Preserved Steam loco liveries

[Bittern]

I've been thinking about this, and I was originally going to talk about the liveries of the A4s currently running, but I then thought that this topic could be extended to talk about many more preserved locos.

I've looked at videos and photos of Railtours online, and I've noticed one major thing in common with the preserved main-line running locos, and that is they're all in some kind of British Railways livery. Absolutely none of them I've seen represents any of the Big 4 at all, despite many being built by them. Why is it we have three operational A4s, two of which are in the same BR Green and one in BR Blue? Why not one in LNER Garter Blue? Why don't we have one Black Five representing the LMS? Honestly, is there like some sort of rule out there that all main line operational steam locos must be in a BR livery?

 

[theblackwatch]

Probably comes down to the fact that most of the people involved in the preservation of these locos remember them in the colours they carry now, so want them in colours from their 'era'. There can't be many people about now who remember them running in pre British Railways colours.

 

[Teaboy1]

I would love to see a current mainline steam loco in late-BR soot, grime and boiler-scale livery, that how I remember the last years of steam.

To be serious though, the latter BR liveries were actually good colours IMHO, the Brunswick Green particularly stands out aka Evening Star. The Garter Blue (Duck Egg Blue) was so retro 1930's that it dont fit today. I remember Leander in Midland Maroon and Frying Scotsman in Apple Green but I believe other colours look pants.

You must also remember that colour plays a significant part in marketing, choose a poor colour and your stuck with it....!!

What colour is Tornado? A sort of sun faded uv bleached B&Q shed (does wot it say on tin mate) green??

 

[sprinterguy]

What theblackwatch said. The volunteers and preservationists who look after these locos and have the say in what livery they wear remember them in their BR colours; there are few left now who were particularly familiar with the pre-nationalisation liveries; so BR liveries are what they are painted in.

I've noticed one major thing in common with the preserved main-line running locos, and that is they're all in some kind of British Railways livery.

The MAJORITY of preserved main-line steam locos are in a BR livery, but there are a few that aren't:
"Leander" and "Princess Elizabeth" are in LMS Crimson lake.
"Duchess of Sutherland" was until very recently in LMS Crimson Lake, and is now in LMS black.
"City of Truro" is in GWR green, and there may be otehr GWR locos in pre-nationalisation livery (not that the hue of green is much differemt anyway)
Isn't "Sir Lamiel" or "Lord Nelson" in Southern livery?

Why don't we have one Black Five representing the LMS?

That does seem to be a bit of a missed opportunity, as the only real difference would be painting "LMS" on the tender and changing the font of the cabside number. Given that Peak Rail have a non-authentic crimson lake 8F, you'd think that a main line, authentic, LMS liveried Black Five wouldn't be too much of a stretch for someone.:roll:

There used to be a main line registered LMS painted Black Five, and Sir Nigel Gresley ran in LNER Garter Blue for a lot of years, and both (6)2005 and 3442 "The Great Marquess" were in LNER apple green a few years ago.

Thinking particularly of the main line registered A4s here, where their pre-nationalisation liveries would not be authentic given the locos current condition: All the amin line registered A4s don't have the driving wheel skirts, and I think only a few A4s recieved garter blue after WW2 when the skirts were taken off. I always thought that Sir Nigel looked a bit odd in LNER Garter blue with the side valances removed, even if it was authentic.
Another example is "Flying Scotsman", runnning in LNER Apple Green but in late 1950s BR condition, which is just embarrassing; that is one loco that SHOULD be painted brunswick green. But I bet it would lose a lot of it's marketing potential and the frothing masses perpetually surrounding it if it had 60103 instead of 4472 painted on the cab.

To be serious though, the latter BR liveries were actually good colours IMHO, the Brunswick Green particularly stands out aka Evening Star.

Nooo!:-x BR Brunswick Green is one of the drabbest colours EVER in my opinion, it takes exceedingly compliant weather conditions to get it to look even remotely attractive as far as I'm concerned, the rest of the time it just looks dull. I wish BR had gone for the wider application of the express passenger loco blue, as worn by Sir Nigel Gresley, now THAT is a good BR era livery!

 

[Templecombe]

What theblackwatch said. The volunteers and preservationists who look after these locos and have the say in what livery they wear remember them in their BR colours; there are few left now who were particularly familiar with the pre-nationalisation liveries; so BR liveries are what they are painted in.


The MAJORITY of preserved main-line steam locos are in a BR livery, but there are a few that aren't:
"Leander" and "Princess Elizabeth" are in LMS Crimson lake.
"Duchess of Sutherland" was until very recently in LMS Crimson Lake, and is now in LMS black.
"City of Truro" is in GWR green, and there may be otehr GWR locos in pre-nationalisation livery (not that the hue of green is much differemt anyway)
Isn't "Sir Lamiel" or "Lord Nelson" in Southern livery?


That does seem to be a bit of a missed opportunity, as the only real difference would be painting "LMS" on the tender and changing the font of the cabside number. Given that Peak Rail have a non-authentic crimson lake 8F, you'd think that a main line, authentic, LMS liveried Black Five wouldn't be too much of a stretch for someone.:roll:

There used to be a main line registered LMS painted Black Five, and Sir Nigel Gresley ran in LNER Garter Blue for a lot of years, and both (6)2005 and 3442 "The Great Marquess" were in LNER apple green a few years ago.

Thinking particularly of the main line registered A4s here, where their pre-nationalisation liveries would not be authentic given the locos current condition: All the amin line registered A4s don't have the driving wheel skirts, and I think only a few A4s recieved garter blue after WW2 when the skirts were taken off. I always thought that Sir Nigel looked a bit odd in LNER Garter blue with the side valances removed, even if it was authentic.
Another example is "Flying Scotsman", runnning in LNER Apple Green but in late 1950s BR condition, which is just embarrassing; that is one loco that SHOULD be painted brunswick green. But I bet it would lose a lot of it's marketing potential and the frothing masses perpetually surrounding it if it had 60103 instead of 4472 painted on the cab.


Nooo!:-x BR Brunswick Green is one of the drabbest colours EVER in my opinion, it takes exceedingly compliant weather conditions to get it to look even remotely attractive as far as I'm concerned, the rest of the time it just looks dull. I wish BR had gone for the wider application of the express passenger loco blue, as worn by Sir Nigel Gresley, now THAT is a good BR era livery!

theres nothing wrong with brunswick green I hate that apple green through and that greyish blue Tornado ran in

 

[sprinterguy]

I love the livery that Tornado is in! (I do admit that the grey undercoat it ran in for a bit was, well, lacking) Mmmm an apple green loco hauling a rake of blood and custard coaches now that is one tasty combination, my favourite! (I'm a North Eastern Railway kind of guy, hence the love of apple green)

Hey, tell you what, let's repaint one of the main line registered A4s into the LNER apple green that a few of them wore at the start, please some of the pre-nationalisation livery fans (Umm, maybe)

 

[Bittern]

Thinking particularly of the main line registered A4s here, where their pre-nationalisation liveries would not be authentic given the locos current condition: All the amin line registered A4s don't have the driving wheel skirts, and I think only a few A4s recieved garter blue after WW2 when the skirts were taken off. I always thought that Sir Nigel looked a bit odd in LNER Garter blue with the side valances removed, even if it was authentic.

On the skirts thing, a few years ago Bittern was "disguised" as one of the Silver Link A4s, complete with skirts. I assume these were specially made, and don't know of their fate, but I doubt that they're impossible to make.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Why not just paint one in unlined wartime black, with just "NE" on the tender?

 

[sprinterguy]

On the skirts thing, a few years ago Bittern was "disguised" as one of the Silver Link A4s, complete with skirts. I assume these were specially made, and don't know of their fate, but I doubt that they're impossible to make.

Indeed it was, as 2509 "Silver Link". And it looked flippin' fantastic I think

Yeah the skirts would be simple enough to produce, just a question of shaping a few sheets of metal really, but I reckon that the preservationists dealing with the A4s would be dubious about adding extra bits on.

Why not just paint one in unlined wartime black, with just "NE" on the tender?

That sounds like a pretty good idea!

 

[Bittern]

Why not just paint one in unlined wartime black, with just "NE" on the tender?

Does anyone have any photos of an A4 in Wartime Black? I can only find pictures of the model, though understand photos from the early-mid 40s wouldn't be too easy to come by.

 

[sprinterguy]

Does anyone have any photos of an A4 in Wartime Black? I can only find pictures of the model, though understand photos from the early-mid 40s wouldn't be too easy to come by.

I've got a whole book full of them, in Yeadon's Register of the A4 & W1 classes, but unfortunately nothing that's accessible online I'm afraid.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Yeah the skirts would be simple enough to produce, just a question of shaping a few sheets of metal really, but I reckon that the preservationists dealing with the A4s would be dubious about adding extra bits on.

The skirts are in the way when preparing the loco, and for other maintenance tasks. That's why they were dispensed with in the first place. Money would be a factor too. Steam locos are expensive enough to maintain in operational condition, without paying for things that don't need to be there.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I'm siding with SprinterGuy coz I like Tornado's hark back to 1948-49 livery. It could spread wider...
A2 Blue Peter, with an early-1948 number E532.
A4 Sir Nigel's blue is good as it stands.
Wouldn't mind seeing the Jacobite with the B1 in lined black and BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tender.
And the K1 in lined apple green, 6xxxx number and LNER on the tender.
Now we just need a million quid, a "what if" and the fine sight of P2 Cock o' the North in original condition and sporting Thompson's lined Prussian blue as per Great Northern. Mmmmmm...

 

[Spagnoletti]

I would love to see a current mainline steam loco in late-BR soot, grime and boiler-scale livery, that how I remember the last years of steam.

Ok it's not on the mainline but it's possible the Steam locos at the Llangollen 60's weekend (31st July/1st August) might just look a bit shabbier than usual.

 

[Vulcan]

BR liveried engines match the Mk1s they will be pulling.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Ok it's not on the mainline but it's possible the Steam locos at the Llangollen 60's weekend (31st July/1st August) might just look a bit shabbier than usual.

Oh pants, I'm visiting friends in the Emerald Isle that weekend. If anyone here is going to it, I'd love to see your photo-links.

 

[LE Greys]

theres nothing wrong with brunswick green I hate that apple green through and that greyish blue Tornado ran in

For some reason, Brunswick green (which is practically the same shade as medium chrome green) never looked quite as good as the original GWR version. I don't know whether it has something to do with the different lining pattern, the smokebox numberplate or even the lack of a cast plate on the cabside, but it never quite looked right.

The early 1950s blue looked fine on streamliners, but Sir Felix Pole was once quoted as saying that 'the only benefit of going blind is that I never have to look at a King-class painted blue'. 'Nuff said!

 

[Kinghambranch]

For some reason, Brunswick green (which is practically the same shade as medium chrome green) never looked quite as good as the original GWR version. I don't know whether it has something to do with the different lining pattern, the smokebox numberplate or even the lack of a cast plate on the cabside, but it never quite looked right.

The early 1950s blue looked fine on streamliners, but Sir Felix Pole was once quoted as saying that 'the only benefit of going blind is that I never have to look at a King-class painted blue'. 'Nuff said!

Well, we shall soon see a blue "King" again! I have only ever seen these locos in the blue colour scheme in photos. I understand that the colour scheme was withdrawn because the blue colour did not wear well in service. I also believe that the green livery looked a little better on GWR locomotives as the brass and coppoer accoutrements helped to set the colour off. I suppose black has to be a good colour for any steam locomotive really and, in my mind, the GWR 28xxs looked good in black unlike some other GWR classes. It's all down to personal preferences though. I recently attended an excellent slide show at my local railway society given by Chris Youett. He showed examples of pre-war colour views of a variety of loco classes including the A4s in Garter Blue and it is clear that this colour soon looked shabby even on such a top link thoroughbred. I presume that modern paints, with their synthetic dyes, are better than the old days but I'd be happy to be corrected on this.

 

[Teaboy1]

I also believe that the green livery looked a little better on GWR locomotives as the brass and coppoer accoutrements helped to set the colour off. I suppose black has to be a good colour for any steam locomotive really and, in my mind, the GWR 28xxs looked good in black unlike some other GWR classes. .

Pardon my higgnorance.....but I mistakenly believed that Brunswick Green WAS GWR Green.........!!

Like I said I always thought Evening Star was the better livery even if it is difficult to photograph.

And yes a glossy black is still a good second IMHO. Garter Blue / Duck Egg Blue only suitable for Thomas!!!!

 

[LE Greys]

Pardon my higgnorance.....but I mistakenly believed that Brunswick Green WAS GWR Green.........!!

Like I said I always thought Evening Star was the better livery even if it is difficult to photograph.

And yes a glossy black is still a good second IMHO. Garter Blue / Duck Egg Blue only suitable for Thomas!!!!

From A Pictorial Record of GWR Engines by J.H. Russell. Livery given as Medium Chrome Green with lining as Orange Chrome and Black. Bufferbeams were China Red. Broad-gauge engines carried what they called Holly Green up to 1881. The question is 'does Brunswick green use a chrome base?' It seemed to go a distinctly olive shade on the Southern Region later on, with some coaches and units carrying Malachite Green right into the 1960s.

I always liked blue on streamliners. The Prussian shade with speed whiskers suited the LMS version very well, while wartime black tended to make them look like an upturned bathtub. A4s with full valances look excellent in Garter blue, and I would recommend it for whoever gets the EC franchise next time. Thanks for identifying the other blue on the coaches, my test repaint of an old HST model can now go ahead.

 

[Templecombe]

the blue kings gonna look s**t

 

[455driver]

Another intuitive and constructive post, thank you for your contribution :roll:.

I take it you will not be getting out of your voyager to see it then?

 

[The Decapod]

I think it's nice to see steam locos in both the old company colours and British Railways colours. Perhaps the British Railways colours are the ones a lot of us remember from Hornby-Dublo and Triang models in the 1960's, so they look familiar on real locos - although by the '60's most remaining real steam locos were in coated in soot and grime all over.

 

[4SRKT]

Many of these engines were on the main line in pre-nationalisation liveries in my youth (Sir Lamiel, 2005, Sir Nigel Gresley, Green Arrow, 5305). I agree with the above that the current fashion for BR liveries is just that it's now 25 years on and the preservationists are now from the next generation.

Hopefully the next [classic diesel] generation will not be tempted to paint the kettles in BR blue, or large logo or Railfreight grey or whatever. Seeing the mess 50044 and 40145 look now temptations to do this sort of thing must be strongly resisted!