Can train companies enforce any rules they like?

[Bletchleyite]

It can't be enforced if it's not enshrined in law.........

As private businesses, unless they are in breach of their contract, TOCs can enforce what they like, though only to the extent of refusing service (i.e. not allowing you to board, or asking you to leave, then using trespass law if you don't).

Witness Northern's "commuting only" policy.

 

[nedchester]

As private businesses, unless they are in breach of their contract, TOCs can enforce what they like, though only to the extent of refusing service (i.e. not allowing you to board, or asking you to leave, then using trespass law if you don't).

Witness Northern's "commuting only" policy.

Any link to Northern's commuting only policy please.

How do they know if you are commuting or not, remembering that you are under no obligation to explain the purpose of your journey?

 

[scotrail158713]

Any link to Northern's commuting only policy please.

How do they know if you are commuting or not, remembering that you are under no obligation to explain the purpose of your journey?

I think it’s this

Have you got it covered? Northern asks north west customers | Northern News

Face coverings will be mandatory on trains from Monday 15 June Coverings will help protect customers and staff from further spread of virus Some customers will be exceptions from the restrictions Only essential journeys should be made Essential journeys do not include shopping trips or days out...

media.northernrailway.co.uk

Have you got it covered? Northern asks north west customers

• Face coverings will be mandatory on trains from Monday 15 June
• Coverings will help protect customers and staff from further spread of virus
• Only essential journeys should be made
• Essential journeys do not include shopping trips or days out
• Capacity on Northern's services down by as much as 85 percent due to social distancing

Have you got it covered? That’s the question being asked by Northern as face coverings on trains become mandatory on Monday 15 June.
To help prevent the spread of COVID-19 as more people return to work, all customers and staff are being asked to wear face coverings when on trains and at stations.
Face coverings can include masks, reusable cloth coverings and a whole range of other options including scarves and bandanas – as long as the wearer’s nose and mouth are covered. This government directive is being implemented on all forms of public transport.
Chris Jackson, Regional Director at Northern, said: “We all need to do our bit to help the country recover from the coronavirus pandemic and to help prevent the further spread of the virus.
“Face coverings can reduce the risk to other people and by following the guidance we can all work to keep each other – customers and staff – as safe as possible.
“It also important that customers take their face coverings with them at the end of their journey. Even if masks are disposable, they shouldn’t be left on trains for cleaning staff to deal with.”
The government mandate will cover the majority of passengers, although there will be some exemptions for some staff and customers who are not able to wear a face covering for specific medical reasons.
Northern is asking all passengers to be mindful and respectful of this fact and customers should not challenge others who are not able to wear a covering.
As well as asking people to wear face coverings, Northern is also reminding its customers that public transport should only be used if no other options are available.
Non-essential shops are set to reopen on 15 June, but this doesn’t mean non-essential journeys should be made by train.
Chris added: “We completely understand that, with shops opening, people will want to get out and about, but they should only travel by train if their journey is essential, this does not include day trips and non-essential shopping.
“Social distancing measures are still in place on our trains which means capacity on our services is reduced by as much as 85 per cent. We need to keep the spaces on our trains for those who have no other option such as key workers and those who can’t work from home
“Those who do need to travel by train should follow a few simple steps; maintain social distancing where possible, wash hands before and after travel and, of course, wear a face covering.”
Customers should also leave extra time for travel and check times carefully as services may be subject to amendments and delays.
For full details check the Northern website or National Rail Enquiries.

 

[nedchester]

I think it’s this

Have you got it covered? Northern asks north west customers | Northern News

Face coverings will be mandatory on trains from Monday 15 June Coverings will help protect customers and staff from further spread of virus Some customers will be exceptions from the restrictions Only essential journeys should be made Essential journeys do not include shopping trips or days out...

media.northernrailway.co.uk

How do they decide what is or is not essential?

The reality is that people WILL use the train for shopping trips. Unrealistic and unenforceable.

 

[scotrail158713]

How do they decide what is or is not essential?

The reality is that people WILL use the train for shopping trips. Unrealistic and unenforceable.

Exactly - I think the general consensus on here is precisely that. It’s wrong be told “the shops are open, let’s all help restart the economy - but only if you drive”.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any link to Northern's commuting only policy please.

It was on their Twitter but I can't find it now.

 

[nedchester]

Exactly - I think the general consensus on here is precisely that. It’s wrong be told “the shops are open, let’s all help restart the economy - but only if you drive”.

I must admit I'm thinking of having a trip out next week or the week after to test these 'policies'.....

 

[scotrail158713]

I must admit I'm thinking of having a trip out next week or the week after to test these 'policies'.....

Go for it I say - you’re unlikely to have any issues.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

With the obvious exception of Northern, going by the above posts, most - including Network Rail - are now saying in their tweets "if you have to travel by train" or "if you have no alternative" so that does look a bit like Northern are trying to hold out for longer...?

 

[yorkie]

As private businesses, unless they are in breach of their contract, TOCs can enforce what they like, though only to the extent of refusing service (i.e. not allowing you to board, or asking you to leave, then using trespass law if you don't).

Witness Northern's "commuting only" policy.

No, they cannot apply any rules they like, if those rules are contrary to the contract (National Rail Conditions of Travel), the Ticketing Settlement Agreement, their franchise agreement, or any applicable laws (including contract and consumer laws).

I don't think Northern have a 'commuters only' policy but it would not be lawful to try to enforce that.

See:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...cific-groups-of-people-e-g-keyworkers.204858/

What travel is currently allowed by the legislation?

Sorry if this is obvious, but while I appreciate that getting people to and from work is the main reason for using public transport, I was wondering whether my situation would be covered... I have a small flat in Southport but have been grounded in my main Hereford home since mid-March, and...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Bikeman78]

How do they decide what is or is not essential?

The reality is that people WILL use the train for shopping trips. Unrealistic and unenforceable.

Exactly. Someone travels in to Manchester from Daisy Hill. On the way back they get to the barriers with shopping in hand. Is Northern seriously proposing that they cannot travel home?

 

[BJames]

I think it’s this

Have you got it covered? Northern asks north west customers | Northern News

Face coverings will be mandatory on trains from Monday 15 June Coverings will help protect customers and staff from further spread of virus Some customers will be exceptions from the restrictions Only essential journeys should be made Essential journeys do not include shopping trips or days out...

media.northernrailway.co.uk

They're not allowed to just say that you can't use their trains for shopping trips or days out from the 15th June, because that's when non essential shopping becomes "lawful" again. In reality I suspect no member of staff will attempt to enforce this, it will cause far too much aggravation for literally no reason.

If anyone comes into any difficulties from Northern in this manner from Monday (or any TOC really) I'd be interested to hear about it on this thread. I'd be interested to hear from any TOC's staff on here about what their company has told them regarding non-essential travel from Monday. There really needs to be consistency across the board - imagine Greater Anglia said that non-essential travel is allowed but EMR say it's not - people wanting to travel from Norwich to Ely will just make sure they get the GA service! It would be ridiculous to try and enforce anything like this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're not allowed to just say that you can't use their trains for shopping trips or days out from the 15th June, because that's when non essential shopping becomes "lawful" again.

Well, it appears they are doing exactly that.

They surely can't be breaching anything, as the Government would penalise them?

 

[mmh]

Well, it appears they are doing exactly that.

They surely can't be breaching anything, as the Government would penalise them?

Is there any evidence this is actually happening? By evidence, I mean people refused travel, not "please don't travel if you don't need to" guidance. We're given guidance on all kinds of things, right down to how many vegetables to eat.

I'm aware of incidences of the BTP not allowing travel in Wales, but I've seen no reports from England.

 

[BJames]

Well, it appears they are doing exactly that.

They surely can't be breaching anything, as the Government would penalise them?

This is from East Midlands Railway's website (first one I found, haven't looked at the others, https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/covid-19):

What can you do?
Continue to follow the Government advice. Consider all other forms of transport before using public transport.

You should also carefully consider if your journey is essential and if you can, stay local. This will help keep the transport network running and allow people who need to make essential journeys to travel.

If you need to travel, you can help by following these simple rules:

1) Do not travel if you have any Coronavirus Symptoms or are feeling unwell. Refer to the NHS latest advice on symptoms here.


2) Keep your distance from other customers, our staff and wear a face covering.

Consider driving, cycling, walking etc and consider if your journey is essential. Bit more accurate than Northern but still forcing people to consider the essential/non-essential. The point of face coverings being compulsory from next week is that more people will be travelling because more things are going to open, so I can't understand why Northern's advice is saying otherwise. Hopefully people living on their network and using them for travel from next week can talk about it on the forum. I expect to see little enforcement but the ambiguity of the government's messaging is, I'm sure, not helping people to know what they are and aren't allowed to do.

 

[Mojo]

I'm aware of incidences of the BTP not allowing travel in Wales, but I've seen no reports from England.

Certainly once the lockdown was eased in the UK in Mid-May, BTP officers outside of Scotland were instructed not to approach customers and ask why they were travelling, or to deny travel for any reason other than that ordinarily allowed such as poor behaviour or lack of fitness to travel.

 

[317 forever]

This is from East Midlands Railway's website (first one I found, haven't looked at the others, https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/covid-19):

Consider driving, cycling, walking etc and consider if your journey is essential. Bit more accurate than Northern but still forcing people to consider the essential/non-essential. The point of face coverings being compulsory from next week is that more people will be travelling because more things are going to open, so I can't understand why Northern's advice is saying otherwise. Hopefully people living on their network and using them for travel from next week can talk about it on the forum. I expect to see little enforcement but the ambiguity of the government's messaging is, I'm sure, not helping people to know what they are and aren't allowed to do.

From what I can tell and indeed points 1 and 2 which you have put in bold, I believe it is mandatory that we do not travel if unwell, and that we keep a distance from other people wherever possible. Also from Monday, it is mandatory that we wear face coverings while travelling in England.

I believe that avoiding peak hours and avoiding leisure travel are advisory but not mandatory.

 

[route101]

Certainly once the lockdown was eased in the UK in Mid-May, BTP officers outside of Scotland were instructed not to approach customers and ask why they were travelling, or to deny travel for any reason other than that ordinarily allowed such as poor behaviour or lack of fitness to travel.

I wonder if they are still asking people in Scotland , i was at Glasgow Central recently and didnt see any police questioning anybody

 

[Butts]

I wonder if they are still asking people in Scotland , i was at Glasgow Central recently and didnt see any police questioning anybody

No one has ever asked me and I have been travelling for the whole lock down period between Edinburgh and Falkirk on empty trains.

Forget bumping into BTP ,you don't even see The Guards most of the time.

Having said that on my way in Today I saw two BTP Officers at Haymarket - even wearing masks !!

 

[island]

I suppose any private business has the right to refuse service to a customer for any reason that is not discriminatory, though in the case of train operating companies if someone already holds a ticket, what next? Do they become entitled to a refund?

 

[yorkie]

I suppose any private business has the right to refuse service to a customer for any reason that is not discriminatory, though in the case of train operating companies if someone already holds a ticket, what next? Do they become entitled to a refund?

• The company would still be obliged to convey the customer to their destination. If they refuse to do so by train they would need to provide alternative means of transport. The company would also be liable to compensate in the event of a delay to the customers journey.
• Consumer law also applies to rail journeys; the relevant train company/companies are required to provide the service with "reasonable care and skill"; reneging on a contract to provide service for no valid reason would be a breach of consumer law.
• Train companies are bound by the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) and, even more importantly, the Ticketing Settlement Agreement (TSA); compliance with these is a franchise commitment for all franchised TOCs (and any open access operators who participate in National Rail ticketing are also bound by them). The proposals in the opening post of this thread would not be compliant with the NRCoT or TSA
• Train companies are bound by the wishes of the DfT (especially at the current time!); the DfT have stipulated there is no restriction to 'key workers' or commuting. The matter of misleading signs on London Underground was brought to the attention of the DfT and one of the conditions for TfL's bailout was the removal of all such signs from their network. If any National Rail TOCs have misleading signs or notices, these should be removed. If any TOC refuses to do so, this matter can be escalated and should be investigated.