Face coverings compulsory on public transport in England from 15 June

[greyman42]

what is the newspaper method?

 

[WM Bus]

what is the newspaper method?

They sometimes will turn the engine off and say they're not moving until they come back and pay I believe.

But often people won't pay and the driver gives up from what i've seen, or they come back and start giving verbal abuse/hitting the assault screen.

From what I've read in the comments to this it sounds like it will rely on peoples compliance mainly and drivers can remind them:

Steve Dooner Andy Williams I don't now what information ur garage have given you but the memo we have had we can politely remind them to wear a mask if we belive they are not willing to wear one for no reason then to record on the machine by the no mask button

Steve Dooner No drivers can not refuse entry for not wearing a mask they can politely remind them they have to wear one but not refuse travel as they could have a medical condition that's what we have been told to do

Facebook

www.facebook.com

 

[PG]

The revised legislation from Monday at the moment does not state anything about face coverings.

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2020

These Regulations further amend the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020 (S.I. 2020/350) to permit the opening of retail businesses and certain outdoor attractions, to enable churches to open for private prayer by individuals, to make provision for linked...

www.legislation.gov.uk

I suspect there may need to separate legislation to cover this issue which would need to be published tomorrow if it has to take effect from Monday.

They could even publish it in the wee small hours of Monday before the start of services!

 

[67016]

I'm looking forward to seeing how creative people get with the loose term face covering. I'm currently considering drilling two eye holes in a bucket and wearing on my head. It would cover my nose and mouth so there for is classed as a face covering!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Here in the United Kingdom, we operate under the rule of law.

Government Ministers making speeches, statements being placed on websites, signage at stations, and warnings on PISs do not make law. The Houses of Parliament make law. They delegate some of these law-making authorities to ministers and others, but these powers have to be exercised in the manner that the Houses of Parliament have specified.

Your assertion that a law provides for the issuance of fines to members of the public failing to wear face coverings on public transport was not correct. A law may come into existence in the future that so provides. For now, one does not, and no amount of wibble spoken by Grant Shapps makes one exist.

Spare me the law lecture, I've nowhere said that legislation of any sort has been enacted, and more than aware that no offence can currently be committed until such time as it is. The post about fines was written in the context of what has been reported by the media about what will be the consequences of not wearing one when legislation has been enacted.

However the government and rail industry are making it clear that the law and rules will be changed from Monday and that's what the general discussion on here is about.

Maybe the moderators should consider pausing posts to this thread until the law is changed, as it appears general discussion is confusing some.

I suppose, technically, that an instruction in the form of a notice or verbal instruction could be issued that complies with Byelaw 12, if the wearing of a face covering was considered necessary in the name of safety?

12. Safety instructions
(1) An Operator may issue reasonable instructions relating to safety on any part of the railway by means of a notice on or near that part of the railway. No person shall, without good cause, disobey such notice.
(2) An authorised person may, in an emergency or in other circumstances in which he believes he should act in the interests of safety, issue instructions to any person on the railway. No person shall, without good cause, disobey such instructions.

Although the punishment for non compliance would probably not be an on the spot fine as I don't think Byelaws allow for that.

 

[Scrotnig]

Let’s face it, they don’t want us on public transport. I shall reluctantly, and with great sadness, comply and will not use it.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, I've worked out how to wear mine without my glasses steaming up, so that's progress

 

[Cowley]

Well, I've worked out how to wear mine without my glasses steaming up, so that's progress

It won’t work if you put on the back of your head Rob...

 

[sheff1]

It won’t work if you put on the back of your head Rob...

Round here about a third of the few who wear one seem certain that it works if you have it on your chin.
>>>

Still no sign of any legislation - pretty pathetic when this thread has been live since 4th June.

 

[yorksrob]

It won’t work if you put on the back of your head Rob...

D'oh, you've rumbled me

 

[LOM]

Round here about a third of the few who wear one seem certain that it works if you have it on your chin.
>>>

Still no sign of any legislation - pretty pathetic when this thread has been live since 4th June.

That is an interesting point. There has been plenty of time to put the various amendments to this ‘emergency’ legislation before parliament but it is still being enacted by the powers vested in the Secretary of State for Health without any form of parliamentary scrutiny whatsoever. Why is nobody in the media questioning this?

 

[PupCuff]

It's becoming quite frustrating now.

The rules come in to place on Monday and yet there is no sign of legislation or changes to Conditions of Travel as mooted etc thus giving people no sight of penalties, enforcement arrangements, or exemptions.

It was announced over a week ago, why has it been left until the last second?

The industry has issued a variety of 'question and answer' documents to staff and customers - different ones for each TOC - and those that I've seen across a few companies have been giving in some cases inconsistent advice.

Those (staff or customer) with medical conditions (of which I am one) still are none the wiser as to whether our medical condition will legally allow us to travel without a mask, what proof if any we will need for such, and/or whether company policies will try and require us to wear one, which for some medical conditions would create a more substantial and immediate risk of serious illness or death than the coronavirus.

It's embarrassing being collared by frontline colleagues (of a number of TOCs, we do all talk, well most of us anyway) who are doing a fantastic job keeping the railway moving, who share their concerns and ask questions, and we just can't answer them.

Edit ^PC - the above post appears to have been edited by someone (I presume a moderator) after I posted it so despite having my name beside it does not necessarily reflect my views.

 

[LittleAH]

It's becoming quite frustrating now.

The rules come in to place on Monday and yet there is no sign of legislation or changes to Conditions of Travel as mooted etc thus giving people no sight of penalties, enforcement arrangements, or exemptions.

It was announced over a week ago, why has it been left until the last second?

The industry has issued a variety of 'question and answer' documents to staff and customers - different ones for each TOC - and those that I've seen across a few companies have been giving in some cases inconsistent advice.

Those (staff or customer) with medical conditions (of which I am one) still are none the wiser as to whether our medical condition will legally allow us to travel without a mask, what proof if any we will need for such, and/or whether company policies will try and require us to wear one, which for some medical conditions would create a more substantial and immediate risk of serious illness or death than the coronavirus.

It's embarrassing being collared by frontline colleagues (of a number of TOCs, we do all talk, well most of us anyway) who are doing a fantastic job keeping the railway moving, who share their concerns and ask questions, and we just can't answer them.

That's because the announcement that Schapps made was done without TOC's being aware. And TOC's are still waiting from guidance from the RDG and DfT on enforcement.

I do hope that people do wear the face coverings though (unless they are exempt).without looking for whatever loophole possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

what is the newspaper method?

Turn the engine off, take out the newspaper (The Sun seems de-rigeur, but other papers are available and indeed preferable, though the Torygraph may be a bit difficult due to the lack of space) and wait for a passenger to resolve the situation for you.

 

[Mintona]

My wife bought a mask which arrived today. I wore it around the house for around five minutes to see what it was like. It was uncomfortable, it made my glasses steam up, wouldn’t sit underneath the lenses properly and I felt dizzy afterwards. I genuinely don’t know how I’m going to wear one from Monday.

And for what it’s worth, she had the same problems (sans glasses although she tried her sunglasses and agreed the steaming up is a real problem). It also made her ears hurt. So she won’t be wearing it either.

 

[midland1]

I thought the government owed allegiance to the citizens after all they pay they wages so the are the bosses.

 

[PupCuff]

My wife bought a mask which arrived today. I wore it around the house for around five minutes to see what it was like. It was uncomfortable, it made my glasses steam up, wouldn’t sit underneath the lenses properly and I felt dizzy afterwards. I genuinely don’t know how I’m going to wear one from Monday.

Raise it with your manager and H&S rep in the first instance, explain that it causes you issues seeing through your glasses and makes you feel dizzy, and if going on from that you think you're being asked to do something which puts you in serious and imminent danger (which not being able to see, and having your head spinning, then being told to work around moving trains, electrification, stairs etc is reasonably likely to mean) you can stop the job and invoke Worksafe.

 

[Pete_uk]

I thought the government owed allegiance to the citizens after all they pay they wages so the are the bosses.

LOL aww bless!

It will be interesting to see how some police forces enforce it with gay aplomb while others all but ignore it until there is blood on the ceiling and teeth in the seat covers

 

[Trackman]

Slightly OT- an email from Uber today:

New face covering policy

We're introducing mandatory face coverings as of Monday, June 15th to help protect the health and safety of you and your driver. From Monday, if you aren't wearing a face mask or covering, your driver has the right to cancel your ride. Similarly, you can also cancel your ride if your driver arrives and is not wearing a face covering. Finally, anyone who is repeatedly flagged for not wearing a face covering will risk losing access to the app.

 

[Llanigraham]

My wife bought a mask which arrived today. I wore it around the house for around five minutes to see what it was like. It was uncomfortable, it made my glasses steam up, wouldn’t sit underneath the lenses properly and I felt dizzy afterwards. I genuinely don’t know how I’m going to wear one from Monday.

And for what it’s worth, she had the same problems (sans glasses although she tried her sunglasses and agreed the steaming up is a real problem). It also made her ears hurt. So she won’t be wearing it either.

That suggests you either bought the wrong mask or you aren't wearing it correctly.
I suggest reading this thread:

Facecoverings : Practical Tips and Advice

This thread is for the sharing of tips and advice re the creation and practical wearing of face coverings. Here are a couple of useful articles: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52609777...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[WM Bus]

In regards to those exempt surely there should be some sort of pass they can get and show to transport staff and the police. To prove they are exempt, surely it would save any problems from occurring.
And separate these people from those who have no reason not to wear a mask surely.

 

[MikeWM]

I noted zero railway staff - on stations or trains - wearing a mask today (apart from some of the cleaning staff). One guy was wearing a visor, that was it.

You’d think if the staff were as keen on this as the unions were making out, they wouldn’t be waiting until the last minute to start doing it...

 

[yorkie]

Edit ^PC - the above post appears to have been edited by someone (I presume a moderator) after I posted it so despite having my name beside it does not necessarily reflect my views.

I sent you the following at 19:24:

Good post but it was difficult to read as it was all in one paragraph, so I edited it to separate it out into paragraphs, hope that's OK

If anyone wishes to contact moderators and/or provide feedback and/or express concerns, please do so directly, thanks

 

[island]

Are there any details yet on the legal basis for this ban, what will be required of customers, and who will be exempt/how one will be expected to prove their exemption?

I have yet to see any of the above.

 

[PupCuff]

I sent you the following at 19:24:

Oh, I'm sorry, that hasn't come through, perhaps it's flying around in the ether somewhere. But thanks for the heads up, all is well, have a virtual, socially distanced handshake

 

[greatkingrat]

I noted zero railway staff - on stations or trains - wearing a mask today (apart from some of the cleaning staff). One guy was wearing a visor, that was it.

You’d think if the staff were as keen on this as the unions were making out, they wouldn’t be waiting until the last minute to start doing it...

I think the problem is the staff who want masks and gloves and everything deep cleaned every 10 minutes are the ones that are contacting the union reps. So they tend to assume that most staff want this even though the majority probably aren't bothered.

 

[Bayum]

Are there any details yet on the legal basis for this ban, what will be required of customers, and who will be exempt/how one will be expected to prove their exemption?

Those with 'breathing difficulties' and very young children. Whatever encompasses 'breathing difficulties' is anyone's guess right now.

 

[PG]

My wife bought a mask which arrived today. I wore it around the house for around five minutes to see what it was like. It was uncomfortable, it made my glasses steam up, wouldn’t sit underneath the lenses properly and I felt dizzy afterwards. I genuinely don’t know how I’m going to wear one from Monday.

Raise it with your manager and H&S rep in the first instance, explain that it causes you issues seeing through your glasses and makes you feel dizzy, and if going on from that you think you're being asked to do something which puts you in serious and imminent danger (which not being able to see, and having your head spinning, then being told to work around moving trains, electrification, stairs etc is reasonably likely to mean) you can stop the job and invoke Worksafe.

Further to the advice from @PupCuff, and with the provision that I'm not a qualified medical professional, feeling dizzy seems to me like a symptom of breathing difficulties. As such that seems like a valid reason, as mentioned, to raise the issue with your manager or if, for some reason that is not possible, stop the job and invoke Worksafe.

 

[bspahh]

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/face-coverings.aspx has some guidance and links to https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ng/how-to-wear-and-make-a-cloth-face-covering

In https://www.gov.uk/government/news/face-coverings-to-become-mandatory-on-public-transport Grant Shapps says " The changes will be made under legislation such as the National Rail Conditions of Travel"

The latest version of the National Rail Conditions of Travel at
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/46427.aspx are from December 4th 2019, and don't mention anything about face coverings. The rules are due to come into force on Monday. Perhaps there will be an update to the National Rail Conditions of Travel by then.

 

[Mojo]

In https://www.gov.uk/government/news/face-coverings-to-become-mandatory-on-public-transport Grant Shapps says " The changes will be made under legislation such as the National Rail Conditions of Travel"

The press release and press conference from yesterday said that Regulations will be introduced under the Public Health Act. Just as good, because, as I and others pointed out over the last week, that is pretty much the only way it will be enforceable by the police across all public transport modes, and certainly the only way a financial penalty or fine can be imposed.