Should all bus lanes be full-time?

[Bletchleyite]

From https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-for-road-vehicles.205196/page-2#post-4613410

I meant that use of the available (and permissible) space by all vehicles allows for a less stressful experience. If I had been advocating undertaking of those ignoramuses who are either unable to tell the time (or so paranoid that they think they'll get a FPN for using a bus lane outside the hours of operation) then I wouldn't have mentioned the tailback that such people create.

To be honest I'd make all bus lanes full-time unless needed for part-time parking or loading bays. Part-time ones cause danger from the misunderstanding/paranoia you suggest, and pretty much by definition if it's quiet you don't need them for cars, and if it's busy you do need them for buses.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I would say yes, almost definitely, that is a really good idea.

Your logic is correct that, if it's quiet then they are not needed so there's no reason for cars to be using them - so enforcing them at quiet times generally would not disrupt other traffic. The limited times and accompanying signs stating the times of operation that are so typical currently distract drivers attention since the driver has to do some additional mental processing to figure out whether or not he/she is currently allowed to use the bus lanes. It also invites unscrupulous drivers to sneak into them when they are in use on the basis that 'sorry, I misread the time'. On the other hand, quite a few other drivers (including, usually, me), tend to avoid using them even outside the hours of operation because - no need to if the traffic is free-flowing, and there's so much else to think about when driving that I don't want to have to divert my attention to figuring out if it's allowed to use a bus lane that I don't actually need. And of course, it's not always possible to predict exactly when congestion occurs and therefore at what times on what days the bus lanes are therefore needed to keep bus schedules reliable.

In short, making all bus lanes 24-hours (unless there are specific reasons for an exception in certain individual places) would make them easier to enforce and less confusing, with very little in the way of downside.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

No they shouldn't.
There are plenty of places where they're only needed in the peak, so why impose a restriction that isn't needed, just to make everything neat and ordered? If people simply paid attention to signage it wouldn't be a problem.

All cars have clocks in them now, so it should take less than a second to know if you're allowed in the lane or not. If that's too taxing then quite frankly you shouldn't be allowed behind the wheel.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think it's also worth remembering that drivers are not the only road users. Many bus lanes are in urban areas where the majority of people in the vicinity are in fact... pedestrians! Many of those pedestrians will not be able to drive, and so won't necessarily understand the highway code and the meaning of road signs to the level that is expected of drivers. Not only that, but the bus lane signs are normally positioned so that they are easily visible to oncoming drivers - they are not positioned with the aim of being easily seen by pedestrians wandering around the area - many pedestrians are more likely to notice only the red surfacing that typically indicates the bus lane, not the signs at the start of the lane showing the operation times - and will therefore not be expecting cars to be coming along the bus lanes in the middle of - say - the lunch hour.

I'd say that, by itself, that's a minor issue, it's not an absolute deal-breaker. But it does give an additional reason for making bus lanes 24-hours.

 

[edwin_m]

I'd say make them all 24hr and if necessary allow parking in them at quieter times or in the non-peak direction. As mentioned there is confusion if drivers don't notice the sign, and some bus lanes change their hours part way along. Even with parked cars taking some of its width the bus lane provides some protection for cyclists too.

 

[cnjb8]

Yes, but where it's needed. For instance, the bus lane out of Kimberley toward Nottingham is definitely needed at peak times. But, it's certainly not needed at non peak times.

 

[PeterC]

It is because of hours changing part way that people stay out of them in London. Plus of course the need to pull out when you reach parked cars or a bus.

 

[markymark2000]

I think even the part time bus lanes act as full time bus lanes because the majority don't want to risk being fined for being in a bus lane. You could put a bus lane up and have it so it's only active between 2am and 2.15am on a Thursday and the lane wouldn't be used by 90% of vehicles outside of this time.

Bus lanes, even those with low operational hours, still help bus priority in non operational hours.

 

[LMS 4F]

I think even the part time bus lanes act as full time bus lanes because the majority don't want to risk being fined for being in a bus lane. You could put a bus lane up and have it so it's only active between 2am and 2.15am on a Thursday and the lane wouldn't be used by 90% of vehicles outside of this time.

Bus lanes, even those with low operational hours, still help bus priority in non operational hours.

This is my experience with the Bus Lane on Doncaster Road, Wakefield. It is only effective from 4pm to 6.30pm yet when I use it at other times I am always the only vehicle using it. At one end some vehicles park outside some local shops who would be affected if it became full time but the greatest number of vehicles avoid it.
It may have something to do with the fact that the sign that says Bus Lane is much larger than the one with the times on which is on the same pole lower down

 

[edwin_m]

Yes, but where it's needed. For instance, the bus lane out of Kimberley toward Nottingham is definitely needed at peak times. But, it's certainly not needed at non peak times.

But at non peak times the road ought to have enough capacity for other traffic to flow freely without using the bus lane. So why make the bus lane available at those times?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think it might be Edinburgh (feel free to correct me if it's somewhere else) where there's a 7/7/7 policy - bus lanes are 0700-1900, 7 days a week. That would be better - simple to remember/enforce and can allow car parking in the evening?

 

[edwin_m]

I think it might be Edinburgh (feel free to correct me if it's somewhere else) where there's a 7/7/7 policy - bus lanes are 0700-1900, 7 days a week. That would be better - simple to remember/enforce and can allow car parking in the evening?

I don't see why the bus lanes couldn't just be 24/7 with parking allowed in them at certain times when traffic isn't bad enough to stop the bus pulling out into the general lane. That would avoid the confusion caused by bus lanes in different places having different times of operation.

 

[Pat1105]

The thing is, if local authorities made bus lanes full time, how would they make their money from bus lane cameras?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't see why the bus lanes couldn't just be 24/7 with parking allowed in them at certain times when traffic isn't bad enough to stop the bus pulling out into the general lane. That would avoid the confusion caused by bus lanes in different places having different times of operation.

Isn’t a bus lane with parking allowed at certain times then no longer a 24 hr bus lane?

 

[edwin_m]

Isn’t a bus lane with parking allowed at certain times then no longer a 24 hr bus lane?

I don't see why it should be. Short deviations into bus lanes are allowed to pass right turning traffic etc, so it ought to be possible to allow exemptions for pulling into and out of parking spaces within the hours parking is allowed.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't see why it should be. Short deviations into bus lanes are allowed to pass right turning traffic etc, so it ought to be possible to allow exemptions for pulling into and out of parking spaces within the hours parking is allowed.

Sorry but I’m confused. Do you mean car parking to the left of the bus lane or within the footprint of the bus lane? I thought you meant the latter as Bristol has a number of instances where car parking is allowed within the actual bus lane during off peak.

 

[edwin_m]

Sorry but I’m confused. Do you mean car parking to the left of the bus lane or within the footprint of the bus lane? I thought you meant the latter as Bristol has a number of instances where car parking is allowed within the actual bus lane during off peak.

I meant the latter. The fact Bristol does it shows there are no regulations that forbid it, but many other places have a part-time bus lane and a parking restriction that limits parking to the same hours the bus lane isn't in operation. My suggestion is that all bus lanes should be 24hr, with part-time parking within them where and when appropriate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I meant the latter. The fact Bristol does it shows there are no regulations that forbid it, but many other places have a part-time bus lane and a parking restriction that limits parking to the same hours the bus lane isn't in operation. My suggestion is that all bus lanes should be 24hr, with part-time parking within them where and when appropriate.

That would make sense, with the law allowing a car to pass through them in the following circumstances only (which would be obvious on any photo taken by an enforcement camera):
- To access a property with a dropped kerb
- To turn into a side road (though there's normally a marked gap for this)
- To access a parking or loading bay, where such a bay is within its posted hours of operation
- To pass an obstruction in the running lane, where such obstruction is not caused by the normal flow of traffic (for example, an accident or a downed tree)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That would make sense, with the law allowing a car to pass through them in the following circumstances only (which would be obvious on any photo taken by an enforcement camera):
- To access a property with a dropped kerb
- To turn into a side road (though there's normally a marked gap for this)
- To access a parking or loading bay, where such a bay is within its posted hours of operation
- To pass an obstruction in the running lane, where such obstruction is not caused by the normal flow of traffic (for example, an accident or a downed tree)

Those exemptions make perfect sense.

I was referring to this sort of arrangement https://www.google.com/maps/@51.446...4!1sKkNAECYCXyx_KbdnaSrfEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 If a bus lane is blocked by a series of parked cars, then doesn't it cease to be a bus lane?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That would make sense, with the law allowing a car to pass through them in the following circumstances only (which would be obvious on any photo taken by an enforcement camera):
- To access a property with a dropped kerb
- To turn into a side road (though there's normally a marked gap for this)
- To access a parking or loading bay, where such a bay is within its posted hours of operation
- To pass an obstruction in the running lane, where such obstruction is not caused by the normal flow of traffic (for example, an accident or a downed tree)

That makes sense.

Possibly also add a restriction similar to the restriction at junctions with cross-hatching: That even in the above circumstances, you must not enter the bus lane until your route past the obstruction/to the location you are trying to access is clear.

 

[Statto]

Most town/cities are not like London were bus lanes are needed most of the day, most places bus lanes are only needed in the peaks, to the centre of town/city morning & from the centre of town/city in the evening

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most town/cities are not like London were bus lanes are needed most of the day, most places bus lanes are only needed in the peaks, to the centre of town/city morning & from the centre of town/city in the evening

But then, as I said above, they aren't needed for cars then either because it's not busy. So keep it simple.

If it is busy, then they become needed for buses.

 

[ashkeba]

Even with parked cars taking some of its width the bus lane provides some protection for cyclists too.

If cars are parked in it, cyclists have to make the hazardous move out into the adjacent lane. Better to ban parking in them 24 7 too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If cars are parked in it, cyclists have to make the hazardous move out into the adjacent lane. Better to ban parking in them 24 7 too.

Cyclists and buses are not very compatible anyway (one typically proceeds continuously at about 10-15mph, one stop-starts with a higher top speed, so you get a lot of repeated overtakes). Cycles are normally allowed in them as it would be dangerous or obstructive to do otherwise, but even better is to have a proper, separate Dutch style cycle lane, ideally one that runs round the back of any bus stops.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Cyclists and buses are not very compatible anyway (one typically proceeds continuously at about 10-15mph, one stop-starts with a higher top speed, so you get a lot of repeated overtakes). Cycles are normally allowed in them as it would be dangerous or obstructive to do otherwise, but even better is to have a proper, separate Dutch style cycle lane, ideally one that runs round the back of any bus stops.

It would certainly be better if segregated bike lanes could be provided but often, the footprint just isn't available and even if it is, we fail to be able to build it.

As I said before, I'd be happy to see a 7 day, 12 hour 0700-1900 rule for bus lanes (subject to the exemptions mentioned) but no parking in bus lanes otherwise it would seem that a bus lane blocked with parked cars in it, really isn't a bus lane.

 

[edwin_m]

If cars are parked in it, cyclists have to make the hazardous move out into the adjacent lane. Better to ban parking in them 24 7 too.

Ideally yes, but there are some places that just won't work. Many bus routes are lined with small or medium houses which have no off-street parking of their own or any back street alternative. And many smaller shops have to take deliveries via the front.

A bus lane is wider than a parked car so there is still some room for cyclists to pass, though I agree there is risk from doors being opened.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Ideally yes, but there are some places that just won't work. Many bus routes are lined with small or medium houses which have no off-street parking of their own or any back street alternative. And many smaller shops have to take deliveries via the front.

Indeed, and hence a 10/12 hour bus lane is perhaps more attractive. Between 0800-1800, there's no parking in the bus lane; it might even make some people decide that they don't need a car if a) there's a reliable bus service and b) the hassle of parking it is greater than the benefit. However, you can park your car overnight no problem. It will create a challenge for shop owners to get deliveries out of these times though.

 

[Mikey C]

But then, as I said above, they aren't needed for cars then either because it's not busy. So keep it simple.

If it is busy, then they become needed for buses.

a) they are still busy, just not as busy
b) it would be pointless restricting traffic lanes for buses outside peak hours, when far fewer people are using the bus or NEED to use the bus. It's not just private cars, it's all the delivery vans and lorries which need to use the roads

If drivers are too stupid to notice that the bus lane only operates at certain hours, then it's great news for those of us who can read

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, and hence a 10/12 hour bus lane is perhaps more attractive. Between 0800-1800, there's no parking in the bus lane; it might even make some people decide that they don't need a car if a) there's a reliable bus service and b) the hassle of parking it is greater than the benefit. However, you can park your car overnight no problem. It will create a challenge for shop owners to get deliveries out of these times though.

One option for this, where there's room, is to create loading-only bays inside of the bus lane. In very busy bus lanes I'd similarly like to see "taxi stops" - there are quite a few areas of London where this would be sensible. They could serve both purposes in some places.

 

[ashkeba]

Ideally yes, but there are some places that just won't work. Many bus routes are lined with small or medium houses which have no off-street parking of their own or any back street alternative. And many smaller shops have to take deliveries via the front.

A bus lane is wider than a parked car so there is still some room for cyclists to pass, though I agree there is risk from doors being opened.

If there is a risk from doors, that is not a place anyone should cycle!

Deliveries OK in general, but why punish bus riders and cyclists to enable people to save money on car parking? As is often said, I may not store other private property blocking part of the road and have to get permits to park skips during construction work, so why do cars get special permission to narrow roads?