Face coverings compulsory on public transport in England from 15 June

[Starmill]

Exactly

A fearful population is easier to control

This is a wild conspiracy theory.

 

[Journeyman]

I think this is the really revealing point. It's simply that you don't want to because you don't want to. Perhaps it would make it easier for you to understand where other people are coming from if you thought less about yourself?

You can choose to think what you like about me, but you're wrong, and I don't particularly care.

 

[Journeyman]

This is a wild conspiracy theory.

Have you read any Orwell?

The government have admitted they laid it on thick with the doom-laden warnings, because they didn't think people would comply otherwise.

 

[ashkeba]

How do we teach children to be part of society if they grow up without seeing the faces of those in society at large - yes they will see the faces of their family/teachers/friends but is that alone enough if we end up as a society where anyone else they encounter has a covering which prevents non-verbal communication?

I do not know about you but I use many other parts of my body in non verbal communication and not my nose and chin much!

Also we teach children to polite members of society even when they cannot see the other person at all such as on the telephone or by letters/emails. I really do not think a few months of occasional masking will result in a lost generation of antisocial idiots!

 

[Journeyman]

I do not know about you but I use many other parts of my body in non verbal communication and not my nose and chin much!

Also we teach children to polite members of society even when they cannot see the other person at all such as on the telephone or by letters/emails. I really do not think a few months of occasional masking will result in a lost generation of antisocial idiots!

But it won't be a few years of occasional mask-wearing. If this gets entrenched as "normal", it will be with us permanently.

 

[ashkeba]

Has any virus ever been entirely eradicated? Ever? The Spanish Flu virus is still with us over 100 years later.

Smallpox?

 

[Journeyman]

Smallpox?

In the wild, yes. It exists in lab samples. Polio is close to elimination.

 

[ashkeba]

One thing that's really alarmed me about the whole outbreak is the expectation that the government will magically solve everything by telling us exactly what to do. The whole concept of weighing up your own risks seems to have been thrown out of the window completely. People don't seem to be able to make decisions at all without a direct instruction.

No, the problem is that some people do not seem to be able to make rational decisions without being menaced with loss of service, money or liberty, as this whole farce has shown repeatedly, from the government use of emotional blackmail to make people take wild isolation actions to now how some people are refusing to cover their mouths and noses not because they have some breathing or skin problem with them but just because they do not like the idea of scarves and do not care if they infect other people.

 

[Journeyman]

No, the problem is that some people do not seem to be able to make rational decisions without being menaced with loss of service, money or liberty, as this whole farce has shown repeatedly, from the government use of emotional blackmail to make people take wild isolation actions to now how some people are refusing to cover their mouths and noses not because they have some breathing or skin problem with them but just because they do not like the idea of scarves and do not care if they infect other people.

But you can't make rational decisions if you're being menaced.

 

[AM9]

I think this is the really revealing point. It's simply that you don't want to because you don't want to. Perhaps it would make it easier for you to understand where other people are coming from if you thought less about yourself?

In post #728 I did ask journeyman: Would you be able to tell us where on the risk spectrum you fall?
He/she doesn't seem to want to answer that but he has boasted a couple of time about why and how he doesn't see his health at risk:

post #701

I also haven't been close to anyone outside my household for any length of time at all since this whole thing started, so the likelihood of me picking it up or spreading it is practically zero. I can live with that.

post #741

I'm not afraid of being around anyone not wearing one. The world is full of selfish people, but 99.9999999% of them aren't a threat to me.

and this post sums up the way forward:

post #766

But I'm most likely not, and I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

It is no wonder that the infection rate will rise, so however incompetent the government might be to some (including me), getting some mutual respect between those who are vulnerable and those who think that they aren't is going to rely on the many that do respect the safety of others and, regrettably, legislation to make the selfish minority behave. Then they can rant as much as they like, ultimately in a court.

 

[xc170]

But it won't be a few years of occasional mask-wearing. If this gets entrenched as "normal", it will be with us permanently.

This is my worry also.

I can see masks being commonplace for a few weeks then people will start wearing them less and less...

 

[Journeyman]

In post #728 I did ask journeyman: Would you be able to tell us where on the risk spectrum you fall?
He/she doesn't seem to want to answer that but he has boasted a couple of time about why and how he doesn't see his health at risk:

post #701​

post #741​

and this post sums up the way forward:

post #766​

It is no wonder that the infection rate will rise, so however incompetent the government might be to some (including me), getting some mutual respect between those who are vulnerable and those who think that they aren't is going to rely on the many that do respect the safety of others and, regrettably, legislation to make the selfish minority behave. Then they can rant as much as they like, ultimately in a court.

Ah, a nice ad-hominem attack! Classy. Now you're just having a go simply because I disagree with you. I've already stated my willingness to isolate if I considered myself a risk to others. I also haven't broken the lockdown rules at all, despite the fact that I disagree with them. I've also stated that I don't intend to use public transport while masks are compulsory, but if I have to do so, I will comply.

I missed your question about my demographic. I'm a male in my mid-forties with no underlying health conditions and an active lifestyle. I also don't smoke, and I'm not overweight. Quite apart from the fact I'd have to catch it first, which isn't hugely likely, the death rate in my demographic is 0.2%. I can live with that.

 

[LowLevel]

I was initially dubious but personally having been doing it for a few weeks at work on board trains I'm actually finding that it doesn't bother me. I use a bit more thought with my hand gestures, verbal comms and announcements and haven't had any issues.

Once it stops being mandated (as I am certain it will, it's too much of a pain in the backside to maintain) there needs to be an alternative solution to provide some of the benefits, like allowing me to strike any individual once hard on the nose whom coughs repeatedly without covering their mouth inside a railway carriage or puts a ticket or bank note in their mouth before handing it to me.

I catch every bug going spending much of my life inside a train observing disgusting habits and anything that makes the trampier individuals in society think a bit more about their actions has to be a good thing for me.

 

[Journeyman]

Make of this what you will, but for the sake of full disclosure, I'll explain another very significant factor in my resistance to compulsion to do things.

I became a Christian when I was fifteen, and spent many years in fundamentalist churches, one of which would easily meet the definition of a cult. One of the key things I had drummed into me was that I was such a hopeless sinner, everything about me was corrupt. As such, all of my inner resources - thoughts, emotions, desires, choices etc - were rotten to the core and not to be trusted. As such, I was expected to do exactly what I was told by church leaders, and not doing so resulted in some serious shaming. On top of that, because I was taught that non-believers were heading straight to hell, I was told it was my duty to rescue them, and tell them what was right for them, and this included a right to be highly judgemental of their choices.

Obviously, such an environment is extremely harmful, and having escaped from it, I've had to learn to trust both my own judgement, and that of other people. I need to know exactly why I'm being asked to do something, and I need to have the right to disagree. Sure, if you want to wear a mask, fill your boots, but be aware I'm going to need a lot more convincing than I've seen so far.

Quite apart from anything else, there's a bodily autonomy issue here for me as well. Christians can have extremely unhealthy boundaries with anything to do with the body, because they're so messed up about sex, so it's something I'm particularly sensitive about. I'm deeply mistrusting of anyone who says I have to do certain things to my body.

 

[AM9]

Well thank you for answering the question.

 

[Journeyman]

Well thank you for answering the question.

No problem. I'd urge you to be a little less quick to judge in future. Peoples' motivations are complex things.

 

[Mintona]

I will oppose wearing one at any time whilst on board a train, as will many staff. And I simply will not travel for leisure.

 

[MikeWM]

Our Prime Minister in the last hour has used twitter to say

https://twitter.com/10DowningStreet/status/1269315615820521472

'Off to the shops? Remember your face covering.'

next to a graphic stating 'At the shops wear a face covering if you can'.

Anyone left who can't see where this is all going yet?

 

[Journeyman]

As I said before, I’d rather lick the door open and close buttons clean after each stop than wear a mask. I will oppose wearing one at any time whilst on board a train, as will many staff. And I simply will not travel for leisure.

Each to his or her own - whatever floats your boat!

 

[Journeyman]

Our Prime Minister in the last hour has used twitter to say 'Off to the shops? Remember your face covering.' next to a graphic stating 'At the shops wear a face covering if you can'.

Anyone left who can't see where this is all going yet?

How depressingly predictable.

 

[AM9]

No problem. I'd urge you to be a little less quick to judge in future. Peoples' motivations are complex things.

If you are implying that your upbringing is the reason for your feelings about the subject matter of this thread then that is unfortunate, but from your teens to your forties, one might have expected life experiences to modify much of the negative aspects that come out in your posts. I am only aware of that indicated by the words that you commit to this thread, hence my referring some of them in my post. I can't speak for others posting here, but it certainly looks to me like I am not alone in my observations.

 

[Starmill]

Have you read any Orwell?

The government have admitted they laid it on thick with the doom-laden warnings, because they didn't think people would comply otherwise.

I'm pretty sure that they haven't.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Our Prime Minister in the last hour has used twitter to say 'Off to the shops? Remember your face covering.' next to a graphic stating 'At the shops wear a face covering if you can'.

Anyone left who can't see where this is all going yet?

I can't find that tweet? Are you sure he said that?

 

[6Gman]

With 40,000+ deaths these are hardly "normal" times.

And without lockdown the figure would have been . . . ?

 

[Journeyman]

If you are implying that your upbringing is the reason for your feelings about the subject matter of this thread then that is unfortunate, but from your teens to your forties, one might have expected life experiences to modify much of the negative aspects that come out in your posts. I am only aware of that indicated by the words that you commit to this thread, hence my referring some of them in my post. I can't speak for others posting here, but it certainly looks to me like I am not alone in my observations.

It's one of many factors. What I'm most annoyed about is your need to jump to a personal attack - it clearly suits your narrative to paint mask refuseniks as evil, selfish scumbags spreading disease everywhere, but it's nowhere near that simple.

I was pointing out one reason why I struggle with people laying down the law. Whether that's right or wrong or not, I'll leave to you to decide. I've done my best to engage with the issues rather than attacking those who disagree with me, and thus far I still don't think I've seen enough evidence to justify compulsion.

 

[Journeyman]

And without lockdown the figure would have been . . . ?

We can't answer that.

 

[45107]

I'm pretty sure that they haven't.

Indeed. If anything, in comparison to some other European countries, our level of lockdown has been pretty much non existant.

 

[island]

I can't find that tweet? Are you sure he said that?

A thirty-second search of Twitter found https://twitter.com/10downingstreet/status/1269315615820521472?s=21

 

[6Gman]

And I am even more concerned that a dangerous new precedent has been set, that is to say that we should now treat our fellow humans as immediate dangers to ourselves. This will not end well.

Can someone please stop the Earth please? I want to get off....

The whole point of face coverings is not that "our fellow human beings" are "an immediate danger to ourselves" but that we when unsymptomatic could be an unwitting danger to others.

 

[Starmill]

You can choose to think what you like about me, but you're wrong, and I don't particularly care.

What I think certainly doesn't come into it. You were expressing indignation as to why so many people disagree vehemently with your views. I was explaining that it was in many cases because of your refusal to accept the fact that only collective action is effective against the disease. You chose not to put any facts based defences up as to why you are outraged in your opposition to collective action. By definition therefore, the reason why you're finding so much opposition is because your arguments have been presented in a way which paints you as rather self centered.