We need to talk about Castlefield again.

[Senex]

Rebuilding Euston and the new Curzon Street station are required for HS2a, for which there is justification based on traffic demand. However, HS2b (north of Crewe and the eastern segment) is not value for money in my view, as the tph using these segments will be too low to justify the expense of building them.

If the original justification was a need for more capacity on the WCML corridor between London and Birmingham (and—just as the French argued a very long time ago to justify LGV1—it makes much more sense to build a completely new line to modern standards than to try and add more tracks to an existing line), then will that justification still be there if there does turn out to be a massive fall-off in London commuter traffic as we "recover" from the pandemic? How many paths could notionally be available between London and Rugby if the WCML fast lines were entirely restricted to long-distance high-speed traffic?

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is: We need to talk about Castlefield again.

If anyone wishes to discuss anything that is not covered by this thread, or any other existing thread, please do feel free to create one

 

[HSTEd]

Where? If you are referring to UMIST, it is not central, and in any case the logistics of connecting all the main lines into Manchester to this point would be a nightmare.

If Piccadilly is central then surely it must be seen as pretty central.... and given that it is literally straddles Castlefield it can be pretty much connected to all the lines into Manchester......

 

[daodao]

If Piccadilly is central then surely it must be seen as pretty central.... and given that it is literally straddles Castlefield it can be pretty much connected to all the lines into Manchester......

Neither Piccadilly (especially platforms 13/14) nor Victoria are particularly close to the heart of Manchester city centre. Albert Square (where the town hall is sited) is where I would define the most central point to be. Central station used to be very close by, but the routes into it were limited (and roundabout in the case of services that ran via Chorlton-cum-Hardy).

 

[Purple Orange]

Neither Piccadilly (especially platforms 13/14) nor Victoria are particularly close to the heart of Manchester city centre. Albert Square (where the town hall is sited) is where I would define the most central point to be. Central station used to be very close by, but the routes into it were limited (and roundabout in the case of services that ran via Chorlton-cum-Hardy).

When someone says central, how central do you reasonably expect? Piccadilly station is in Central Manchester. Anywhere within the ring road is in Central Manchester. Specifying the exact centre is a redundant exercise. Not everything can occupy the middle of a city.

 

[The Planner]

Central to a lot of people is going to be "where the pubs and shops are"

 

[Clip]

I don’t think the Kent situation as you describe is optimal at all. But how many stations in Kent have services to three of four London terminals? If it calls at London Bridge and then goes on to say Charing Cross, it’s not quite the same thing, as it is on the same line.

Quite a few now you throw Thameslink in to the mix. Not sure if it still happens but loads of stations on the Chatham mainline have charing cross victoria st pancras and possibly cannon street.

 

[HSTEd]

Central to a lot of people is going to be "where the pubs and shops are"

Interesting thing about this is, within reason, the centre will move in response to transport changes.

So if a Manchester "Central" station opens on the UMIST campus, astride the Castlefield corridor (still technically on topic!), then the perception of what the centre is will likely shift southwards over years and decades.

 

[Purple Orange]

Central to a lot of people is going to be "where the pubs and shops are"

And also where their place if work is, or where particular restaurants, theatres, cinemas and museums are. Which in the case of Manchester covers the vast majority of the area inside the ring road. Shops are different being that they are mostly located in the northwest area of the city.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern, TPE or EMR reliability won’t be solved any time soo though. And perhaps this won’t be solved until there is a solution for NPR. All I pointing out here is that if there is an express service to wherever, it is far easier from a passenger perspective to know that all the services you require are located at the same station. All Liverpool, Leeds services could be at Victoria. All Birmingham & London at Piccadilly (as they are). Yet passengers are clear as to where they need to be.

All Liverpool services can't be at Victoria - the CLC is not accessible from there. A west-north curve could be added to the Ordsall Chord, but it'd cost and there would be better things to spend it on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting thing about this is, within reason, the centre will move in response to transport changes.

So if a Manchester "Central" station opens on the UMIST campus, astride the Castlefield corridor (still technically on topic!), then the perception of what the centre is will likely shift southwards over years and decades.

To some extent. At the moment it seems to be shifting north - much of the trendy Northern Quarter was basically abandoned in the 90s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Neither Piccadilly (especially platforms 13/14) nor Victoria are particularly close to the heart of Manchester city centre. Albert Square (where the town hall is sited) is where I would define the most central point to be. Central station used to be very close by, but the routes into it were limited (and roundabout in the case of services that ran via Chorlton-cum-Hardy).

Manchester has a relatively (for somewhere outside London) distributed city centre. I wouldn't say there really is a central point in the same way as smaller cities. It's not anywhere near as big as London's Zone 1, but it is much bigger than most other cities in the UK, particularly the smaller ones.

That central area (Zone 1 if you like) is basically encircled by the 5 main stations (if you count Salford Central) and Metrolink is the way you get into the middle of it, a bit like London.

 

[Purple Orange]

Manchester has a relatively (for somewhere outside London) distributed city centre. I wouldn't say there really is a central point in the same way as smaller cities. It's not anywhere near as big as London's Zone 1, but it is much bigger than most other cities in the UK, particularly the smaller ones.

That central area (Zone 1 if you like) is basically encircled by the 5 main stations (if you count Salford Central) and Metrolink is the way you get into the middle of it, a bit like London.

I’d say only Edinburgh has a bigger city centre, excluding London (albeit it Waverley is bang in the middle). The trouble with transport in Manchester is that the central area is shifting to a huge degree. It will be within most of our lifetimes that Salford Quays will be part of that ‘Central Manchester’ zone 1 equivalent, so how should transport accommodate the shift west? What about the gravitational pull south towards the University? Then we have a band of development that has circled from east of Piccadilly around towards Middlewood Locks, covering an 11 o’clock to 5 o’clock sweep of city centre expansion, therefore how could that area be accommodated for local rapid transport as well as national rail?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d say only Edinburgh has a bigger city centre, excluding London (albeit it Waverley is bang in the middle).

Edinburgh is odd, it basically has two entirely separate city centres, neither of which is that big but they are a reasonable distance apart with Waverley as you say in the middle. Though the New Town does stretch a fairly long way down towards Haymarket.

The trouble with transport in Manchester is that the central area is shifting to a huge degree. It will be within most of our lifetimes that Salford Quays will be part of that ‘Central Manchester’ zone 1 equivalent, so how should transport accommodate the shift west? What about the gravitational pull south towards the University? Then we have a band of development that has circled from east of Piccadilly around towards Middlewood Locks, covering an 11 o’clock to 5 o’clock sweep of city centre expansion, therefore how could that area be accommodated for local rapid transport as well as national rail?

True. It's also shifting towards Salford (Central), which does raise the possibility of building a "Manchester Hbf" to replace Victoria not on the arena site but on the Exchange site, which does have a load of space around it if I recall.

I think the upshot of that, like London, is that it doesn't overly matter where exactly the main station(s) is/are as long as it/they are well connected by Metrolink. Paddington, to use a London comparison, is basically in an inner suburb, but that doesn't really bother anyone as if you go to London you pretty much are going to use some sort of onward transport.

Though on the subject of split services between Picc and Vic, a good number of Euston commuters didn't want the (now abandoned) proposal to put the Tring/MKC stoppers onto Crossrail because that would split the service...

 

[HSTEd]

True. It's also shifting towards Salford (Central), which does raise the possibility of building a "Manchester Hbf" to replace Victoria not on the arena site but on the Exchange site, which does have a load of space around it if I recall.

Unfortunately its eems there been a bunch of new construction around there which has closed everything in on the viaduct.

Best location (if UMIST is out) is probably over the waste ground south of Salford Central - replacing the current junction complex.

The only line that is dodgy to reconnect is the line out to Old Trafford, but you might manage a viaduct over the current roadways that could let it work.
There is even a metrolink line nearby.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only line that is dodgy to reconnect is the line out to Old Trafford, but you might manage a viaduct over the current roadways that could let it work.
There is even a metrolink line nearby.

There is space for a west-north chord on Ordsall, but I think that'd come in east of Salford Central?

 

[Purple Orange]

Unfortunately its eems there been a bunch of new construction around there which has closed everything in on the viaduct.

Best location (if UMIST is out) is probably over the waste ground south of Salford Central - replacing the current junction complex.

The only line that is dodgy to reconnect is the line out to Old Trafford, but you might manage a viaduct over the current roadways that could let it work.
There is even a metrolink line nearby.

There is no space south of Salford Central - basically all significant areas of land within the ring road has been developed, is under construction or has a plan to be developed. That only leaves the space to the east of Piccadilly reserved for HS2.

Obviously the thread has gone around in circles with regards to station development in Manchester, but that discussion needs to happen to consider how to deal with the Castlefield corridor. In my opinion it leaves the 5 station circuit, but only Piccadilly station has scope for being the main focus for all long distance services.

So what will we be left with? I will assume NPR will be a ‘do the minimum’ job (I.e. reverse in Piccadilly, using HS2 tunnel to the airport and a link east to Leeds via Huddersfield from Piccadilly). IMHO this will be what we get:

• Castlefield corridor won’t be solved until HS2 and NPR is developed.
• Piccadilly will get 4 HS2 platforms.
• NPR will utilise low numbered platforms in existing Piccadilly station.
• P15 & P16 wont be built.
• P9-14 will operate purely commuter regional services.
• P1-8 will facilitate NPR services to Liverpool and Scotland services via HS2 tunnel, plus Leeds, Newcastle, Sheffield & Nottingham.
• London, Birmingham and possibly any other service that uses the HS2 tunnel in HS2 platforms.
• Picc P13 & P14, Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Central & Victoria to form the central route of a metro commuter network.
• Victoria station to be purely a commuter service station.

 

[daodao]

There is no space south of Salford Central - basically all significant areas of land within the ring road has been developed, is under construction or has a plan to be developed. That only leaves the space to the east of Piccadilly reserved for HS2.

Obviously the thread has gone around in circles with regards to station development in Manchester, but that discussion needs to happen to consider how to deal with the Castlefield corridor. In my opinion it leaves the 5 station circuit, but only Piccadilly station has scope for being the main focus for all long distance services.

So what will we be left with? I will assume NPR will be a ‘do the minimum’ job (I.e. reverse in Piccadilly, using HS2 tunnel to the airport and a link east to Leeds via Huddersfield from Piccadilly). IMHO this will be what we get:

• Castlefield corridor won’t be solved until HS2 and NPR is developed.
• Piccadilly will get 4 HS2 platforms.
• NPR will utilise low numbered platforms in existing Piccadilly station.
• P15 & P16 wont be built.
• P9-14 will operate purely commuter regional services.
• P1-8 will facilitate NPR services to Liverpool and Scotland services via HS2 tunnel, plus Leeds, Newcastle, Sheffield & Nottingham.
• London, Birmingham and possibly any other service that uses the HS2 tunnel in HS2 platforms.
• Picc P13 & P14, Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Central & Victoria to form the central route of a metro commuter network.
• Victoria station to be purely a commuter service station.

As you have stated, that doesn't solve the current problems with the Castlefield corridor now. HS2b to Manchester won't be open for at least 15 years (if ever), so your suggestions are pie in the sky. There are far too many trains to accommodate on the Castlefield corridor, even with your proposals. Therefore, many regional trains from the Chat Moss, Atherton, Bolton and Rochdale directions will need to continue to terminate at Victoria, or run as through trains just serving Salford Central and Victoria.

Platforms 1-3 are currently used by the ex-GC line suburban services, plus the slow services via Huddersfield. While some of the ex-GC services can be converted to Metrolink, the local services to New Mills/Sheffield and Huddersfield will continue to be heavy rail and can only easily serve these platforms. In addition, the Piccadilly track layout makes it difficult for trains using platforms 1-3 for express services from Leeds and beyond to reverse and proceed elsewhere without cutting across the station throat, and also for running trains from the Ashburys direction into platforms other than 1-4.

This thread is about what to do with the Castlefield corridor now. See my previous post 99 (30 May 2020 at 08:36) for practical suggestions that can be implemented within the next 1-5 years. If it had been possible to have built a Manchester Hbf in the last 190 years (when the first railway station opened in M/c), it would have been done by now. BR tried to centralise all long-distance services at Piccadilly, but that has clearly failed, and the ex-LNW fast service from Leeds to Liverpool has now sensibly reverted to the Miles Platting route.

 

[Senex]

True. It's also shifting towards Salford (Central), which does raise the possibility of building a "Manchester Hbf" to replace Victoria not on the arena site but on the Exchange site, which does have a load of space around it if I recall.

Roughly where the proposed Trinity station would have gone — a pity, perhaps, that the railways objected so strongly to the idea in those immediate post-war years. The South Junction line would have been a hugely important component, with various new curves, but I don't think I've ever heard of any suggestions of quadrupling, which would surely have been essential.

 

[Ianno87]

Roughly where the proposed Trinity station would have gone — a pity, perhaps, that the railways objected so strongly to the idea in those immediate post-war years. The South Junction line would have been a hugely important component, with various new curves, but I don't think I've ever heard of any suggestions of quadrupling, which would surely have been essential.

Actually, yes if you were looking to expand Victoria, I think a 6 platform replacement station in the space to the west would have been better - possibly double-ended to replace Salford Central as well.

However, looks like the obvious land to the south of the railway has been sold off to expensive-looking development.

There'd need to be some way of tying in a Metrolink branch or deviation to serve it too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder how much it would add to the cost of a brand-new major station to build a new Arena as well, potentially on top? At the moment, I believe the actual Arena is mostly to one side, taking up space the railway could use. It would be nicer to have something with a big overall roof, but really if they could just get another 4-6 through platforms or even west-facing bays of at least 160m each it would still be a big improvement.

Looking at a Google aerial photo, it appears to me that the northernmost track on the approach is separated from the other 3 by a space that is quite wide - looks wide enough to potentially squeeze in two long bays there with some new bridge work?

Even more visible on this aerial view - there's also space for some on that additional viaduct butting up to the Arena building - or has that been built on now?

Aerial view of Vic

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even clearer on this one:

another aerial view of Vic from one of the mapping sites

That would appear to show an area (which would require a new bridge to fill in the gap) which looks to me like it would easily take 4 or even 6 160m west facing bay platforms. It'd be a bit Picc 13/14 in terms of getting to it, but a new bridge with travelators could be constructed.

 

[Purple Orange]

As you have stated, that doesn't solve the current problems with the Castlefield corridor now. HS2b to Manchester won't be open for at least 15 years (if ever), so your suggestions are pie in the sky.

I stopped reading your comment at this point. Whatever you think of HS2 (obvious you don’t want it to happen), it is the only solution that has any legs for resolving the castlefield corridor problem, even if it is 15 years away. Until then any upgrade or changes to the timetable are just going to minimise the problems, but not solve them.

 

[Ianno87]

Even clearer on this one:

another aerial view of Vic from one of the mapping sites

That would appear to show an area (which would require a new bridge to fill in the gap) which looks to me like it would easily take 4 or even 6 160m west facing bay platforms. It'd be a bit Picc 13/14 in terms of getting to it, but a new bridge with travelators could be constructed.

That's the problem - it'd be a bit of a dog's breakfast station operation-wise. End-loading the trains and folks having to walk the length of the existing platforms, given that if you're going to, say, Bolton, your train could be from all over the place.

If money is to be spent, it needs to be a proper solution, not a fudge.

 

[Ianno87]

I stopped reading your comment at this point. Whatever you think of HS2 (obvious you don’t want it to happen), it is the only solution that has any legs for resolving the castlefield corridor problem, even if it is 15 years away. Until then any upgrade or changes to the timetable are just going to minimise the problems, but not solve them.

And any serious infrastructure solution to Castlefield is probably not a dissimilar time period away anyway. Even Piccadilly 15/16 I'm thinking is little more than a (very expensive) sticking plaster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If money is to be spent, it needs to be a proper solution, not a fudge.

I'm not sure it's be any more of a fudge than Picc P15/16, to be honest, provided they put travelators in.

But really, the best solution remains, from the point of view of Vic, to get rid of the Arena and build a large replacement station on the entire site, something around the size of Birmingham New St with the same level of facilities. The layout of Manchester's railways doesn't (like London) really lend itself to one Hauptbahnhof, but you could at least make the two main stations vaguely equivalent in facilities.

Then (hello @Bantamzen ) Castlefield becomes "S-Bahn" only, potentially using only 3/6 car CAF formations and even adding half-height platform edge doors - like it was for many years before the Windsor Link was built. Operate it like Merseyrail and it won't be a problem - Liverpool Central's busy Northern Line platforms handle 8tph terminating and reversing, and 4tph through trains in each direction (so 16 train movements per hour) with very few operational problems (the problems are mostly about passenger overcrowding, not punctuality), which (because of the disruptions the reversals cause) is well in excess of what 13/14 would be handling in that scenario.

With regard to connectivity, you could also do some rebuilding at Salford Crescent and stop everything inbound there, then it'd be an easy and quick connection onto a high capacity, frequent S-Bahn if you wanted one of the Castlefield stations. Perhaps (and there is room, I'm pretty sure of it) it could be something like two through platforms (with those services mostly or solely to Vic) and a central bay with doors open on both sides (with an S-Bahn service to Manchester Airport at least 4 times an hour, with another 2 coming from Rochdale/Vic via Ordsall, and a further 2 from the CLC, giving a total of 8tph on Castlefield)?

Perhaps two or even four of those could serve Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel and Stockport (and on to Hazel Grove?) rather than overserving Ringway? And perhaps two continue from Ringway (reversing) to Crewe via Styal?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I wonder how much it would add to the cost of a brand-new major station to build a new Arena as well, potentially on top? At the moment, I believe the actual Arena is mostly to one side, taking up space the railway could use. It would be nicer to have something with a big overall roof, but really if they could just get another 4-6 through platforms or even west-facing bays of at least 160m each it would still be a big improvement.

Looking at a Google aerial photo, it appears to me that the northernmost track on the approach is separated from the other 3 by a space that is quite wide - looks wide enough to potentially squeeze in two long bays there with some new bridge work?

Even more visible on this aerial view - there's also space for some on that additional viaduct butting up to the Arena building - or has that been built on now?

Aerial view of Vic

So you're suggesting Manchester Victoria goes from 4 through and 2 eastern bays to 8-10 through platforms, 2 eastern bays and 2 western bays. The Western Bays were part of the original northern hub proposals but were cancelled in favour of a terminating platform at Rochdale. But under your proposals Manchester Victoria would go up to 14 platforms which i am not sure is possible.

 

[Purple Orange]

Even clearer on this one:

another aerial view of Vic from one of the mapping sites

That would appear to show an area (which would require a new bridge to fill in the gap) which looks to me like it would easily take 4 or even 6 160m west facing bay platforms. It'd be a bit Picc 13/14 in terms of getting to it, but a new bridge with travelators could be constructed.

Back when the proposal for 2 west facing bays, I always struggled to picture where the platforms would be going, but I agree with the comparison to P13 & P14. I just can’t see the arena going anytime soon (Eastlands arena or not), andessentially we have to live with a 6 platform Victoria.

 

[daodao]

I stopped reading your comment at this point. Whatever you think of HS2 (obvious you don’t want it to happen), it is the only solution that has any legs for resolving the Castlefield corridor problem, even if it is 15 years away. Until then any upgrade or changes to the timetable are just going to minimise the problems, but not solve them.

HS2 is a red herring regarding the Castlefield line issues. Its rationale is accelerating services from London via Birmingham to the North, including Manchester. Even though HS2b will serve the Airport, trains calling there will either be non-stop to Piccadilly or Birmingham/London and won't help with providing regional connectivity to the Airport, which is what the Castlefield line and the Ordsall curve attempt to do.

The Castlefield line problem is due to too many local services, east-west longer distance services, services to the Airport and freight trains trying to use a restricted 2 track corridor. The simplest solution is to reduce traffic on this route by diverting some of these services onto the 4 track corridor through Victoria. This can be facilitated by sending most Standedge line trains into Piccadilly (other than those proceeding to Liverpool) to terminate there. In order to do this, certain ex-GC suburban services to SE Manchester need to be removed from terminating at platforms 1-3 by conversion to Metrolink and linking with Metrolink services from Altrincham and Bury that currently terminate at the underground Piccadilly Metrolink stop. Rebuilding the ex-GC line via Culcheth between Glazebrook and the Chat Moss line near the former Kenyon junction would enable freight trains to exit Trafford Park FLT to the west and could also be used by local passenger trains; if rebuilt, it should be electrified along with the CLC Warrington line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

HS2 is a red herring regarding the Castlefield line issues. Its rationale is accelerating services from London via Birmingham to the North, including Manchester. Even though HS2b will serve the Airport, trains calling there will either be non-stop to Piccadilly or Birmingham/London and won't help with providing regional connectivity to the Airport, which is what the Castlefield line and the Ordsall curve attempt to do.

I think HS2 here is being used to refer to HS3/Northern Powerhouse Rail. Though "full" HS2 would also relieve the line through Stockport and allow e.g. increased frequency at Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel, and potentially also running things via Denton.