.

Dartford needs a link to Bluewater for local traffic reduction and to allow more people to access the area. There is going to be a lot of development with the building of Ebsfleet Garden City and the redevelopment of the A2 in that area. There is a massive chalk pit the other side of Bluewater with plenty of scope for development. A big problem, of course, is linking Dartford to Bluewater. There just isn't the space to do it. Linking Dartford to Ebbsfleet would be incredible. Typically I take the car as the alternative is Ebbsfleet > Gravesend and change there.

Linking Ebbsfleet to Tilbury isn't a major issue. There is already a junction at Northfleet which loops towards the Thames and just a nip over the water you already have rail infrastructure. There would be an option to swing up the coast side towards Stanstead but you could loop it back towards Romford, Again there is already a rail network that could be utilised and linking it back to Crossrail helps join the network better. Heading back to Romford via Thurrock again, helps reduce traffic and links more leisure travel.

After visiting many consultations about the lower Thames crossing, I have learned that many Dartford locals work just the other side of the river and they really hate going through the tunnel. Pushing them onto the train at Dartford or via Ebbfleet with their ample parking would be well received.

It is a little out there I'd agree

 

[ComUtoR]

If the crayons are set free then it should run through Dartford, tunnel through to Bluewater, then continue to Ebbsfleet.

The crayons have indeed been set free \o/

The ambitious tram plans set to alleviate heavy Dartford Crossing traffic jams

The proposal is still in its planning stages - but it hopes to cut emissions from drivers travelling back and forth over the River Thames

www.kentlive.news

KenEx Tram | Initial Link Proposal | North Kent | South Essex

KenEx Route proposals linking Dartford, Gravesend & Grays with efficient and sustainable transport between key areas of employment, housing & recreation.

kenextransit.co.uk

A Thames Gateway project linking ...

Then across the water to Tilbury, Thurrock and then towards Romford. Creating a huge Crossrail loop line. Reducing the pressure on the Dartford Tunnel further, linking Thurrock and Bluewater and a potential link/options towards Stanstead Airport

Do I win a prize?

whatever you’re on, I’d like some.

I think Kenex are smoking the same stuff™

As its a Tram system I would assume that you could link Dartford Town centre using the existing FastTrack bus route and converting that to a Tram route.

 

[whoosh]

Interesting that Disney is going to build their UK theme park near to Swanscombe. Could this be the counter-peak flow to make a Crossrail extension viable? Along with speeding up other trains that would no longer have to call at all stations?

 

[London Trains]

I'd extend it to Gravesend, taking over the line from Abbey Wood to Slade Green (calls at Belvedere, Erith and Slade Green), then entering a tunnel, calling at Dartford beneath the current station, then branching away from the current line, calling at Stone (close Stone Crossing), Bluewater, then rise to the surface and call at Ebbsfleet Valley (Swanscombe would close, this station serves the other side of Swanscombe) and Ebbsfleet International (platforms perpendicular to the main platforms, they would go through car parks A and B, Northfleet station would close, a walkway from the station to Disneyland (when it opens) will be provided), then it would run to Gravesend, where the station buildings on the south side of the station will be demolished for an extra terminating platform so there are 2 terminating platforms. All services would run all the way through to Gravesend.

Services on the North Kent Line would all terminate at Abbey Wood with the Thameslink service scrapped and changed to Luton to Sevenoaks (bin off Welwyn peak services). Additionally all services on the North Kent Line would stop everywhere now.

Services on the Bexleyheath and Sidcup lines which used to be rounders can terminate at Dartford with the extra capacity. I would propose 2 platforms at Dartford being for terminating services and 2 for through trains.

 

[mr_jrt]

Personally, I always thought having the Bakerloo extension take over the Bexleyheath line and then dive back in tunnel to serve Bluewater makes more sense than Crossrail due to the required tunnels and expected demand being smaller, so far easier to tunnel.

Any Crossrail extension probably just needs to stay on the surface through Dartford en-route to Gravesend or similar. Presumably the existing SE services would then become semi-fast, with Crossrail providing the stopping service?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The crayons have indeed been set free \o/

The ambitious tram plans set to alleviate heavy Dartford Crossing traffic jams

The proposal is still in its planning stages - but it hopes to cut emissions from drivers travelling back and forth over the River Thames

www.kentlive.news

KenEx Tram | Initial Link Proposal | North Kent | South Essex

KenEx Route proposals linking Dartford, Gravesend & Grays with efficient and sustainable transport between key areas of employment, housing & recreation.

kenextransit.co.uk

A Thames Gateway project linking ...




Do I win a prize?




I think Kenex are smoking the same stuff™

As its a Tram system I would assume that you could link Dartford Town centre using the existing FastTrack bus route and converting that to a Tram route.

Good Lord almighty.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I'd extend it to Gravesend, taking over the line from Abbey Wood to Slade Green (calls at Belvedere, Erith and Slade Green), then entering a tunnel, calling at Dartford beneath the current station, then branching away from the current line, calling at Stone (close Stone Crossing), Bluewater, then rise to the surface and call at Ebbsfleet Valley (Swanscombe would close, this station serves the other side of Swanscombe) and Ebbsfleet International (platforms perpendicular to the main platforms, they would go through car parks A and B, Northfleet station would close, a walkway from the station to Disneyland (when it opens) will be provided), then it would run to Gravesend, where the station buildings on the south side of the station will be demolished for an extra terminating platform so there are 2 terminating platforms. All services would run all the way through to Gravesend.

Services on the North Kent Line would all terminate at Abbey Wood with the Thameslink service scrapped and changed to Luton to Sevenoaks (bin off Welwyn peak services). Additionally all services on the North Kent Line would stop everywhere now.

Services on the Bexleyheath and Sidcup lines which used to be rounders can terminate at Dartford with the extra capacity. I would propose 2 platforms at Dartford being for terminating services and 2 for through trains.

What on earth.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Personally, I always thought having the Bakerloo extension take over the Bexleyheath line and then dive back in tunnel to serve Bluewater makes more sense than Crossrail due to the required tunnels and expected demand being smaller, so far easier to tunnel.

Any Crossrail extension probably just needs to stay on the surface through Dartford en-route to Gravesend or similar. Presumably the existing SE services would then become semi-fast, with Crossrail providing the stopping service?

Bakerloo Line via Bexleyheath? No thanks...

 

[Weekender]

As i understand it, it’s Paramount Studios that have plans for a large theme park with hotels etc. They originally announced it about 5 years ago, it all went quiet for a long while but the plans were reignited last year.

 

[mr_jrt]

Bakerloo Line via Bexleyheath? No thanks...

Fair enough, why's that? Simplifying the rail network would seem to be desirable, and as it's a local metro route having a tube service doesn't seem unreasonable. You would still be able to change at Lewisham and Dartford to South eastern services, it would give the Bakerloo extension access to a depot at Slade Green, and as mentioned, it would make tunnels through to Bluewater easier and cheaper as they'd be smaller. Being segregated from the NR routes probably also means frequency would be able to go up.

 

[London Trains]

What on earth.

What's wrong with it?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Fair enough, why's that? Simplifying the rail network would seem to be desirable, and as it's a local metro route having a tube service doesn't seem unreasonable. You would still be able to change at Lewisham and Dartford to South eastern services, it would give the Bakerloo extension access to a depot at Slade Green, and as mentioned, it would make tunnels through to Bluewater easier and cheaper as they'd be smaller. Being segregated from the NR routes probably also means frequency would be able to go up.

It comes out of the tunnel already pointing to Hayes. Indeed, Hayes is a bit of an island and it widens the sphere of influence of the extension to include a lot of Bromley. Consider: at the moment when you go to Kent House you can go to the City (Blackfriars) and West End (Victoria) at peak, whilst the Bakerloo line would also add a significant extra set of all-day connections too.

Hayes and Beckenham Junction are a sensible place to go. It is a line with no train crew or rolling stock depot. Using the Bexleyheath line adds significant complications - it adds a London Underground line into the mix at Slade Green / Dartford, the train crew are split etc.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

What's wrong with it?

Vast unnecessary expense such as tunnelling Dartford and running lord knows how many trains an hour to Gravesend which will all be carrying fresh air.

 

[London Trains]

Vast unnecessary expense such as tunnelling Dartford and running lord knows how many trains an hour to Gravesend which will all be carrying fresh air.

I doubt they'd be carrying fresh air. The line would provide 2 large commuter towns with fast services to Canary Wharf, the City, and Oxford Street. A direct train would be much better than a change at Abbey Wood / Lewisham / London Bridge. I understand Cannon Street is in the City but Crossrail will be much faster. I suspect passengers from the Medway Valley may also change onto Crossrail to access areas of London served by Crossrail, not near St Pancras.

Bluewater and Disneyland (when built) will also provide the line with a lot of traffic, and most of this will be the opposite direction to peak flows so would fill trains that actually would be empty anyway.

I suspect if Disneyland is built, a fair number of hotels would open near Ebbsfleet station. A direct train from Heathrow to Ebbsfleet would then be very useful for tonnes of tourists visiting Disneyland. Short tourist hops between Ebbsfleet and Bluewater may also be popular, similar to people visiting Disneyland Paris going to the nearby shopping centres.

I believe an extension like that would be a massive success, especially if it is open when Disneyland opens.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I doubt they'd be carrying fresh air. The line would provide 2 large commuter towns with fast services to Canary Wharf, the City, and Oxford Street. A direct train would be much better than a change at Abbey Wood / Lewisham / London Bridge. I understand Cannon Street is in the City but Crossrail will be much faster. I suspect passengers from the Medway Valley may also change onto Crossrail to access areas of London served by Crossrail, not near St Pancras.

Bluewater and Disneyland (when built) will also provide the line with a lot of traffic, and most of this will be the opposite direction to peak flows so would fill trains that actually would be empty anyway.

I suspect if Disneyland is built, a fair number of hotels would open near Ebbsfleet station. A direct train from Heathrow to Ebbsfleet would then be very useful for tonnes of tourists visiting Disneyland. Short tourist hops between Ebbsfleet and Bluewater may also be popular, similar to people visiting Disneyland Paris going to the nearby shopping centres.

I believe an extension like that would be a massive success, especially if it is open when Disneyland opens.

Agree to disagree.

 

[mr_jrt]

It comes out of the tunnel already pointing to Hayes. Indeed, Hayes is a bit of an island and it widens the sphere of influence of the extension to include a lot of Bromley. Consider: at the moment when you go to Kent House you can go to the City (Blackfriars) and West End (Victoria) at peak, whilst the Bakerloo line would also add a significant extra set of all-day connections too.

Hayes and Beckenham Junction are a sensible place to go. It is a line with no train crew or rolling stock depot. Using the Bexleyheath line adds significant complications - it adds a London Underground line into the mix at Slade Green / Dartford, the train crew are split etc.

TBF, it doesn't come out of any tunnel yet! Personally I think Hayes is a bit of a waste, TBH. No problem having it as a branch as Bexleyheath certainly wouldn't need the full Lewisham Bakerloo service, but then neither does Hayes, by any stretch.

You seem to be suggesting not having a depot is a positive....? any Bakerloo extension is going to need to stable the additional trains somewhere and provide depot facilities. If anything, Hayes not having them counts against it, IMHO. As for Slade Green to Dartford, I kinda envisioned the eastern end being segregated with a tube tunnel starting west of Slade Green and running to Bluewater via Dartford, with Crossrail (bringing back on topic!) having its extension on the surface all the way from Abbey Wood to Dartford. No-one in their right mind would ride the Bakerloo the whole way into zone 1, but by creating lots of short local links between NR interchanges it's far cheaper to link them all up with a little tube line than a full-on tunneled Crossrail extension, IMHO, and simplifying the NR network means you can increase frequencies there.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Hayes isn't a waste at all. If we're honest, if a few more fast trains stop at Beckenham Jn it would create excellent links which realistically don't exist from the legacy 'Chatham' and 'South Eastern' sides.

Indeed, looking at the line from Lewisham to Hayes and Beckenham Junction, there's massive development land available, links at Catford to relieve Thameslink, changing passenger habits around Kent House and Beckenham and then on then links to the Tramlink.

Personally, I'd also say banging in loads of car parking at Hayes and West Wickham would mean new houses being built near Keston, Farnborough, Addington and even out to Westerham would see this as their primary link.

 

[JonathanH]

Hayes isn't a waste at all. If we're honest, if a few more fast trains stop at Beckenham Jn it would create excellent links which realistically don't exist from the legacy 'Chatham' and 'South Eastern' sides.

Indeed, looking at the line from Lewisham to Hayes and Beckenham Junction, there's massive development land available, links at Catford to relieve Thameslink, changing passenger habits around Kent House and Beckenham and then on then links to the Tramlink.

Personally, I'd also say banging in loads of car parking at Hayes and West Wickham would mean new houses being built near Keston, Farnborough, Addington and even out to Westerham would see this as their primary link.

Are you advocating housing development on greenfield sites?

 

[hkstudent]

The crayons have indeed been set free \o/

The ambitious tram plans set to alleviate heavy Dartford Crossing traffic jams

The proposal is still in its planning stages - but it hopes to cut emissions from drivers travelling back and forth over the River Thames

www.kentlive.news

KenEx Tram | Initial Link Proposal | North Kent | South Essex

KenEx Route proposals linking Dartford, Gravesend & Grays with efficient and sustainable transport between key areas of employment, housing & recreation.

kenextransit.co.uk

A Thames Gateway project linking ...




Do I win a prize?




I think Kenex are smoking the same stuff™

As its a Tram system I would assume that you could link Dartford Town centre using the existing FastTrack bus route and converting that to a Tram route.

Kent County Council has talked about the tram system for decades already.
What I am concerned is that, whether the central government would be willing to fund the project as they are going to push forward the Lower Thames Crossing project anyway.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Are you advocating housing development on greenfield sites?

Well I don’t explicitly mean greenfield but the reality is that land will be developed and we don’t necessarily want to force everyone to live in flats on brownfield in existing suburbs...

 

[telstarbox]

It's either Metropolitan Green Belt or an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty around there. Also quite hilly.