Should PRM 144012 remain in service?

[Prestige15]

What are your thoughts about the PRM 144012. Should it eventually be scrapped along with other pacers or kept in service, perhaps on branch lines that requires 1 train such as Cleethorpes - Barton line for example.

 

[BenW390Fan]

No reason for it to be scrapped in my eyes, fully accessible and better than some of the current stock Northern are using

 

[Helvellyn]

It will be scrapped because it is a Pacer even if it does have a compliant interior. Would 144012 be a better choice for a route such as the Marston Vale line in place of the 230s? (I know more would have to be converted)

 

[43096]

What are your thoughts about the PRM 144012. Should it eventually be scrapped along with other pacers or kept in service, perhaps on branch lines that requires 1 train such as Cleethorpes - Barton line for example.

Scrap it. Regardless of PRM - and you need to change the thread title as it’s the wrong unit - they are not fit for purpose any more. Second, micro-fleets are a pain for the train operator.

 

[A0]

It will be scrapped because it is a Pacer even if it does have a compliant interior. Would 144012 be a better choice for a route such as the Marston Vale line in place of the 230s? (I know more would have to be converted)

Probably not - the D trains actually are in better condition and have a more practical transmission - yes, they've had problems but then so has every new unit introduced on the British railway network. As I understand it the reason the Marston Vale line isn't currently running and is being covered with road transport isn't due to rolling stock failures, but instead due to Network Rail redeploying the staff onto other duties owing to Covid. And don't forget more D trains are en-route to TFW for the Borderlands route.

Keeping 1 pacer, albeit a DDA one, makes no sense - and trying to find it work will be more hassle than it's worth.

 

[neontrix]

Should be put in service on Thameslink. See how commuters in the south feel being treated like those in the north.

 

[py_megapixel]

This came up a while ago and the consensus was that despite being accessible, it is too knackered to stay in service.

It is a grotty unit with damp stains coming through the cracks in the shiny white ceiling, the windows leak, the new seats are rock-hard and last time I was on it the toilet was broke. It needs to do a farewell trip from Keighley to Rotherham.

Scrap it, as like all other Pacers it's utterly dreadful and should have been scrapped ten years ago.

As a one-off piece of scrapworthy junk it would fit in well

 

[NoMorePacers]

As someone who has managed to actually ride 144012 (and over a fair distance), I can say with confidence that it really shouldn't return to service.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Peak-time strengthening only. Better a 144 than a booked 2-car service.

 

[A0]

Should be put in service on Thameslink. See how commuters in the south feel being treated like those in the north.

And when said commuters in "the North" were getting new trains like Pacers, those travelling into Paddington and Marylebone were doing so on well worn 25 year old DMUs that went on to run for another 10 or so years beyond that.

More recently commuters on the GN mainline into Moorgate were travelling on some of the oldest stock on the network - a good 10 years older than the Pacers. And with much higher fares into the bargain.

And if you look at the Met - serving Amersham, Uxbridge and Watford, the S8 stock replaced the A60 stock which was over 50 years old. I don't think the North's ever seen 50 year old stock in regular use.

So let's stop drop this pretense that the North runs around with clapped out rolling stock whilst all the new shiny stuff ends up on the London commuter lines - because it's far from the truth.

 

[Peter C]

I don't know a lot about the ins-and-outs of a Pacer, but I assume that just keeping one would be harder in the long run than scrapping it? Unless parts from other stock, such as Class 150s, would work with a 144? Anyone who restores old things which require proprietary parts knows that it is very difficult to source said parts after they are no longer produced.
I believe this issue may have/is facing the Class 91s with LNER - the computer chips they use are old 1980s technology IIRC and to source the parts to replace them costs quite a bit! Having one unit which requires certain parts isn't worth it. You can bulk-order parts for lower costs, but that raises the risk of the unit going out of service before the entirety of the parts are used, and suddenly you have too many parts for a withdrawn unit!


-Peter

 

[pdeaves]

suddenly you have too many parts for a withdrawn unit!

That's an easy problem to solve. 'Just' make a new unit out of the spare bits!

 

[Peter C]

That's an easy problem to solve. 'Just' make a new unit out of the spare bits!

Haha! Yes - but then we'd have an issue when we build more and more - we could end up in the vicious cycle of endless Pacers...
Too far? I'll get my coat..

-Peter

 

[Jamesrob637]

And when said commuters in "the North" were getting new trains like Pacers, those travelling into Paddington and Marylebone were doing so on well worn 25 year old DMUs that went on to run for another 10 or so years beyond that.

More recently commuters on the GN mainline into Moorgate were travelling on some of the oldest stock on the network - a good 10 years older than the Pacers. And with much higher fares into the bargain.

And if you look at the Met - serving Amersham, Uxbridge and Watford, the S8 stock replaced the A60 stock which was over 50 years old. I don't think the North's ever seen 50 year old stock in regular use.

So let's stop drop this pretense that the North runs around with clapped out rolling stock whilst all the new shiny stuff ends up on the London commuter lines - because it's far from the truth.

The South West (Devon and Cornwall) fare worst for local trains - 166s go as far as Exeter on occasions but from there on it's 158s at newest! To be fair a few 158s have been cascaded West following introduction of the 387s within an hour of London which in turn "relegated" 165s to the Bristol area. Oh and Castle HSTs but you're only polishing a 40-year old design!

 

[pdeaves]

The South West (Devon and Cornwall) fare worst for local trains - 166s go as far as Exeter on occasions but from there on it's 158s at newest! To be fair a few 158s have been cascaded West following introduction of the 387s within an hour of London which in turn "relegated" 165s to the Bristol area. Oh and Castle HSTs but you're only polishing a 40-year old design!

Don't forget the 220s that go to Plymouth and the 802s that go to Penzance; they are a bit newer. However, yes, 'local' trains are older.

 

[HSTEd]

I could see it being used in some of the roles traditionally ascribed to bubble cars - but ultimately its probably only worth scrapping.

Would have been amusing to see some Pacers get the Scotrail bicycle-van treatment though!

 

[elbows47]

As someone who has managed to actually ride 144012 (and over a fair distance), I can say with confidence that it really shouldn't return to service.

Travelled on it last summer Leeds-Lancaster. It rode quite well on cwr as far as Settle Junction but from there to Carnforth it was lively to say the least on jointed track. The party of Japanese youngsters on it were killing themselves laughing at the bouncy ride. It seemed tidy enough inside to me.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Travelled on it last summer Leeds-Lancaster. It rode quite well on cwr as far as Settle Junction but from there to Carnforth it was lively to say the least on jointed track. The party of Japanese youngsters on it were killing themselves laughing at the bouncy ride. It seemed tidy enough inside to me.

I did a hop from Doncaster-Hull in December, and it bounced around quite a bit on the CWR (although the CWR on the main route out of Hull is bloody terrible). It didn't help matters there that there was a wheel flat clattering quite loudly on the journey, and the brake squeal on it when arriving into stations was probably the loudest I have ever heard from a train.

 

[geordieblue]

And when said commuters in "the North" were getting new trains like Pacers, those travelling into Paddington and Marylebone were doing so on well worn 25 year old DMUs that went on to run for another 10 or so years beyond that.

More recently commuters on the GN mainline into Moorgate were travelling on some of the oldest stock on the network - a good 10 years older than the Pacers. And with much higher fares into the bargain.

And if you look at the Met - serving Amersham, Uxbridge and Watford, the S8 stock replaced the A60 stock which was over 50 years old. I don't think the North's ever seen 50 year old stock in regular use.

So let's stop drop this pretense that the North runs around with clapped out rolling stock whilst all the new shiny stuff ends up on the London commuter lines - because it's far from the truth.

1. Let's not pretend that Pacers were ever glamorous rolling stock. They were clearly inferior to the Sprinters; they were the budget model, and based off a literal bus chassis. This is a unit that was scrapped by Iran - Iran - before we got rid of them. How many Pacers were deployed to the London region? 0. The Paddington stock may have been old, but if Pacers were such a good option, why weren't they used to replace the first generation DMUs?

2. Old units aren't necessarily better. The Sprinters came in at the same time as the Pacers and are still going strong. I'm sure the 313s weren't all that pleasant to ride on, but the Pacers were designed for 20 years of service. The 313s weren't. Thus, even if the 313s were built '10 years' before the first Pacers (they weren't, it was 4 years), the gap is irrelevant since the Pacers were already midway through the lifespan of standard Southern stock.

3. The North probably hasn't seen 50-year-old stock in regular use... but then again, I imagine that the steeper graded and non-electrified nature of most Northern lines take more of a toll on stock.

 

[A0]

1. Let's not pretend that Pacers were ever glamorous rolling stock. They were clearly inferior to the Sprinters; they were the budget model, and based off a literal bus chassis. This is a unit that was scrapped by Iran - Iran - before we got rid of them. How many Pacers were deployed to the London region? 0. The Paddington stock may have been old, but if Pacers were such a good option, why weren't they used to replace the first generation DMUs?

2. Old units aren't necessarily better. The Sprinters came in at the same time as the Pacers and are still going strong. I'm sure the 313s weren't all that pleasant to ride on, but the Pacers were designed for 20 years of service. The 313s weren't. Thus, even if the 313s were built '10 years' before the first Pacers (they weren't, it was 4 years), the gap is irrelevant since the Pacers were already midway through the lifespan of standard Southern stock.

3. The North probably hasn't seen 50-year-old stock in regular use... but then again, I imagine that the steeper graded and non-electrified nature of most Northern lines take more of a toll on stock.

Nor were any Sprinters delivered into the London area, until NSE took the excess class 158s in 1993 in an attempt to find something reliable for the Waterloo to Exeter line.

On point 3 - that's debateable. Stock which forms part of the London commuter services is probably more heavily utilised and covers greater mileage in less time than equivalent suburban stock in the north.

 

[theblackwatch]

144012 is not compliant...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/840148/Class_144e_2020_dispensation_letter.pdf

 

[Energy]

Just scrap it, it isn't worth a microfleet of 1 train which isn't even actually PRM compliant. With the North-South rolling stock age thing, new stock gets ordered all at roughly the same time, at the start of privatisation many turbostars, electrostars etc. got ordered to replace the old trains of that time while the sprinters were not that old, now it is Northern's England's turn for new stock as it's approaches the replacement age.

 

[geordieblue]

Nor were any Sprinters delivered into the London area, until NSE took the excess class 158s in 1993 in an attempt to find something reliable for the Waterloo to Exeter line.

On point 3 - that's debateable. Stock which forms part of the London commuter services is probably more heavily utilised and covers greater mileage in less time than equivalent suburban stock in the north.

Yep, Point 3 is probably impossible to prove; there's different challenges for both.

 

[NoMorePacers]

I'm at least fairly sure that there aren't any lines in the South of England that has a complete ban on loco-hauled trains apart from engineering trains (and even then require special dispensation to run), with the reason for the ban being given as track condition.

 

[HSTEd]

I'm at least fairly sure that there aren't any lines in the South of England that has a complete ban on loco-hauled trains apart from engineering trains (and even then require special dispensation to run), with the reason for the ban being given as track condition.

How many lines in the South of England even have loco hauled trains anyway?

 

[Clansman]

What's the justification for 144002 to remain in service? Why would any TOC take on a singular unit, train up all gaurds, drivers, and depot staff at multiple locations (or go through the operational inflexibility of limiting it to one depot's diagrams), for the sake of keeping that one unit in service that it doesn't need?

There's literally no justification for 144002 to remain in revenue earning service for any TOC. It's a logistical nightmare. Especially on the basis that it is simply PRM modified and already has another newer DMU to take its place.

I could see it being used in some of the roles traditionally ascribed to bubble cars - but ultimately its probably only worth scrapping.

Would have been amusing to see some Pacers get the Scotrail bicycle-van treatment though!

They can be the metal that's remoulded into the bike holders.

 

[A0]

How many lines in the South of England even have loco hauled trains anyway?

Exactly - not sure how it was relevant, but as it happens I can think of two lines in the South East where I believe loco hauled trains are banned except for engineering services - Drayton Park to Moorgate and Kentish Town to Blackfriars.

Somebody who knows more, might also be able to comment on whether the Watford DC lines are similarly restricted.