Is there enough support for people with Covid-19

[Yew]

Hi All,

It's been on my mind for a while that there isn't a terrific amount of support for people who have, or have been asked to contact tracers to isolate for 14 days. Do we think that there should be more done to help these people do the right thing, and ensure that they experience no undue hardships?

For context, this came to mind as a result of the small businessman at the briefing today (11/6), where it seemed that there was no real plan to support individuals who can't work, or businesses that are severely effected by multiple infections>

Yew

 

[DelayRepay]

I think I agree, there is a lack of support (practically and financially), and if we want people to isolate when they show symptoms or have been in contacted by Track and Trace, we need to make it as easy as possible.

My own experience of isolation (a cough during the early days) was that the problems were purely practical. I was already working from home, so no impact on my income (and I am lucky that my employer could commit to paying any staff who could not work in any case). The practical problem was getting shopping. No supermarket delivery slots, no family nearby or close friends nearby that I could ask, not particularly close to my neighbours (most are elderly anyway). It looked like the only option I had was to ask a local volunteer group for help, but in all my life I have never had to turn to charity. I also didn't want a random food parcel from the council (which, as far as I can tell, are really intended for people in poverty rather than people like me who have enough money but just couldn't go outside). Fortunately I was able to get a Morrisons food parcel delivered which wasn't great but did the job.

My sister's experience was different, she was isolating due to her partner having symptoms. She had no problems with shopping as her friend lives next door. Her problem was financial, her employer gave her a choice between SSP or using annual leave. I suspect the employer could not afford to pay full wages when they had several staff isolating and had to pay other staff overtime to cover. These employees are key workers in the care sector so working from home or closing down were not options.

Someone else I know had to isolate, and was told by their employer that they would be paid on this occasion, but if it happened again they would not be paid. They said they were made to feel like a naughty child who's forged a note from his mum to get out of PE...

Some people simply cannot afford to lose their income, so will go out to work despite the need for isolation.

So overall, if we are asking people to isolate (and I assume Track and Trace will make this more common, possibly on multiple occasions), there needs to be practical and financial support. And this needs to be 'official' rather than relying on the kindness of volunteers and/or the compassion/ability of an employer to continue to pay wages.

 

[scotrail158713]

I think I agree, there is a lack of support (practically and financially), and if we want people to isolate when they show symptoms or have been in contacted by Track and Trace, we need to make it as easy as possible.

My own experience of isolation (a cough during the early days) was that the problems were purely practical. I was already working from home, so no impact on my income (and I am lucky that my employer could commit to paying any staff who could not work in any case). The practical problem was getting shopping. No supermarket delivery slots, no family nearby or close friends nearby that I could ask, not particularly close to my neighbours (most are elderly anyway). It looked like the only option I had was to ask a local volunteer group for help, but in all my life I have never had to turn to charity. I also didn't want a random food parcel from the council (which, as far as I can tell, are really intended for people in poverty rather than people like me who have enough money but just couldn't go outside). Fortunately I was able to get a Morrisons food parcel delivered which wasn't great but did the job.

My sister's experience was different, she was isolating due to her partner having symptoms. She had no problems with shopping as her friend lives next door. Her problem was financial, her employer gave her a choice between SSP or using annual leave. I suspect the employer could not afford to pay full wages when they had several staff isolating and had to pay other staff overtime to cover. These employees are key workers in the care sector so working from home or closing down were not options.

Someone else I know had to isolate, and was told by their employer that they would be paid on this occasion, but if it happened again they would not be paid. They said they were made to feel like a naughty child who's forged a note from his mum to get out of PE...

Some people simply cannot afford to lose their income, so will go out to work despite the need for isolation.

So overall, if we are asking people to isolate (and I assume Track and Trace will make this more common, possibly on multiple occasions), there needs to be practical and financial support. And this needs to be 'official' rather than relying on the kindness of volunteers and/or the compassion/ability of an employer to continue to pay wages.

I’m sorry to hear about those situations. This is where I believe the furlough scheme should be used, and I think is what it was intended for. Unfortunately it’s been used so that some businesses have decided to just shut up shop for a few months, and let the government foot the bill, when really they could/should stay open.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m sorry to hear about those situations. This is where I believe the furlough scheme should be used, and I think is what it was intended for. Unfortunately it’s been used so that some businesses have decided to just shut up shop for a few months, and let the government foot the bill, when really they could/should stay open.

No, furlough is not and never was intended to cover precautionary isolation other than those shielding (the minimum 3 weeks makes this very clear; isolation is 7 days with symptoms and 14 without). It's intended for those who can't open their businesses or have to short-term downsize them at present, e.g. pubs and the likes. For isolation, sick pay is appropriate - the problem there being that some are only entitled to statutory, which could really do with being fixed.

It has been misused by some businesses which could have opened and would have had enough work if they had, but that isn't the same issue.

 

[Yew]

For isolation, sick pay is appropriate - the problem there being that some are only entitled to statutory, which could really do with being fixed.

Indeed, it feels like Isolation sick pay shouldn't contribute towards any allowances or limits, and perhaps even be Government funded.

 

[DelayRepay]

Indeed, it feels like Isolation sick pay shouldn't contribute towards any allowances or limits, and perhaps even be Government funded.

In my view there should be an Isolation Allowance, funded by the government, which would be completely separate from any other benefits. It would be open to fraud and not easy to implement, but would at least mean people who should be isolating wouldn't decide to go to work because of the lack of income otherwise.

I just had a thought - could there be a system similar to loss of earnings payments for jury service? Isolation is, in a sense, for the benefit of society as a whole rather than for the individual.

What made it worse for my sister was that her partner was also isolating and receiving SSP. So a household with two low wage earners suddenly had no income.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my view there should be an Isolation Allowance, funded by the government, which would be completely separate from any other benefits. It would be open to fraud and not easy to implement, but would at least mean people who should be isolating wouldn't decide to go to work because of the lack of income otherwise.

That as a minimum, yes. I'd go further and implement a mandatory sickness "national insurance" policy applying to everyone regardless of how they are employed, including the self-employed, and make it cover either full pay or perhaps 80%, but bottoming out at the minimum wage. It isn't just about COVID, people come into work sick all the time and spread all sorts round, and it needs to stop as it's bad for everyone.

Moving this sort of thing to statutory policies makes creating and employing people in small businesses easier, too.

 

[underbank]

I’m sorry to hear about those situations. This is where I believe the furlough scheme should be used, and I think is what it was intended for. Unfortunately it’s been used so that some businesses have decided to just shut up shop for a few months, and let the government foot the bill, when really they could/should stay open.

That makes no sense. Furlough only covers the cost of employee wages. It doesn't cover all the other business costs, such as rent, rates, power, insurance, subscriptions/professional fees, bank charges & loan interest, equipment leasing, potential wastage of goods past their shelf lives, etc etc. Why would a business close it's doors and incur all those ongoing costs if it could have stayed open and at least broken even?

 

[underbank]

That as a minimum, yes. I'd go further and implement a mandatory sickness "national insurance" policy applying to everyone regardless of how they are employed, including the self-employed, and make it cover either full pay or perhaps 80%, but bottoming out at the minimum wage. It isn't just about COVID, people come into work sick all the time and spread all sorts round, and it needs to stop as it's bad for everyone.

Moving this sort of thing to statutory policies makes creating and employing people in small businesses easier, too.

But who pays for that "insurance"? It doesn't help that funding of SSP was stopped a few years ago - at least before then, small businesses could claim back the SSP they paid to staff, but no longer (until Covid). SSP just became another business cost of employing people, hence why employers are more keen to take on people on a self employed basis. You can't keep loading employment costs on small businesses.

I'd be in favour of increasing employee NIC and self employed NIC based on ALL income in return for a better "insurance" element such as sick pay based on income. Employees are the ones who'd benefit so they need to be the ones who pay.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But who pays for that "insurance"?

The employee.

I'd be in favour of increasing employee NIC and self employed NIC based on ALL income in return for a better "insurance" element such as sick pay based on income. Employees are the ones who'd benefit so they need to be the ones who pay.

That's basically the idea I'm talking about

It would also enable the "gig economy", which I don't believe is a bad thing at all in and of itself, it just doesn't work well with the social constructs we have, and to me it's better to change those constructs rather than keep shouting about how bad the principle of it is.

 

[Mojo]

I was lucky in that, when I was an isolationist, we had adequate supplies in the house having just done our shopping a few days before, as it was back in March (so early on in the whole thing when it was still fresh in everyone’s minds). I had thought about the issue of not being able to leave home for a week and thus had (and still do) a reserve of fresh and tinned food, as well as bread in the freezer and two litres of UHT milk. Also I would say back then there was no shortage of people looking to fill their new-found free time with volunteering to help those shielding or self-isolating. With many people now going back to work, going out on daytrips, and thinking about the future it appears as if the people willing do do this has probably dried up, and I too would be quite reluctant to ask someone right now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was lucky in that, when I was an isolationist, we had adequate supplies in the house having just done our shopping a few days before, as it was back in March (so early on in the whole thing when it was still fresh in everyone’s minds). I had thought about the issue of not being able to leave home for a week and thus had (and still do) a reserve of fresh and tinned food, as well as bread in the freezer and two litres of UHT milk. Also I would say back then there was no shortage of people looking to fill their new-found free time with volunteering to help those shielding or self-isolating. With many people now going back to work, going out on daytrips, and thinking about the future it appears as if the people willing do do this has probably dried up, and I too would be quite reluctant to ask someone right now.

Though fortunately the delivery and click/collect[1] infrastructures have been somewhat beefed up, and the NHS Volunteer Responders have plenty of capacity - there are still people on that who have not received a single call.

By the way, did you know you can freeze fresh milk and it tastes like actual milk when defrosted? You can keep the UHT

[1] Obviously if you're isolating you can't pick it up, but it's much smaller an "ask" to a friend or relative to go and quickly grab a click and collect order than to spend over an hour queueing and shopping.

 

[Mojo]

By the way, did you know you can freeze fresh milk and it tastes like actual milk when defrosted? You can keep the UHT

I did, but I don’t know why I would do this given how much space it takes up in the freezer given that for most of the year (and especially in the run-up to Covid) given that I can barely fit actual stuff that needs freezing in it! The only advantage of doing this is that normal milk is cheaper than UHT, given that they both taste the same when chilled.

I still find, that most people cannot get on-line slots, and in any case, it is only the more expensive shops that offer this service, and further it is probably no good for ad-hoc purposes.

I’m not sure I’d feel comfortable asking someone to help me and I don’t think I’d be the only one in that boat, especially given how things have moved on.

 

[DelayRepay]

I was lucky in that, when I was an isolationist, we had adequate supplies in the house having just done our shopping a few days before, as it was back in March (so early on in the whole thing when it was still fresh in everyone’s minds).

Unfortunately, I did not have a lot in. I had a few days of 'normal' shopping left, and I had some tins and freezer items, but, it would have been boring meals. The other problem was when shopping, I hadn't really factored in lunch because I normally buy it at work. I developed my cough on a Saturday and had been planning to go shopping later that day. I hadn't really stockpiled beyond a couple of extra tins, as we were repeatedly asked not to do so.

I still find, that most people cannot get on-line slots, and in any case, it is only the more expensive shops that offer this service, and further it is probably no good for ad-hoc purposes.

Agree, and if you suddenly find yourself having to isolate, getting a slot several days in the future might not be ideal. And of course there are still some people who do not have internet access, and some in rural areas which don't have delivery services.

I’m not sure I’d feel comfortable asking someone to help me and I don’t think I’d be the only one in that boat, especially given how things have moved on.

Neither would I - None of my friends here are close friends that I would want to ask, my family and close friends live too far away. And I would feel very uncomfortable asking volunteers for help because in this area they all seem to be elderly people linked to the church. I wouldn't want to ask them to go and queue at the supermarket for me. I've now made a deal with someone from work who's in a similar position that we will both help each other, if one of us has to isolate.

I don't really know what the answer is, but there needs to be a better solution otherwise people who have been told to isolate will decide that they can 'risk' a trip to the shops - especially if they don't have any symptoms. We need to make isolating as easy as possible, otherwise people won't do it.

 

[An_Engineer]

My experience resonates heavily with DelayRepay's in that it was (and still is) the practical side that was the problem. I was on the shielding list (still am), so have been isolating for quite some time, and it was definitely the practical side that was the problem. I'd stocked up on supplies before hand, but not as much as I would have liked (I now regret not panic buying as that would have made life easier). Pretty much from the beginning it was impossible to get a delivery slot and it was also impossible to get a click and collect slot, so my supplies was purely from family and volunteers and that only kept me supplied with basics. As click and collect was not an option, supplies were limited to extras they bought while on their normal shopping (which was very appreciated, but kept me to a very basic diet). Was very frustrating, as I was perfectly willing to pay extra for proper delivery but it was just not available and the governments list of vulnerable people never fully got updated with supermarkets.

Things are now slightly better, but it has taken months to get to a stage where I can get deliveries. If someone is isolating for two weeks, I can definitely see them getting unlucky in not being able to get provisions properly and that is not a source of stress that you want at a time like that (especially as there may also be financial distress). So yes, more support in this area, and quick response support. No use in taking two weeks to get support as by then its already over.

I can't speak much to the financial side, as I am lucky in being able to work from home, but I can see companies treating people very differently depending on the exact isolation reason. I can well see companies not looking kindly on precautionary isolation (even if it is government recommended) so support there will probably be needed, though they will probably pay normal sick pay for those displaying symptoms. However with the difficulty getting tested I can see the possibility of staff members getting sick multiple times without ever getting a confirmation that it is COVID, yet government advice would be to isolate for 7 days each time (most bosses will not be pleased).

 

[6Gman]

I think I agree, there is a lack of support (practically and financially), and if we want people to isolate when they show symptoms or have been in contacted by Track and Trace, we need to make it as easy as possible.

My own experience of isolation (a cough during the early days) was that the problems were purely practical. I was already working from home, so no impact on my income (and I am lucky that my employer could commit to paying any staff who could not work in any case). The practical problem was getting shopping. No supermarket delivery slots, no family nearby or close friends nearby that I could ask, not particularly close to my neighbours (most are elderly anyway). It looked like the only option I had was to ask a local volunteer group for help, but in all my life I have never had to turn to charity. I also didn't want a random food parcel from the council (which, as far as I can tell, are really intended for people in poverty rather than people like me who have enough money but just couldn't go outside). Fortunately I was able to get a Morrisons food parcel delivered which wasn't great but did the job.

Looking at this from the other side - I've been shopping for neighbours since the start - I don't see it as charity but as mutual aid.

(You're right about the council food parcels. Told they contain spaghetti, rice and catering-size tins of baked beans! Odd combination for a pensioner couple!)

 

[DelayRepay]

(You're right about the council food parcels. Told they contain spaghetti, rice and catering-size tins of baked beans! Odd combination for a pensioner couple!)

My mum's neighbour (shielding) received a few of these parcels. She never asked for them and it took several weeks and multiple phone calls before she could stop them. During that time, she and her husband received a total of 12 litres of blackcurrant squash. Despite being in their 80s, they received boxes of children's cereal. I know they were put together in an emergency using the limited supplies available, but the recipients would have struggled to make decent meals from the contents. My mum was shopping for the neighbour so they didn't need these boxes, and about half of the contents ended up being taken to the food bank.

They are in a much better position now because they have access to supermarket deliveries.

 

[Scrotnig]

I'm sure I read somewhere that those who were self-isolating with no symptoms could, if there was absolutely no alternative, still arrange a click and collect supermarket order, as long as they collected by car (which I'm sure everyone does) and stayed in their car until the staff had brought the stuff out, the staff then step well away, and the person loads the food into the boot and drives off.

Certainly if the genuine alternative was starvation, you would have to take this approach. The government cannot mandate that you starve yourself.

I can't now find any reference to this anywhere though.

A click and collect is essentially the same as a delivery, except instead of coming to your house they come to the store's own car park and deliver it to your car!