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Off lease trains that still have some life left in them

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Gag Halfrunt

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We've got two threads about Gautrain wanting to buy surplus Electrostars.


 
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Gaz55

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If the 221s and 222s are eventually moved over to XC, will they need/get a decent refurb? How long would XC keep them in service before replacing them.
 

Mikey C

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East West Rail will need some DMUs for the short/medium term. As 170s are unlikely to be available, I guess they'll be looking at 175s or 185s?
 

Neptune

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They may well need a decent refurb and XCountry may keep them for a while probably until 2025
What’s happening in 2025?

If XC lease them when finished with their current operators it would be pointless to lease them for just a couple of years or so.
 
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zn1

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The HST squadrons should all be withdrawn by 2026, as most will be over their 40 year design life, it is therefore logical to cascade the younger 220-22 squadrons in to the jobs HST will be taken off of...with a good C1 overhaul of the bodies and a full underfloor Power system upgrade to the future regs, they will be abs fine...
 

MB162435

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365s for certain. Perfectly good and reliable units, with the majority sitting dormant down at Crewe.
Plus they are owned by the DfT, so they would want to find a use for them eventually either scarp or further use, doesn't look good for a government to own trains lying around not making anything, shame their planned use with GWR never happened, but at least they won't need to replace the 387s anytime soon
 

Nym

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Both 221's and 222's could go to XC in fact i would say the 222's could be reformed into 5-car and 4-car formations and the connectors to be changed so they can work with the 221s and 220's. This would give XC a significant capacity increase.
Won't happen on mating the 220/221 to a 222, completely different control systems. And not much benefit in being able to couple them.
 

MB162435

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A 10 coach 22x (single unit) could be formed with comparable seating capacity as a 3*3 class 159.

Fit one both end coaches as first class gives you 52 first class seats, then 8 standard class coaches provide 528 seats, however if you remove one of each luggage racks (gaining 2 seats per coach) you could increase this to 544, giving a total of 580 to 596 seats.

This compares with 72 first class seats and 516 standard class seats, a total of 589 seats.
Didn't Stagecoach plan to replace the 158s and 159s if they won the franchise again, not sure what they where planning some sort of bi-mode stuff I would guess

Can't see them being replaced anytime soon, nothing either coming available or available suitable really to replace them, SWR have their hands full with the 701s to order anything more for the West of England
 

HSTEd

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Unfortunately one of the downsides of the specialisation in rolling stock manufacturing we see today, with proprietary interfaces and the like, is a decrease in efficiency of use of older rolling stock.

For example, see obsolescent Class 153s being reused as bike vans on Sprinter formations for Scotrail.
Can't do that with a lot of modern stock that functionally only has multiple-working within class.
 

Metal_gee_man

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Unfortunately one of the downsides of the specialisation in rolling stock manufacturing we see today, with proprietary interfaces and the like, is a decrease in efficiency of use of older rolling stock.

For example, see obsolescent Class 153s being reused as bike vans on Sprinter formations for Scotrail.
Can't do that with a lot of modern stock that functionally only has multiple-working within class.
It's been knowledge on here for months but the Beeb have finally written a piece on it

BBC News - Active travel carriage designed for Highland line

BBC News
Active travel carriage designed for Highland line

14 June 2020 Scotland

The design for Scotrail's first active travel carriage has been revealed.

The carriage is designated for carrying bikes and large sporting equipment and will run along the West Highland Line.

The design on the outside of the carriage is by Scottish artist Peter McDermott.

It depicts Highland scenery and landmarks including the Glenfinnan monument and viaduct, Skye Cuillin mountain range, Ben Lomond, and Kilchurn Castle on Loch Awe.

Five Class 153 trains are being transformed to carry up to 20 bikes.

Scotrail said this will "enhance" the existing services on the West Highland Line.

The first carriage is expected to be completed later this year, and will come into service once staff have been trained up.

Tom Smith, of Scotrail, said: "Peter McDermott's eye-catching design pays real homage to the beautiful and tranquil West Highland Line."
 

YorksLad12

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Are any 185s actually going to end up being released by TPE if the transfer of Nottingham to Liverpool to them goes ahead?
I always thought that if no-one wanted the off-lease 185s, take the centre cars out and add them to the ones that TPE is keeping. But then the new sets formed might be a little... heavy. ;)
 

Metal_gee_man

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I always thought that if no-one wanted the off-lease 185s, take the centre cars out and add them to the ones that TPE is keeping. But then the new sets formed might be a little... heavy. ;)
Genuine question here, why are the 185s so heavy?

Is it a heavy shell, exceptionally heavy bogies, unnecessarily overpowered engines or switchgear?

Could they be lightened? How about removal of an engine and make a carriage a trailer or maybe new bogies?
 

A0

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waterloo to Exeter is lots of start/stop beyond Salisbury whereas the 222s are designed for higher speed running.
Not saying they are a suitable replacement for the 158/9s but don't forget the Meridians were brought to EMT to cover the stopping services which were killing the HSTs from a reliability point of view. Between Leicester and StP you've got 5 stops and only about 10 or so miles between those stops so comparable to Waterloo Exeter.
 

YorksLad12

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Genuine question here, why are the 185s so heavy?

Is it a heavy shell, exceptionally heavy bogies, unnecessarily overpowered engines or switchgear?

Could they be lightened? How about removal of an engine and make a carriage a trailer or maybe new bogies?
Amazingly, I found a previous thread about it: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-185-fleet-a-big-mistake.137447/

They need the engines to get over the hills; years ago they got new software so that one engine could be turned off when travelling east of Leeds as that was flatter, thus saving fuel. The weight (and thus track wear) might be why no-one else seems to want them - they are still good units and the refurbishment isn't too bad either.
 

43096

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Not saying they are a suitable replacement for the 158/9s but don't forget the Meridians were brought to EMT to cover the stopping services which were killing the HSTs from a reliability point of view. Between Leicester and StP you've got 5 stops and only about 10 or so miles between those stops so comparable to Waterloo Exeter.
They were acquired (the then 4-car ones, anyway) to replace the Turbostars on the stopping services.
 

A0

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They were acquired (the then 4-car ones, anyway) to replace the Turbostars on the stopping services.

It was both - the Turbostars were introduced to add services by running stoppers in the path behind one of the fasts IIRC - the Meridians basically eliminated HSTs stopping south of Leicester.

If you look back, the problems MML (as it was then) were having was their HST fleet was suffering reliability wise when compared to those in use on the ECML and GWML - and part of the reason cited was the stop-start nature of the route, particularly south of Leicester on the stoppers.

In that sense it's not dissimilar to the West of England mainline - but that's not the reason why Meridian's aren't the right choice for that route.
 

43096

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It was both - the Turbostars were introduced to add services by running stoppers in the path behind one of the fasts IIRC - the Meridians basically eliminated HSTs stopping south of Leicester.

If you look back, the problems MML (as it was then) were having was their HST fleet was suffering reliability wise when compared to those in use on the ECML and GWML - and part of the reason cited was the stop-start nature of the route, particularly south of Leicester on the stoppers.

In that sense it's not dissimilar to the West of England mainline - but that's not the reason why Meridian's aren't the right choice for that route.
Eh? That makes no sense. Prior to the 170s, the service was an hourly train to each of Nottingham and Sheffield, all HST, with skip stopping south of Leicester. When the 170s came in they worked hourly semi-fasts to Nottingham and Derby with the fast Sheffield and Nottingham services being HST. The 222s were a direct replacement for the 170s on the semi-fasts - 16 4-car sets replacing 17 2/3-car 170s. In short, it was the Turbostars that allowed the fast services to drop stops south of Leicester - nothing to do with the 222s - and there was no HST reliability at that time.
 

anthony263

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If we do see the wires extended westward from Cardiff to Swansea then perhaps some emus could be found to run an hourly Swansea to Cardiff swanline service which would require 4 units plus 1 spare. WG/GWR and tfw did suggest 3extending it to Bristol tm either replacing the Cardiff to Tauntin service or as an additional 3rd train each hour to Bristol tm so if that were to happen I think youd need 6 units minimum.
 

The Ham

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That’s a massive drop in first class provision for a route that is first class heavy.

You also can’t take all 10 cars to Exeter, Honiton Crossing Loop signalling is designed for 9x159 and can’t accommodate longer (also causes problems with diverted IETs).

it also injects massive costs dragging a much bigger train than necessary to Exeter. Logic for any replacement would probably be 5x23m vehicles with 10 Waterloo to Salisbury and 5 forward to Exeter although that does require some works at Salisbury as 10x23m can only use platform 4, fine for the current odd 10 car service but not for regular working.

Just for clarification I wasn't suggesting that they would be a good replacement, or even a replacement at all, rather that it would be possible to get closer to the existing passenger capacity than is generally envisaged.

However even if they weren't too be used there could be measures to facilitate their use:
- mix of 5/10 coach units with the fixed 10 coach units being used on peak hour services and the 5+5 trains being used away from the peak services
- measures to improve Honiton, especially if that allows further frequency of services between Exeter and Honiton, and is probably something which would be needed within a decade or two anyway (I'm reality within 5-15 years from when 22x's could enter service anyway)
- a slightly different mix of how the first class is provided (possibly first two coaches at one end)
- tighter seat spacing, the 159's have fairly poor legroom compared to the 22x's (mostly due to thicker seat construction, not necessarily padding thickness)

Having said that a bimodal 100/110mph unit with the ability to walk between units would be more likely, especially as a replacement for the 442's as well, would work better.

Such an order would probably have the ability for a follow on order option to cater for post Crossrail 2 service, probably the same number as the existing 444's to cater for those extra services.
 

Inthewest

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I don’t think SWR will use 222s for their Salisbury services.
And I don't know where you got that idea from what I posted? I quoted someone talking about XC taking on the 222s.

Operators, unless for splitting, do not aim to use multiple units without corridor connections in multiple.
Hence the suggestion that if all 22x classes found their way to XC (likely), bin some end cars (use for spares) and create a fleet of long [er than 4 and 5 coach] trains.
 
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Parallel

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And I don't know where you got that idea from what I posted? I quoted someone talking about XC taking on the 222s.

I realised should’ve quoted The Ham’s post, I was pointing out that multiple working does have its uses, especially on the SWR network where services split and drop carriages at various points of their network. I agree that the next XC franchise should order longer trains to reduce/eliminate multiple working, but the 222s will be a good stop gap until then!
 

Fincra5

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Was a bit bored, in the heat, so went on Paint.net and knocked up some "What If" Diagrams for the Class 458s.

Transfer to Southern to replace 313s? (Reduced to 4 Cars due to Platforms/ Storage Issues) Extras could be used if the Marshlink gets 3rd Rail...

First Image is the generic Southern livery (Based off a 377), the middle image is a variation of the "Coastway" Scheme worn by 313s and the Bottom Image is the "Coastway" Scheme worn by 313s.
SN_458_v1.jpgSN_458_v2.jpgSN_458_v3.jpg
 
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