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Is it time to relax the 2m social distancing guideline? (WHO guidance is 1m)

What change do you think should happen to social distancing guidelines?


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Bletchleyite

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Perhaps you need to say that the distance should be a minimum of 1 metre.

That makes sense. "A minimum of 1 metre, but to save risk of people having to self-isolate unnecessarily, if 2 metres is possible please do do that". For many shops, 2 metres is entirely feasible, certainly while the weather permits outside queueing.

There is, at the moment, to all intents and purposes, a summary 14 day prison sentence (at home) for coming within 2m of an infected person for 15 minutes or more. I think most people will want to try to avoid that. (Track and trace aren't interested in someone you weren't within 2m of at all).
 
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Bantamzen

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That makes sense. "A minimum of 1 metre, but to save risk of people having to self-isolate unnecessarily, if 2 metres is possible please do do that". For many shops, 2 metres is entirely feasible, certainly while the weather permits outside queueing.

There is, at the moment, to all intents and purposes, a summary 14 day prison sentence (at home) for coming within 2m of an infected person for 15 minutes or more. I think most people will want to try to avoid that. (Track and trace aren't interested in someone you weren't within 2m of at all).

Sticking to just on minimum will save on confusion & hassle & not cause more problems than it solves. Many people are likely to stand much further away through force of habit.
 

The Ham

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1m ('where possible') seems sensible and rather natural to me. I'm quite keen on personal space and people closer than 1m (when there is the option of spreading out) feel too close.

It does seem that this should have been done *before* all the shops reopened though - the last thing they needed after three months of forced closure was to go to the expense of refitting for 2m separation, only to have it changed shortly thereafter.

(o/t, but in 'totally predictable news', I note the reports of high-street shops announcing redundancies/closures has already become a daily thing, and the furlough scheme hasn't even ended yet).

The reason for talk of redundancy well in advance of the furlough scheme ending is down to the fact that large business need to consult for 45 days before redundancies can be made, with many business needing to (or at least advised to even if they doubt actually have to) consult for 30 days.
 

The Ham

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Why would it need to be scrapped? 2m is better than 1m, so why not keep 2m in a given shop if it is workable? Allowing 1m is for places 2m is not workable.

Even for many places where 2m isn't always possible, for much of the time it should be. Therefore keep the 2m signs and add notes saying "please maintain a minimum of 1m and then for short periods when this shop is busy"
 

Peter Mugridge

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Wasn't the 5,000 a day the latest Office of National Statistics estimate, down from their previous estimate of 8,000 a day?

Following from this, the ONS have this morning updated their estimates again; they are now saying 1 in 1,700 people infected ( 33,000 nationally ), reduced from 1 in 1,000 last week. I have not yet seen an update to the "infections per day" estimate, but it's clearly going to be a lot lower than 5,000 now isn't it?
 

Yew

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Following from this, the ONS have this morning updated their estimates again; they are now saying 1 in 1,700 people infected ( 33,000 nationally ), reduced from 1 in 1,000 last week. I have not yet seen an update to the "infections per day" estimate, but it's clearly going to be a lot lower than 5,000 now isn't it?

A naive approximation would put us at 5000/1.7 = 3000. I've ever been an advocate of locking down until infections are very low, but even I'm looking at those numbers and thinking that we could have very low levels by the end of the month.
 

LAX54

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Are we just putting off the inevitable ? lock everyone away, social distance, so the virus, is reduced, then go back to normal in 6 months, even a year, then it would only take a few people to kick it all off again, and as we have been all locked away, no immunity, so back to sqaure 1 !
 

Bantamzen

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Are we just putting off the inevitable ? lock everyone away, social distance, so the virus, is reduced, then go back to normal in 6 months, even a year, then it would only take a few people to kick it all off again, and as we have been all locked away, no immunity, so back to sqaure 1 !

Quite possibly. It does make me wonder about New Zealand's approach. At first you might say it was incredibly effective, but is it too effective? There is the very real possibility that when their borders finally reopen, immunity / expose to the virus will be so low that the place will see sudden rises and have to lockdown again. Nature it seems, does not necessarily respect political decisions.
 

MikeWM

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Are we just putting off the inevitable ? lock everyone away, social distance, so the virus, is reduced, then go back to normal in 6 months, even a year, then it would only take a few people to kick it all off again, and as we have been all locked away, no immunity, so back to sqaure 1 !

Basically, yes, which is why I've been opposed to this course of action we've followed all along. You either get to herd immunity somehow - which is either via people getting the disease, or via a vaccine (and there are still no particular reasons to suppose we'll find a vaccine any time soon) - or you cross your fingers and hope the virus loses potency over time.

There are no other 'ways out'. So we should have stuck with the usual method of letting healthy people be exposed to it (along with sensible protection of the vulnerable).
 

joncombe

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Social Distancing is also now to be scapped in Guernsey (similar to the announcement from the Isle of Man yesterday). There will be no limits on public gatherings, all pubs, clubs etc to re-open without restrictions. It seems once this is done, on the 20th June the only restrictions that will exist are the need to self-isolate in certain circumstances and border restrictions.

 

Bletchleyite

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LAX54

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Basically, yes, which is why I've been opposed to this course of action we've followed all along. You either get to herd immunity somehow - which is either via people getting the disease, or via a vaccine (and there are still no particular reasons to suppose we'll find a vaccine any time soon) - or you cross your fingers and hope the virus loses potency over time.

There are no other 'ways out'. So we should have stuck with the usual method of letting healthy people be exposed to it (along with sensible protection of the vulnerable).

Agree, although maybe due to way it's been reported, in a minority.#, part of me says, this is bad, and another part says this shluld have just run it's course, and FB / 24 hr News just peddled bad news. 68 Hong Kong flu, did not have lockdown, it too took elderly people, but there were not so many then, it is only recent years that due to medicine, many have lived longer
 

Enthusiast

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Why would it need to be scrapped?
For the reasons I cited in my post #439. The UK is probably among the best country in Europe at "gold plating" regulations. We have had 40 years of practice doing so with EU Directives. Here we have a piece of advice, not a rule, not a law, not a directive, but a piece of quite sensible advice to be taken if appropriate and practical which has been religiously translated by everybody as an absolute must do. It is not normal for people to remain 2m away from others with whom they are interacting and that's a very good reason why this advice should not be allowed to further injure an already mortally wounded economy. To look upon it as some sort of permanent arrangement or "new normal" is simply ludicrous.
 

Class 33

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In the "Road Map" of easing of lockdown mentioned by Boris back in May, June 15th would mean the re-opening of non-essential shops, and July 4th would mean the re-opening of the leisure and hospitality industry. But it's not been mentioned on the "Road Map" yet what the easing of lockdown in early August will be. What will that involve? Well hopefully by then we would wiped out(or near enough) this blastetd, so we can near enough get back to normal and scrap this social distancing nonsense altogether and get back on with our lives properly. Although I think the ban on mass gatherings like festivals and spectatorship of sporting events will probably remain for the rest of the year.
 

Bletchleyite

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In the "Road Map" of easing of lockdown mentioned by Boris back in May, June 15th would mean the re-opening of non-essential shops, and July 4th would mean the re-opening of the leisure and hospitality industry. But it's not been mentioned on the "Road Map" yet what the easing of lockdown in early August will be. What will that involve?

There might not be one, as there's then no industry closed. What you've got then is the (to coin a phrase) "new normal" which would remain in place until either a vaccine is delivered or it becomes unequivocally clear there won't be one.
 

duncanp

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Perhaps the easing of the lockdown in early August will coincide with the start of the new football season, and a limited number of spectators allowed into each match.

Each club should be able to work out how many people their stadium can accommodate at a social distance of 1 metre, and this should be manageable given that the risk of transmission outdoors is much lower.

There might also be an easing of the restrictions on those who are shielding.
 

Class 33

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Well they're going to have to drop this social distancing by August surely, as it will not be feasible and possible to keep going with this "new normal" and social distancing nonsense for months on end. For many businesses it won't be financially feasible to keep going longterm with 1 metre social distancing measures, let alone 2 metres. And what about public transport? Even with 1 metre social distancing measures, trains, coaches, buses, trams, etc would only be able to accommodate up to about 30% of usual maximum capacity!
 

NorthOxonian

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Perhaps the easing of the lockdown in early August will coincide with the start of the new football season, and a limited number of spectators allowed into each match.

Each club should be able to work out how many people their stadium can accommodate at a social distance of 1 metre, and this should be manageable given that the risk of transmission outdoors is much lower.

There might also be an easing of the restrictions on those who are shielding.

The club which I support would have no problem even with 2 metre distancing - our average attendance is under 1,000 but with a ground capacity of about 12,000. The issue is there's some evidence to suggest shouting or singing can transmit the virus - good luck trying to keep a few hundred Geordies silent after most have had a couple of pints!
 

317 forever

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Do you know why?

Because the lockdown was only going to work for about three months.

People have had enough. They want to meet their friends, see family, travel, have parties, have intimate relationships. These are all human natural things. If the Government think they can enforce a lockdown longer than the end of the month they’re in a fantasy land.

I do remember Boris saying, admittedly this could have been just before the lockdown started, that we should be making some headway within 12 weeks. Well, this Monday will be 12 weeks since the lockdown started. So yes, people are bound to feel the lockdown should be coming to an end by now.

The current number of new cases point to part of the lockdown at least remaining advisable for at least another few weeks.
 

6862

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Well they're going to have to drop this social distancing by August surely, as it will not be feasible and possible to keep going with this "new normal" and social distancing nonsense for months on end. For many businesses it won't be financially feasible to keep going longterm with 1 metre social distancing measures, let alone 2 metres. And what about public transport? Even with 1 metre social distancing measures, trains, coaches, buses, trams, etc would only be able to accommodate up to about 30% of usual maximum capacity!

I think you're right that the physical distance measurement (2m or 1m) will have to be dropped sooner or later in the case of businesses, in order for them to survive. However I can't see the government dropping it in settings which don't directly impact the economy - schools, universities, churches, people's homes etc., because all of these are powerful ways for them to keep up the required level of fear to keep the population under control.
 

nedchester

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I think you're right that the physical distance measurement (2m or 1m) will have to be dropped sooner or later in the case of businesses, in order for them to survive. However I can't see the government dropping it in settings which don't directly impact the economy - schools, universities, churches, people's homes etc., because all of these are powerful ways for them to keep up the required level of fear to keep the population under control.

Yep....control by fear for a non questioning population.
 

Jamesrob637

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There might not be one, as there's then no industry closed. What you've got then is the (to coin a phrase) "new normal" which would remain in place until either a vaccine is delivered or it becomes unequivocally clear there won't be one.

People such as the travel industry (particularly the business travel side which won't pick up as quickly as the leisure side, but also some aspects of leisure travel) will slowly return to work as from August.

Just to clarify, that may include myself if I've not somehow managed to have an interview (if even a virtual one) and move on within the next six to seven weeks.
 

The Ham

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Perhaps the easing of the lockdown in early August will coincide with the start of the new football season, and a limited number of spectators allowed into each match.

Each club should be able to work out how many people their stadium can accommodate at a social distance of 1 metre, and this should be manageable given that the risk of transmission outdoors is much lower.

There might also be an easing of the restrictions on those who are shielding.

The capacity of the ground is easy to manage, what's not is the travel to get there.

It's not uncommon for fans to travel to matches by rather busy trains, even for those where train travel isn't an issue just the numbers outside the ground on the way in or out could be a problem.
 

duncanp

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The Daily Telegraph are reporting that SAGE, the committee which advises the government, has said that it is safe to reduce the social distancing limit to 1 metre, provided other measures are taken to mitigate the risk of transmission.



The two-metre social distancing rule can be abandoned by businesses reopening after lockdown if they introduce other measures to reduce the spread of coronavirus, Government scientists have told ministers.
Following a political backlash against the two-metre rule, the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) published a paper on Friday which set out protocols – such as regular breaks, and getting workers to sit side by side – that would make it much safer for people to be within one metre of each other.
Over the past few days, officials have begun discreetly contacting business groups to ask whether they would object to it being watered down, The Telegraph understands.
Downing Street is preparing to make a public announcement formally dropping the blanket two-metre rule after infections fall further, possibly within days.
The Office for National Statistics (ONS) revealed on Friday that infection in the community had dropped to just 0.06 per cent, while 12 areas saw no new cases last week. The figures suggest just one in 1,600 people have coronavirus, down from one in 1,000 in a week.

The move on the two-metre rule has come amid growing Government concern over the state of the economy. Figures released on Friday showed the UK economy suffered its worst-ever monthly collapse in April as the virus lockdown crushed GDP by more than 20 per cent.
Government scientists have told ministers it is up to businesses to carry out their own risk assessments about how they can operate safely as non-essential shops in England prepare to reopen on Monday.
Their research shows that a distance of one metre side by side, common in most offices, is as safe as facing someone two metres away.
On Friday, Boris Johnson said the Government was "working with the scientists" on when the two metre rule can be axed, adding: "What we're looking for is the moment when we've got the numbers... down so far that we can really say that the two-metre rule is no longer necessary.
"We are doing a review right now and obviously, as we make further progress, I hope to say more."
It came as Sage set out how businesses could mitigate risks in situations in which two-metre face-to-face distancing cannot be achieved.
The papers, released by its environmental and modelling group, show that a distance of two metres is safer than one in reducing the risk of virus transmission.
The research suggests that with the right safety measures – including good ventilation, regular breaks, wearing of masks and the right positioning of staff so they do not directly face each other – risks can be significantly reduced.
Earlier this month, a major Lancet study found the risk of infection is 1.3 per cent at two metres or 2.6 per cent at one metre.
But the new research says this does not consider the positioning of the person – meaning the way they are facing – or how the virus is likely to be transmitted.
When people are at close range and face to face, transmission is most likely to be through respiratory droplets, but aerosol transmission of fine particles can carry further depending on ventilation.
The new research says that sitting within one metre of a person side by side or back to back is as safe as facing a person at two metres when indoors.
"When people are side to side or behind one another, risk is via aerosols and so is determined by the influence of ventilation; at one metre the exposure risks would be similar to two metres when face to face in an indoor environment," it says.
One business source said civil servants had been in touch in recent days asking if they would "kick up a fuss" if the Government cut the distance to one metre.
Government sources confirmed the calls had taken place but they said they were part of the usual liaison with business groups, adding that "there is always business stakeholder engagement, asking 'just how badly do you feel about this' to gauge reaction."
Boris Johnson has said 'we are doing a review right now'

Boris Johnson has said 'we are doing a review right now' CREDIT: AFP
Mr Johnson has said the overall rate of infections and rates of new hospital admissions would be key to the decision.
On Friday, the Scottish Secretary, Alister Jack, became the first Cabinet minister to admit publicly that he "would like" to see the two-metre social distancing rule relaxed.
He said more tourism businesses would remain viable if the two-metre social distancing rule was halved, adding: "As soon as it is possible to do so with the 'R' number suppressed, I would like to see it move to one metre.
"I think, to get back to something to near normal in the way that we conduct our lives and our businesses, as we see the virus recede – and we've seen this happen without any bad consequences in other European countries – we should move to one metre when the time is right."
Rishi Sunak, the Chancellor, Grant Shapps, the Transport Secretary, and Alok Sharma, the Business Secretary, are all said to be pushing Mr Johnson privately for the change.
Meanwhile, the UK tourism industry has warned that the two-metre rule risks turning holiday hotspots into ghost towns.
Tourism Alliance, which represents more than 200,000 businesses, said the current guidance would lead to "a wave of business closures and redundancies".

I think we could see an announcement as soon as next week, when Boris Johnson next takes the daily press conference. It might also pave the way for the government to give a date for re-opening pubs and the hopsitality industry. :D
 

Bikeman78

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The capacity of the ground is easy to manage, what's not is the travel to get there.

It's not uncommon for fans to travel to matches by rather busy trains, even for those where train travel isn't an issue just the numbers outside the ground on the way in or out could be a problem.
If the pubs are still shut or running at reduced capacity then the fans will try to arrive as late as possible before the match and depart as soon as possible afterwards. So those trains will be packed. It simply won't work. Or they might all try and drive but then the queues move to the car parks instead of the station. I've seen car parks in Cardiff after gigs or sporting events. The queues for the payment machines and the lifts are unreal.
 

Llanigraham

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I think we could see an announcement as soon as next week, when Boris Johnson next takes the daily press conference. It might also pave the way for the government to give a date for re-opening pubs and the hopsitality industry. :D

I've seen comments on another forum that suggests that the brewers and the LVAs have been told August or Septmeber
 

Scrotnig

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I've seen comments on another forum that suggests that the brewers and the LVAs have been told August or Septmeber
Be hardly any pubs left by then.

I have suspected for some time that the government plan to use this crisis to kill off the pub industry almost entirely. They don't like it, the police don't like it, and if they can kill it off they will.
 

Llanigraham

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Be hardly any pubs left by then.

I have suspected for some time that the government plan to use this crisis to kill off the pub industry almost entirely. They don't like it, the police don't like it, and if they can kill it off they will.
Really?
And where do you think they will get their tax duty from instead?
And I've seen no dislike from the Police.
 

Bletchleyite

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Be hardly any pubs left by then.

If my bike round south Bucks this afternoon was anything to go by, lots of them are open...for takeaway, which is being consumed on any nearby grassland, basically meaning beer gardens have de-facto reopened, so might as well de-jure reopen too.

It all looked very civilised and a bit olde-worlde[1], to be honest, groups looking like families etc sitting around on cloths on the grass with a takeaway beer and a picnic, with plenty of bicycles around the place and very few cars about.

[1] The villages in the valleys around Chesham are very olde-worlde at the best of times - cricket greens etc - classic rich London commuterland and far posher than semi-detached Metroland.
 
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