Face coverings compulsory on public transport in England from 15 June

[GoneSouth]

Noticed a lot online saying you must wear face coverings in stations as well as on trains. Aside from TfL, have any of them actually changed their byelaws or are they making stuff up again?

Bloody hope you don’t have to, given the length of time I’ve waited around for XC at stations in the past !

 

[route101]

Noticed in Glasgow Central , they play automated announcements saying you must wear a face covering . Using the same recordings for NR stations.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Noticed a lot online saying you must wear face coverings in stations as well as on trains. Aside from TfL, have any of them actually changed their byelaws or are they making stuff up again?

Making stuff up, I reckon. Yesterday at Leeds a member of gateline staff insisted I had to wear a mask on the long walk to platform 17. When I said I thought the rule only applied on trains he said the guidance had changed that lunchtime and they'd only just found out themselves.

I checked later if that was true. It wasn't.

 

[island]

Noticed a lot online saying you must wear face coverings in stations as well as on trains. Aside from TfL, have any of them actually changed their byelaws or are they making stuff up again?

It’s not a requirement under Sunday’s regulations, but I guess an authorised person giving an instruction Could apply on NR as well as the byelaw is much the same.

 

[Mintona]

I’ve spent part of today chatting with one of the scientists working for PHE leading a team researching this virus. They don’t wear masks at work, because they don’t achieve anything. He said he won’t be catching a train until this rule is removed, and believes the main reason for it is to keep people away from catching trains (and buses) rather than any actual virus protection. He also said that if they worked, it would have been shown in all the hundreds of studies over the decades, rather than some quick studies done just before lock down eased so the governments can pretend there's a plan.

 

[Enthusiast]

Yes but the point is that you can actually take journeys on the railway or public transport if you don't have a car, and the journey you're taking is something that's allowed in the law.

And you can take a journey on the railway or public transport if you do have a car. Further, you can make virtually any journey you like in England now. You don't need any sort of reason and you can make your journey by whatever means you wish. There has never, at any time during this fiasco, been a ban on anybody using public transport of any type.

It’s not a requirement under Sunday’s regulations, but I guess an authorised person giving an instruction Could apply on NR as well as the byelaw is much the same.

The authorised person would have to have good reason to give such an instruction and it would have to be necessary and reasonable. The Secretary of State for Transport has introduced legislation (for England only) which requires face coverings to be worn only when boarding or whilst travelling in a public service vehicle. There's no requirement to wear them when on stations. An "authorised person" may have difficulty explaining why he or she believed such an instruction was necessary and reasonable when the Secretary of State did not. For the same reason I believe the TfL byelaw could be open to challenge. They might just be able to justify it on their enclosed Underground stations (though it's difficult to see the difference between that and, say, a shopping mall) but I can see no justification for it on their surface stations. In a document explaining the justification for the legislation there was this:

"When necessary to use public transport people may be more likely to be in enclosed spaces for longer periods of time where we know there is a greater risk of the spread of the virus and social distancing is likely to be difficult to follow consistently."

If National Rail can do without "gold plating" the legislation I cannot see why TfL has to do so.

 

[Jonny]

How selfish of you. Whether you like them or not, the rules are there. If you don't like them, then find another way to travel.

Public transport is the safest form in terms of collisions (or the lack thereof). Why should it be unnecessarily uncomfortable, especially if a mask (especially the improvised ones that are being encouraged) may pose risks related to other, potentially fatal, diseases?

PS Just wait until the vaccine push kicks off, probably in Setember. I look forward to deliberately travelling while unvaccinated (Edit: unvaccinated as in once a vaccine is available and I have decided not to take it, on the grounds that it is more likely to kill or seriously harm me than the disease).

 

[Jonny]

And another thought: One of the reasons that I am so willing to pay fares and use public transport when I could drive or cycle is that it reduces my exposure to the well-intentioned but oppressive Road Traffic Acts (especially if on a train). I see the same issue with this face covering theatre. And please don't get me going; just wait until the people whom DafT's pre-pandemic 'look up' campaign was aimed at start coming back to the railway.

 

[infobleep]

This is exactly what Enthusiast, among others, predicted several weeks ago. I wonder what happens if a "full" bus stops to let two people off but 20 people want to get on?

That's no different to a K3 bus letting one person off and not letting five people on, after a delay or a gap in the service due to previous bus cancellations.

It's only a single decker bus so if some are cancelled or delays occur you get a build up of people waiting to board it.

The bigger issue is those boarding when there is plenty of space but there won't be during the boarding process is everyone tried to board.

The bus stop outside Waitrose in Surbtion can hacw more people boarding than space on a bus. No idea what it's like right now but that is the type of stop where you might have more wishing to board than space exists. I think that a bigger issu if it is one.

 

[ashkeba]

The face covering must (cover their (nose and mouth)) and (attach behind the ears or tie behind their head). In other words, it must either attach behind the ears or tie behind the head. A “gas mask“ does neither of these things.

If you are advancing the bracketing (cover their (nose and mouth) and attach behind the ears) or tie behind their head) I do not think that is what is meant.

No, I agree with your first bracketing. I think a buff is acceptable because it is attached to the back of the head. I am not sure about a has mask. The ones that I have seen in museums attach around the back of the head but I am not sure what current designs do.

 

[ashkeba]

He also said that if they worked, it would have been shown in all the hundreds of studies over the decades, rather than some quick studies done just before lock down eased so the governments can pretend there's a plan.

Hadn't most of the previous studies looked at protection of the wearer rather than reduction in transmission range?

 

[BJames]

Saw this article which somewhat highlighted the hysteria that appears to have gripped parts of the country (as well as the fact that compliance is still nowhere near 100%: https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/key-worker-does-not-feel-4232034

A key worker in Nottingham has raised serious concerns for her safety as passengers on trams continue to avoid wearing face coverings despite new rules being issued by the Government.

From Monday, June 15, anyone travelling on trains, buses, planes or trams must wear a face covering to help prevent the spread of coronavirus.

While most passengers have donned a mask, some people in the city have been seen travelling without a face covering over the past two days.

Judith Greenwood, a supervisor at Mallard Jewellers in Exchange Walk, told Nottinghamshire Live she feels as though she is "risking my life" on public transport.

"We have put all these measures in place in the shop," the 54-year-old said.

"We are wearing gloves and masks, and every piece of jewellery people try on has to be cleaned with ammonia.

"We have two trays to do tomorrow. I got on the tram with my mask on and I sat on my seat. Three lads got on with no masks on or nothing, and we have spent thousands getting the shop ready.

"There is no policing for the trams. I spoke to NET and they said persistent offenders will be dealt with, but with a virus you cannot have persistent offenders because it only takes one time [to catch it].

(My bolding - I see the usual fear has taken hold)
Firstly, I don't think NET (Nottingham Express Transit) will really deal with "persistent offenders" because they can't even enforce the ticketing properly. Secondly it's an incredibly rare occasion when a police officer gets on one of the trams. I can't see this enforcement going to well there.

The article goes on to say this:

A student of three years, who asked to remain anonymous, also said it would make him feel "afraid" of travelling on public transport if people continued to flout the rules.

Obviously we don't know if this student is vulnerable but it worries me that students are concerned about travelling on public transport. There's going to be a whole lot of people suddenly taking up walking or cycling in September when everyone suddenly decides not to take the tram or bus to University, which is reopening to small group teaching and seminars at the very least.

From my own personal observations in North London, today (moreso than yesterday) people are taking to wearing the mask on their chin and only putting it up if staff or police say something. I think this highlights the unenforceability and impracticality of the rule.

 

[nlogax]

PS Just wait until the vaccine push kicks off, probably in Setember. I look forward to deliberately travelling while unvaccinated (Edit: unvaccinated as in once a vaccine is available and I have decided not to take it, on the grounds that it is more likely to kill or seriously harm me than the disease).

Sigh. Ok, I'll bite. Why do you think it's more likely to kill or harm you than the disease itself? Btw I wouldn't concern yourself with any vaccine push in September. Snowball's chance in hell of anything that's proven to work and approved and available for general usage before 2021 at the earliest.

I may ask the mods to re-open the vaccine thread tomorrow.

 

[Journeyman]

This is depressing. I knew this sort of paranoia would take hold. We'll be stuck with this nonsense for years.

 

[6Gman]

Hadn't most of the previous studies looked at protection of the wearer rather than reduction in transmission range?

A sensible point.

There's also a recent German study suggesting face masks are likely to reduce transmission.

I am in the low risk category, but am following all the advice (social distancing, avoiding crowds, face covering indoors etc) because people around me, and people around them, may well be high-risk.

The attitude of "I don't like doing this; I get no benefit; I'm going to ignore it if I can" profoundly depressing.

Just have some consideration for other people, and if something might help just do it.

 

[greatkingrat]

Since when has a supervisor at a jewelers been a "key worker"?

 

[Mintona]

This is depressing. I knew this sort of paranoia would take hold. We'll be stuck with this nonsense for years.

Yes. I wouldn’t be in the least surprised if these restrictions are still with us in 2022.

 

[Journeyman]

Since when has a supervisor at a jewelers been a "key worker"?

I thought that. Not that it makes any difference to the idiocy of her comments.

 

[Journeyman]

Yes. I wouldn’t be in the least surprised if these restrictions are still with us in 2022.

And the rest. This will last many years.

 

[BJames]

Yes. I wouldn’t be in the least surprised if these restrictions are still with us in 2022.

Let's hope for the sake of sanity that this doesn't come true.

I still hold the view though that despite the above article and people's paranoia, most people I speak to seem to think this will be resolved this year. I doubt very much people will still want to be restricted into next year, let alone 2022. The government will lose control even more than they already have if they try to keep the restrictions in place with everyone just ignoring them.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Yes. I wouldn’t be in the least surprised if these restrictions are still with us in 2022.

I highly doubt it. I don't know a single person who isn't firmly anti-mask, even if (like me) they believe masks make sense as a temporary measure. I can't see them lasting a week longer than they're necessary, and usage will drop quickly barring a fringe minority. There are all sorts of arguments against masks which will dominate as the virus declines - personal comfort, social contact, driver safety, and CCTV being the clearest ones.

With regards social distancing, that isn't going to stay around very long either. Not only are the economic consequences dire, but the damage done from lack of social interaction is huge. I suspect 1m will become the standard at some point in July, and the regulations will become "reasonable personal space" once cases drop significantly, almost certainly by the end of the year. Even things like dancing and contact sports will come in sooner than we think - remember that the social distancing "ultras" who believe they'll die as soon as they come within 1.99m of others don't usually socialise in that manner!

 

[Journeyman]

I highly doubt it. I don't know a single person who isn't firmly anti-mask, even if (like me) they believe masks make sense as a temporary measure. I can't see them lasting a week longer than they're necessary, and usage will drop quickly barring a fringe minority. There are all sorts of arguments against masks which will dominate as the virus declines - personal comfort, social contact, driver safety, and CCTV being the clearest ones.

With regards social distancing, that isn't going to stay around very long either. Not only are the economic consequences dire, but the damage done from lack of social interaction is huge. I suspect 1m will become the standard at some point in July, and the regulations will become "reasonable personal space" once cases drop significantly, almost certainly by the end of the year. Even things like dancing and contact sports will come in sooner than we think - remember that the social distancing "ultras" who believe they'll die as soon as they come within 1.99m of others don't usually socialise in that manner!

I hope you're right. It feels to me like this crap is going on forever, and it's having a truly ghastly effect on my mental health. I find all of the measures in place to be really profoundly depressing, and it's getting to the point where I'm struggling to motivate myself to go out.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Nothing to do with us. I'm still walking around the train answering questions, making sure the bogs haven't packed up, collecting statistics, telling pricks to behave and whatnot. It is the train operators who have conducted their risk assessments regarding cab based working. I'm bored to tears to be honest.

You need to have a word with your Scotrail colleagues - even on trains with 6 carriages and 6 passengers in total they are nowhere to be seen.

I also am bored to tears. The trains are quiet. There would be no issue even checking tickets as you wouldn't be near someone for more than a few seconds till you move down the carriage to check someone else. Even selling tickets doesn't take more than a minute or so.

But we are technically not even allowed out of our cabs to patrol the train.

Our instructions have basically been that you must remain in your cab or private area at all times, and operate the doors from there on traction which allows it. The only time you are allowed out of the cab is to operate the train doors - and you must return to your cab or private crew area straight after - or in an emergency like dealing with a pass comm that cannot wait till the next station. Even then we have been instructed that we must make PA announcements saying we will be leaving the cab and passing through the train and everyone on the train must move to other carriages or keep well clear of the affected area and we are not allowed into an area until it has been fully cleared of people.

We have been instructed not to carry out revenue or other in saloon duties.

All completely over the top of course.

Noticed a lot online saying you must wear face coverings in stations as well as on trains. Aside from TfL, have any of them actually changed their byelaws or are they making stuff up again?

Making stuff up, I reckon. Yesterday at Leeds a member of gateline staff insisted I had to wear a mask on the long walk to platform 17. When I said I thought the rule only applied on trains he said the guidance had changed that lunchtime and they'd only just found out themselves.

I checked later if that was true. It wasn't.

That is because most TOCS are saying people should wear masks on stations too and are telling staff that message:

We want people to wear face coverings from when they enter a station all the way through their journey, including exiting the station at the other end. If people are then moving onto the bus, tram or tube, they should avoid taking off their face covering while they interchange to avoid touching their face or mouth unnecessarily.

Q. Do people using the station who are not paying customers need to wear a face covering?
A. Yes. Given people will have to wear the face coverings on trains, we are asking everyone to wear one as they pass through our stations. However, it is only legally required on trains.

 

[Cantab26]

Don't forget to read the rule in the context of the byelaw:

i.e. I presume it would be for them to show that their notice complied with each of those requirements e.g. how some specific wrong type of fastening relates to safety on the relevant part of the railway.. This notice might be pushing that byelaw towards its limits.

It’s not a requirement under Sunday’s regulations, but I guess an authorised person giving an instruction Could apply on NR as well as the byelaw is much the same.

It is questionable whether TfL’s notices even come within the scope of the relevant Byelaws. They would be well-advised not to do anything so foolish as to attempt to prosecute on the basis of them.

 

[NorthOxonian]

That is because most TOCS are saying people should wear masks on stations too and are telling staff that message:

We want people to wear face coverings from when they enter a station all the way through their journey, including exiting the station at the other end. If people are then moving onto the bus, tram or tube, they should avoid taking off their face covering while they interchange to avoid touching their face or mouth unnecessarily.

I'm sorry, but that is lunacy. Maybe it would work in London where buses are very frequent, but if I'm transferring onto a bus service that is every 20 minutes or worse, I could be waiting quite a while. Another thread on here is exploring the difficulties of promoting train-bus interchange, and that's difficult enough already, but adding masks will make such journeys utterly unappealing.

Of course in practice such a restriction is unenforceable. I don't think anyone would begrudge me getting a few unrestricted breaths at the bus stop!

 

[johnnychips]

My friend, who is quite intelligent, said ‘you know when all these rules became unenforceable? It was Dominic Cummings. People thought he didn’t have to follow the rules and then instead of resigning it was justified by “using his common sense“ and doing what he thought was right.’ So now we just follow the rules if they make sense to us. Today I managed to forget I’d need a mask on the bus, took a t-shirt out instead, and boarded the X1 to Sheffield looking like Kenny from South Park. Of course I took it off when I got upstairs as I was the only passenger.

 

[Gadget88]

I suffer panic attacks and I worry if I travel I could be stopped or the embarrassment if being stopped possibly fined what advice can you give me? Bus companies have print off cards

https://www.firstgroup.com/uploads/node_images/face-covering-exemption-extra-help-travel-assistance-card-12-06-20.pdf

Why not rail companies?

 

[Journeyman]

I suffer panic attacks and I worry if I travel I could be stopped or the embarrassment if being stopped possibly fined what advice can you give me? Bus companies have print off cards

https://www.firstgroup.com/uploads/node_images/face-covering-exemption-extra-help-travel-assistance-card-12-06-20.pdf

Why not rail companies?

There's no reason you can't use that when travelling by train - I'd encourage you to do so.

I appreciate it's hard to deal with, and sadly you probably won't get much sympathy.

 

[Gadget88]

There's no reason you can't use that when travelling by train - I'd encourage you to do so.

I appreciate it's hard to deal with, and sadly you probably won't get much sympathy.

Cool yeah I was thinking of printing one off I should show train staff before boarding. Even though it says First..might be handy travelling by TP.

 

[Gadget88]

There's no reason you can't use that when travelling by train - I'd encourage you to do so.

I appreciate it's hard to deal with, and sadly you probably won't get much sympathy.

My worry is Eurostar who won’t offer any flex on face masks they have no exemptions . Will this change anytime soon? I have been fighting this for quite some time seemingly it’s French law but I challenged them if this includes Amsterdam but not sure as they say you need a mask in Holland too.