Which company would you think will takeover the Liverpool-Nottingham Section of EMR Regional's Liverpool-Manchester-Nottingham-Norwich Route?

[Amstel]

As a user of this service (well Manchester to Sheffield) I think if Transpennine took
over and ran double 185s we could at last have a decent South Pennine route fulfilling
missing gaps in the region's services.
TPE running the core Manchester to Sheffield route with double 185s could have half hourly services, one from Liverpool to Nottingham and Derby and one starting from Piccadilly go to Cleethorpes and Hull.
Benefits are having 12 coaches an hour Manchester to Sheffield, a second service each hour from Hull to Manchester and providing a desperately needed connection from Manchester to Derby (two cities 50 miles apart with poor road connections and no rail service).
One of the services could call at Hazel Grove and Dore to allow people to travel from either end without having to go into the city first.

 

[Llandudno]

I agree that one of the fast trains per hour should call at Hazel Grove and the other fast train per hour should call at Dore (when the second platform is built)

This should result in extra patronage, if you are a car owner and live to the south of Stockport would you drive the wrong way in rush hour traffic to Stockport to catch an Eastbound train or just drive for the whole journey

Similarly if you live in south Sheffield would you bother to drive into congested Central Sheffield to catch a Westbound train or just drive for the whole journey?

 

[Killingworth]

As a user of this service (well Manchester to Sheffield) I think if Transpennine took
over and ran double 185s we could at last have a decent South Pennine route fulfilling
missing gaps in the region's services.
TPE running the core Manchester to Sheffield route with double 185s could have half hourly services, one from Liverpool to Nottingham and Derby and one starting from Piccadilly go to Cleethorpes and Hull.
Benefits are having 12 coaches an hour Manchester to Sheffield, a second service each hour from Hull to Manchester and providing a desperately needed connection from Manchester to Derby (two cities 50 miles apart with poor road connections and no rail service).
One of the services could call at Hazel Grove and Dore to allow people to travel from either end without having to go into the city first.

TPE taking over with double 185s is probably going to happen, from Liverpool to Nottingham. The extra capacity from 4 car 158s (often cut to 2) will be welcome on the Liverpool - Sheffield sections, not so much needed normally to Nottingham (although with Northern currently not operating the other half of that leg there may be).

On extra stops between Manchester and Sheffield you run up against the awful puncuality record of the current EMR service, for reasons largely beyond their control. The extra power and speed from 185s may help to improve that record, as will loading thanks to the door layout when at Piccadilly 13/14 and elsewhere.

If you add in extra stops you put pressure back onto the timetable performance. Chinley and Hope would want to jump onto that idea as well. I am, of course, biased as a Dore user, but have to accept that until the Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme is completed there is very limited scope for extra stops. I'm tempted to digress into what the extra service supposed to start after 2023 might do, like providing a semi-fast with some of the suggested extra stops and end destinations - but that's probably for the HVCIS thread.

I'd have thought a TPE 5 coach unit would be a better proposition, but I'm sure they can see that themselves. Modest capacity uplift from now and easier to spread the load down the train, allowing crew and trolley better access.

For now there's no capacity issue on most Manchester - Sheffield services provided by any of the 3 TOCs; you can choose your own carriage to share with no more than 2 or 3 others even at peak times.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

TPE taking over with double 185s is probably going to happen, from Livepool to Nottingham. The extra capacity from 4 car 158s (often cut to 2) will be welcome on the Liverpool - Sheffield sections, not so much needed normally to Nottingham (although with Northern currently not operating the other half of that leg there may be).

On extra stops between Manchester and Sheffield you run up against the awful puncuality record of the current EMR service, for reasons largely beyond their control. The extra power and speed from 185s may help to improve that record, as will loading thanks to the door layout when at Piccadilly 13/14 and elsewhere.

If you add in extra stops you put pressure back onto the timetable performance. Chinley and Hope would want to jump onto that idea as well. I am, of course, biased as a Dore user, but have to accept that until the Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme is completed there is very limited scope for extra stops. I'm tempted to digress into what the extra service supposed to start after 2023 might do, like providing a semi-fast with some of the suggested extra stops and end destinations - but that's probably for the HVCIS thread.

I'd have thought a TPE 5 coach unit would be a better proposition, but I'm sure they can see that themselves. Modest capacity uplift from now and easier to spread the load down the train, allowing crew and trolley better access.

For now there's no capacity issue on most Manchester - Sheffield services provided by any of the 3 TOCs; you can choose your own carriage to share with no more than 2 or 3 others even at peak times.

I've been on a TPE service between Manchester and Sheffield on a 3-coach service and sometimes it is packed

 

[py_megapixel]

For now there's no capacity issue on most Manchester - Sheffield services provided by any of the 3 TOCs; you can choose your own carriage to share with no more than 2 or 3 others even at peak times.

There absolutely is a capacity issue. The NT stoppers from Piccadilly are usually OK (but slow). However, the TPE and EMR services frequently leave Stockport with passengers absolutely packed in, to the same levels as peak time on the Central Line, with no space to do anything. Sometimes the guard has difficulty getting to the door controls.

 

[Killingworth]

I've been on a TPE service between Manchester and Sheffield on a 3-coach service and sometimes it is packed

The 7.13 from Dore for Manchester was too packed for all to board if a 3 arrived (100+ possibly waiting) as it sometimes did until recently. The 8.14 wasn't much better. I've had to stand several times as unable to get to my reserved seat.

Problems of the past now we're getting 6 coach trains and nobody is travelling!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

There absolutely is a capacity issue. The NT stoppers from Piccadilly are usually OK (but slow). However, the TPE and EMR services frequently leave Stockport with passengers absolutely packed in, to the same levels as peak time on the Central Line, with no space to do anything. Sometimes the guard has difficulty getting to the door controls.

Yes they do, the COVID-19 pandemic means in the short term (until 2021 at least) passengers are likely to remain low but they will in time recover.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regarding 5-car sets I've heard using the Mk5 LHCS as a possibility, which makes sense as almost none of the route is electrified.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Regarding 5-car sets I've heard using the Mk5 LHCS as a possibility, which makes sense as almost none of the route is electrified.

I would hope they’d be more sensible. In a previous post I suggested ditching Airport - Sheffield direct services (it is undoubtedly quicker and easier to drive, or franchise commit a connecting half-hourly Stockport to Airport express bus).

I would say get TransPennine to operate a standard, half-hourly 6 car express from Lime Street via Warrington Central and Piccadilly to Stockport and Sheffield (even then using Slade Lane and Castlefield at exactly the same time for maximum decent pathing, it’s 15 minutes with padding), and detach/ attach one unit at Sheffield. 3 car forward to Nottingham or Cleethorpes, good use of capacity on the busiest sections, and you can even project a unit forward somewhere else if desired.

 

[Bletchleyite]

franchise commit a connecting half-hourly Stockport to Airport express bus

There already is one and has been for well over 20 years, hourly rather than half-hourly, though, and it does stop outside the station on the A6 (the stop is "Stockport Grand Central" which is slightly unhelpfully named in that regard).

Skyline 199 - Skyline - Buxton - Chapel - Whaley Bridge - Stockport - Airport – High Peak – bustimes.org

 

[4-SUB 4732]

There already is one and has been for well over 20 years, hourly rather than half-hourly, though, and it does stop outside the station on the A6 (the stop is "Stockport Grand Central" which is slightly unhelpfully named in that regard).

Skyline 199 - Skyline - Buxton - Chapel - Whaley Bridge - Stockport - Airport – High Peak – bustimes.org

I did mean more a ‘shown in NRE As a TPE’ bus, departing every 30 mins and connecting with / onto trains to/from Sheffield, which would be more helpful and valid on an appropriate ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I did mean more a ‘shown in NRE As a TPE’ bus, departing every 30 mins and connecting with / onto trains to/from Sheffield, which would be more helpful and valid on an appropriate ticket.

It could I suppose be put in the timetable and I'd certainly see value in that. Ticketing wise Manchester (Stockport - it's all one zone) PlusBus covers it, though buying a rail ticket to Stockport and paying contactless on the bus is easy enough, the ease of doing this reduces the need for through ticketing.

 

[Llandudno]

I've been on a TPE service between Manchester and Sheffield on a 3-coach service and sometimes it is packed

More likely ‘sometimes’ it’s NOT packed!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

More likely ‘sometimes’ it’s NOT packed!

ive been on it a few times and it is (pre-covid)

 

[Killingworth]

More likely ‘sometimes’ it’s NOT packed!

Depends on time of day and day of week Early mornings and evenings they'd only be packed if there'd been some sort of incident delaying or cancelling trains. Now they're mostly 6 coaches at peak times, and much of the rest of the day as well, it's all historic and likely to be many months before packed trains are a problem again Managing taped off seats will be another story and different definitions of congested and packed may emerge.

 

[py_megapixel]

Now they're mostly 6 coaches at peak times

Out of interest does anyone happen to know why the rear 3 coaches detach at Piccadilly on Manchester Aiport services? Platforms at the airport can accommodate 6 cars surely?

 

[Killingworth]

Out of interest does anyone happen to know why the rear 3 coaches detach at Piccadilly on Manchester Aiport services? Platforms at the airport can accommodate 6 cars surely?

They can, but TPE aren't the only operators to run to the to airport and there isn't room for them all at once. 2 trains are often sharing platforms while there's currently more available space at Piccadilly to hold stock. It doesn't need all 6 to the airport for capacity.

 

[JonathanH]

I would hope they’d be more sensible. In a previous post I suggested ditching Airport - Sheffield direct services (it is undoubtedly quicker and easier to drive, or franchise commit a connecting half-hourly Stockport to Airport express bus).

It is quicker and easier to drive on loads of rail journeys that continue to run - some people want to go by train.

 

[Bevan Price]

TPE taking over with double 185s is probably going to happen, from Liverpool to Nottingham. The extra capacity from 4 car 158s (often cut to 2) will be welcome on the Liverpool - Sheffield sections, not so much needed normally to Nottingham (although with Northern currently not operating the other half of that leg there may be).

On extra stops between Manchester and Sheffield you run up against the awful puncuality record of the current EMR service, for reasons largely beyond their control. The extra power and speed from 185s may help to improve that record, as will loading thanks to the door layout when at Piccadilly 13/14 and elsewhere.

Class 185 cannot take full advantage of its higher power on the Hope Valley line - they are too heavy, so are not allowed to run at the higher "Sprinter" speed limits.

And as I have commented before, replacing 4 coach 158s by 6 coach 185s will create a big increase in running costs (Fuel, etc.), and probably an increase in track access fees. I realise that transfer of services to TPE now seems almost inevitable, but I think the service remaining with EMR would be the best option at present.

 

[py_megapixel]

Class 185 cannot take full advantage of its higher power on the Hope Valley line - they are too heavy, so are not allowed to run at the higher "Sprinter" speed limits.

And as I have commented before, replacing 4 coach 158s by 6 coach 185s will create a big increase in running costs (Fuel, etc.), and probably an increase in track access fees. I realise that transfer of services to TPE now seems almost inevitable, but I think the service remaining with EMR would be the best option at present.

What do you propose should be done about the chronic overcrowding then, with passengers pushed up against each other or unable to board, and conductors having difficulty doing their job? The current provision simply isn't adequate for non-lockdown passenger numbers. Admittedly I am still in favour of a through service to Norwich but even then we would need significantly more capacity than currently.

 

[Ianno87]

Please no, I've managed to avoid CAF stock so far and I'd like to keep it that way.

If you've managed to avoid them, how do you know what they're like....?

331s, for the record, are superb.

 

[Killingworth]

What do you propose should be done about the chronic overcrowding then, with passengers pushed up against each other or unable to board, and conductors having difficulty doing their job? The current provision simply isn't adequate for non-lockdown passenger numbers. Admittedly I am still in favour of a through service to Norwich but even then we would need significantly more capacity than currently.

Sorry, but you're a few months out of date. What has been done on the Hope Valley line is that TPE have been operating mostly 6 coach trains since March and Northern 4 coach trains since May. EMR are sending out 4 on most peak hour services and all 3 TOCs are running mostly to time. Provision should have been adequate for normal loads and is currently very generous.

Once TPE (we're all but assuming) take over Liverpool-Norwich with double 185s there should be ample capacity for normal 2019 loads, although it will probably take a couple of years, maybe more, to recover those now lost to rail.

What causes some of the most severe overcrowding is when an EMR service is half an hour or more late through Castlefield and its load has moved over to the TPE Cleethorpes service. Similarly if a TPE is late or missing and all move to EMR. When an EMR is announced to be going round the Dore curve to miss out Dore and Sheffield even more will move over to the TPE or Northern services. That's largely outside any TOC's ability to resolve at short notice.

Bevan Price said: Class 185 cannot take full advantage of its higher power on the Hope Valley line - they are too heavy, so are not allowed to run at the higher "Sprinter" speed limits.

It can't take advantage of the top speeds but it does take advantage of acceleration. TPE 185 services are usually timed to do Sheffield-Manchester journeys about 2 or 3 minutes quicker than an EMR 158 (although they're often hampered by having a slower 156 or 153 in the formation) and they may have better recovery capacity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you've managed to avoid them, how do you know what they're like....?

331s, for the record, are superb.

I wouldn't go that far, but they're decent. 397s are even better - basically, think of an aircon Mk2 and bring it up to date (or the "Class 344" I've long wished existed).

Anyway, neither of those will operate this service Mk5s, which might, are quite good, even if the window alignment is off in Standard, and First Class is in my view genuinely special and worth paying for.

 

[Nym]

If you've managed to avoid them, how do you know what they're like....?

331s, for the record, are superb.

I have managed to escape riding on them, doesn't mean I could escape needing to deal with them.

 

[D365]

I would hope they’d be more sensible. In a previous post I suggested ditching Airport - Sheffield direct services (it is undoubtedly quicker and easier to drive, or franchise commit a connecting half-hourly Stockport to Airport express bus).

I'd hope that this isn't a serious proposal. The direct airport service is hugely convenient for those living within the city, especially where you don't (or would prefer not to) drive.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I'd hope that this isn't a serious proposal. The direct airport service is hugely convenient for those living within the city, especially where you don't (or would prefer not to) drive.

And for the likely sub-500 people who travel from Sheffield City Centre to the Airport every day, of which you are talking about 19 trains with capacity for more than 5,000 people, you have to ask if a direct hourly Airport link is seriously that valid. You could go to Piccadilly and change (with a current time penalty of 5 minutes in all) or you could bail out at Stockport, save a 32 minute detour into and out of Piccadilly and potentially be at the Airport at the same time. Amazingly, you've also made the entire North mostly better off with 6-car trains running half-hourly on a standard path between Liverpool, Warrington, Manchester, Stockport and Sheffield.

 

[Ianno87]

And for the likely sub-500 people who travel from Sheffield City Centre to the Airport every day, of which you are talking about 19 trains with capacity for more than 5,000 people, you have to ask if a direct hourly Airport link is seriously that valid. You could go to Piccadilly and change (with a current time penalty of 5 minutes in all) or you could bail out at Stockport, save a 32 minute detour into and out of Piccadilly and potentially be at the Airport at the same time. Amazingly, you've also made the entire North mostly better off with 6-car trains running half-hourly on a standard path between Liverpool, Warrington, Manchester, Stockport and Sheffield.

And a mere cross-platform change at Piccadilly too...

 

[py_megapixel]

And a mere cross-platform change at Piccadilly too...

Or a pretty frequent airport bus from either Piccadilly Gardens or Stockport bus station

 

[Ianno87]

Or a pretty frequent airport bus from either Piccadilly Gardens or Stockport bus station

Stockport, yes. The 199/X30 do it multiple times per hour in 15 minutes.

Piccadilly, not very fast.

 

[DDB]

I was wondering if the service does end up staying with EMR whether they would have enough 158s once all their 170s arrive for all the other regional services to go up to six car 158s? Are there any platform length issues along the route?