The Decline of Midland Red West

[richardjones21]

Er.....I was responding to your points but as you asked....

Perhaps the bit when I mentioned having a business in MRW going from

• 5 to 1 operating locations
• A substantial decline in patronage
• An absence of new vehicle investment for 10 years (after a period of almost minimal investment during the previous 6)
• Moving from industry standard profit margins to being a loss maker

If that's a story of positivity, I commend your optimistic nature.

I understood from your post you hadnt regularly used First Midland Red for a number of years perhaps you are mistaking FMR sister operation of Buses of Somerset which I am unable to comment on.

The positive nature you very kindly comment stems from the continued sucess of First Midland Red operating a high quality service in the previous decade during a vastly changing environment and successfully matched supply to demand which is a basic micro economic theory of all businesses so your point is what exactly?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I understood from your post you hadnt regularly used First Midland Red for a number of years perhaps you are mistaking FMR sister operation of Buses of Somerset which I am unable to comment on.

The positive nature you very kindly comment stems from the continued sucess of First Midland Red operating a high quality service in a vastly changing environment and has successfully matched supply to demand which is a basic micro economic theory of all businesses so your point is what exactly?

No, you're mistaken and besides, I don't live in the Buses of Somerset area! I don't think it's wise to draw conclusions.

However, let me think.... Red and cream Lynxes on the 192.... Darts on the 436/436.... Old Merc 608s from Kiddy to Stourport, or Hereford to Credenhill...... Bit of a Wyvern on the side til they were peeled off..... Yeah, I think that's Midland Red West

Interesting definition of continued success.....

 

[richardjones21]

No, you're mistaken and besides, I don't live in the Buses of Somerset area! I don't think it's wise to draw conclusions.

However, let me think.... Red and cream Lynxes on the 192.... Darts on the 436/436.... Old Merc 608s from Kiddy to Stourport, or Hereford to Credenhill...... Bit of a Wyvern on the side til they were peeled off..... Yeah, I think that's Midland Red West

Interesting definition of continued success.....

My mistake as you mentioned Somerset however
you are talking my language now there was only 1 Wyvern the Dragon at MRW & it was excellent to see him come out of retirement last Christmas for The John Lewis Christmas Adverisment.

Believe you me due to the constant staff shortages at MRW you have never lived until you have covered the Kidderminster duty working on a Sunday of The Black Country Centro 208 round the Rowley Hills with a Merc 608 or covered a duty working from Kidderminster to Ludlow and thrashed a Red & Cream Lynx up Clee Hill on the then 192 there was and still is only one (First) Midland Red (Buses) West Limited & I will defend the company untill my dieing days whatever others may misguidedly believe present management excepted.

 

[DD12]

Thanks to all of you above, for your time and efforts and posts regarding MRW and FMR.

I have lived in Worcester throughout this period, and all these details and viewpoints are of interest, and matter to me.

 

[richardjones21]

Before you go too far with agreeing with me...

I'll say that Midland Red West did a hell of a lot of things right, and were rightly praised and recognised (see marketing) - and I suspect they were responsible for kicking H&WCC into order in the early 1990s as the transport policy became suddenly more switched on. Despite expensive fares, there was a lot of goodwill with the travelling public, and over this side, even Yeomans struggled to take appreciable numbers away when they challenged the established MRW routes.

That all changed c. late 2000, when the repeated cuts to frequencies, evening services, routes began withering away the network whilst the fares were shooting up. The Worcester Evening News effectively declared war on First, rightly so, with little come back - the letters section became filled with criticism most weeks (and unlike the Bristol Evening Post - this was much more justified).

From 2002 the marketing and PR had seemingly gone, customer services stopped responding to complaints (I'm still waiting for some replies...), and the general public had been completely alienated and antagonised. There was no goodwill left - and I would assume that is wholly down to First's management post-Ken.

The attention to detail then fell away.
The 2004 "Overground" launch had the wrong buses with the wrong branding - so they all had to be rebranded two weeks later, the branding covered the "First" logos on the varios as it was too long, and 2 months later the services got cut and fares went up so half the window vinyls got peeled off...
The timetables for those September cuts weren't proof read - my route was changed to go via Knightswick, Whitebourne, Bromsgrove, Stone Lacy and Whittington, amongst others, and worse so - 100% of the bus times were more than 20 minutes wrong! The Worcester bus station timetables weren't corrected for a week - despite the stop being directly in front of the inspector's preferred smoking spot.
Shortly after the "modern" Varios went for tatty but comfortable agricultural Darts in various colours - which shook, squealed, and had a habit of cutting out in neutral. Of course the fares went up again, and the frequencies came down.

I'd say by 2005 irreparable damage had been done - the First brand had been completely tarnished by combination of management errors and press coverage, and the public felt that they were being treated with contempt. I think there was a change of management again around then and generally some stability - nothing spectacular but no significant further decline until the money ran out completely in 2012.

Much is said for how it's difficult territory with an apathetic local authority. I would say Worcestershire is the way it is because for most of the 2000s 95% of the services were run by an apathetic bus company - encouraging a "don't care" attitude all round. Herefordshire has a similar hopeless council, and much worse bus territory - yet things seem a bit more joined up and switched on. Note that since the 192 was binned in 2002, First had been a minority operator in Herefordshire...

I think those are valid conscructive points the attention to detail certainly declined once Heron Lodge closed and publicity was undertaken from Abbey Way.

I think you hit the nail on the button and most funding ran out around 2012.

My argument is with the resources avaliable and the actual demand for services declining many incentives were tried and failed as in hindsight not enough resources were applied a mistake not made by Stagecoach.

Nether the less First Midland Red Buses Limited has survived untill 2020 where other operators have come and gone but I am still of the belief a quality operation was undertaken by the company in exceptional circumstances.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

My mistake as you mentioned Somerset however
you are talking my language now there was only 1 Wyvern the Dragon at MRW & it was excellent to see him come out of retirement last Christmas for The John Lewis Christmas Adverisment.

Believe you me due to the constant staff shortages at MRW you have never lived until you have covered the Kidderminster duty working on a Sunday of The Black Country Centro 208 round the Rowley Hills with a Merc 608 or covered a duty working from Kidderminster to Ludlow and thrashed a Red & Cream Lynx up Clee Hill on the then 192 there was and still is only one (First) Midland Red (Buses) West Limited & I will defend the company untill my dieing days whatever others may misguidedly believe.

I didn't mention Somerset; I presume you took that from my profile

I'm sorry but I'm very confused. I had a great deal of respect for Midland Red West and it is saddening to see how that business declined over time. It's not a slight on the hard work of drivers, or schedulers, fitters or that . By any metric, financial, geographic scope, number of vehicles, number of employees, it is a marked decline from 1995 when First was formed through to 2013 when it was broken apart, and to the current day. I have no personal axe to grind; it's an impartial view, based on the dispassionate interpretation of the facts.

Not really certain there is much else to say that hasn't been said already.

 

[richardjones21]

I didn't mention Somerset; I presume you took that from my profile

I'm sorry but I'm very confused. I had a great deal of respect for Midland Red West and it is saddening to see how that business declined over time. It's not a slight on the hard work of drivers, or schedulers, fitters or that . By any metric, financial, geographic scope, number of vehicles, number of employees, it is a marked decline from 1995 when First was formed through to 2013 when it was broken apart, and to the current day. I have no personal axe to grind; it's an impartial view, based on the dispassionate interpretation of the facts.

Not really certain there is much else to say that hasn't been said already.

I cannot agree Midland Red West has been broken apart far from it the company has matched supply to demand and been sucessfull in doing so. As a fully qualified accountant facts can be interpreted in many different methods the company you are running down awfully is most certainly not the company I have been involved with most of my working life.

It so sad when armchair pundits who never see the real day to day life operations of a company seek to destroy the hard work that goes in to providing a quality operation that matches real demand to its supply based simply on observations.

I do not agree with you in any way and hope First Midland Red Buses Limited continues for another 116 years many other operators are no longer with us but Midland Red is even you cannot deny that.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I cannot agree Midland Red West has been broken apart far from it the company has matched supply to demand and been sucessfull in doing so.

They sold two depots to Rotala...

It so sad when armchair pundits who never see the real day to day life operations of a company seek to destroy the hard work that goes in to providing a quality operation that matches real demand to its supply based simply on observations

If you're nice, I'll let you see my CPCs, and the rest of my professional qualifications

I do not agree with you in any way and hope First Midland Red Buses Limited continues for another 116 years many other operators are no longer with us but Midland Red is even you cannot deny that.

Feel free to disagree. I don't think I suggested Midland Red, or Midland Red West, had ceased to exist.

I think I'll leave you to your thoughts.

 

[richardjones21]

They sold two depots to Rotala...


If you're nice, I'll let you see my CPCs, and the rest of my professional qualifications


Feel free to disagree. I don't think I suggested Midland Red, or Midland Red West, had ceased to exist.

I think I'll leave you to your thoughts.

The sale to Rotala was a strategic decision which has worked well for both Diamond Bus & First Midland Red.

I don't see why a CPC is anything to boast about I have held one since 1995, held a PCV license since 1993 together with a first class honours degree relevant to my job oh and an MBA so who actually cares about insignificant matters like that on this forum that is futile points scoring from you which no one cares about which frankly is not worthy of your reputation on this forum untill the exposure of your analysis of Midland Red West for what it is just armchair analysis unconnected from the actual realities of the company and its operating environment.

I take it then you finally agree that although First Midland Red has had it's up and downs over the years as all companies do it is providing as it has done since 1904 an unrivalled quality service in Worcestershire even since 1995 funny that.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The sale to Rotala was a strategic decision which has worked well for both Diamond Bus & First Midland Red.

So you do accept that First Midland Red was broken up

who actually cares about insignificant matters like that

Quite

I take it then you finally agree that although First Midland Red has had it's up and downs over the years as all companies do it is providing as it has done since 1904 an unrivalled quality service in Worcestershire even since 1995 funny that.

An unrivalled quality service....

 

[Robertj21a]

I cannot agree Midland Red West has been broken apart far from it the company has matched supply to demand and been sucessfull in doing so. As a fully qualified accountant facts can be interpreted in many different methods the company you are running down awfully is most certainly not the company I have been involved with most of my working life.

It so sad when armchair pundits who never see the real day to day life operations of a company seek to destroy the hard work that goes in to providing a quality operation that matches real demand to its supply based simply on observations.

I do not agree with you in any way and hope First Midland Red Buses Limited continues for another 116 years many other operators are no longer with us but Midland Red is even you cannot deny that.

Just as a matter of interest, have you had much significant involvement with other bus operations around the UK?
To me, a lot of what you've been saying is clearly from the heart, and based on your personal involvement. However, there seems to be rather a lack of knowledge of what is generally viewed as 'normal' elsewhere. Numerous operators from Lothian, to Trent, or Brighton & Hove, Nottingham, Reading, or many Stagecoach operations etc etc are all often recognised as among the best in the country. Regardless of the efforts made around Worcester, it's certainly not in the same league. I just wonder if you understand that?

 

[jammy36]

As a fully qualified accountant facts can be interpreted in many different methods the company you are running down awfully is most certainly not the company I have been involved with most of my working life.

I don't see TheGrandWazoo running MRW down awfully in his responses. I think what he has said, in a quite reasonable way and from a position of some experience, is that the company's comparitive performance under First ownership has been poor. That is to say that many of the reasons you've given for this decline are not, as seems to be suggested, unique to MRW - they are the issues that the industry as a whole has been grappling with in one form or another (or they are issues that are self-inflicted by MRW). I think it's therefore valid to compare how MRW has fared in comparison with other operators of similar standing.

Clearly you feel passionate about your former employer and this has obviously given you a strong insight into the company, but sometimes people can be too close and too personally invested to look at the issues objectively. Where you see the derivatively termed "armchair expert", I see a well-considered and objectively argued external viewpoint...

 

[rcro]

Just as a matter of interest, have you had much significant involvement with other bus operations around the UK?
To me, a lot of what you've been saying is clearly from the heart, and based on your personal involvement. However, there seems to be rather a lack of knowledge of what is generally viewed as 'normal' elsewhere. Numerous operators from Lothian, to Trent, or Brighton & Hove, Nottingham, Reading, or many Stagecoach operations etc etc are all often recognised as among the best in the country. Regardless of the efforts made around Worcester, it's certainly not in the same league. I just wonder if you understand that?

To be fair - MRW had the elements to be up there with the best. It had a market leading publicity department, better driver standards then any other large company I've travelled with (though lots of drivers were still miserable!), and seemingly one of the best engineering departments who kept things on the road and very well presented. Just because they didn't shout about it like Alex Hornby doesn't mean they weren't good! Most of this lasted well into the First era - but I felt was done on a budget (viz. the Pathfinder rebodies using Plaxton spare parts, but not given the funding to buy seats to refurbish one of the buses in order to donate seats to fill the void in the other ex-dual doors).

What was lacking was innovation, and, dare I say it, interest from Leicester. First should have been able to walk all over Petes Travel but left them to build market share for 5 years until Rotala relaunched with a snazzy brand and PR (courtesy of the former MRW marketing director, I recall...) - leaving First's buses looking pale, old and uninviting. I'm not really sure what innovation would have been possible (with or without funding and support), but the hotch potch of different coloured buses, with the official colours being age-accentuating faded pink weren't ever going to be a good starting point! I can't imagine top down management would have encouraged innovation locally.

Credit to them now - they are trying to do some good things with route brands and tidy buses. But it's still a bit lacklustre when some of the Worcester city routes now run only hourly until 6pm, or between the hours of 10 and 2 only (examples from routes that had 10 min or better frequencies in 2000) - it's not really clear who they think the buses are for any more.

 

[richardjones21]

So you do accept that First Midland Red was broken up



Quite


An unrivalled quality service....

Yes as an accountant strategic reviews of any business are vital for the survival sucessfull of a company I fully agree with the break up of MRW with divestiture of Kidderminster & Redditch for the long term viability of the business which continues to today.

 

[richardjones21]

Just as a matter of interest, have you had much significant involvement with other bus operations around the UK?
To me, a lot of what you've been saying is clearly from the heart, and based on your personal involvement. However, there seems to be rather a lack of knowledge of what is generally viewed as 'normal' elsewhere. Numerous operators from Lothian, to Trent, or Brighton & Hove, Nottingham, Reading, or many Stagecoach operations etc etc are all often recognised as among the best in the country. Regardless of the efforts made around Worcester, it's certainly not in the same league. I just wonder if you understand that?

Over 30 years direct experience working in the bus industry with perhaps working for the best bus company in England as indicated by my posts eventually to be head hunted by an newly created transport body advising a metro mayor on policy for the future of bus services in a metropolitan area - and yourself?

 

[richardjones21]

To be fair - MRW had the elements to be up there with the best. It had a market leading publicity department, better driver standards then any other large company I've travelled with (though lots of drivers were still miserable!), and seemingly one of the best engineering departments who kept things on the road and very well presented. Just because they didn't shout about it like Alex Hornby doesn't mean they weren't good! Most of this lasted well into the First era - but I felt was done on a budget (viz. the Pathfinder rebodies using Plaxton spare parts, but not given the funding to buy seats to refurbish one of the buses in order to donate seats to fill the void in the other ex-dual doors).

What was lacking was innovation, and, dare I say it, interest from Leicester. First should have been able to walk all over Petes Travel but left them to build market share for 5 years until Rotala relaunched with a snazzy brand and PR (courtesy of the former MRW marketing director, I recall...) - leaving First's buses looking pale, old and uninviting. I'm not really sure what innovation would have been possible (with or without funding and support), but the hotch potch of different coloured buses, with the official colours being age-accentuating faded pink weren't ever going to be a good starting point! I can't imagine top down management would have encouraged innovation locally.

Credit to them now - they are trying to do some good things with route brands and tidy buses. But it's still a bit lacklustre when some of the Worcester city routes now run only hourly until 6pm, or between the hours of 10 and 2 only (examples from routes that had 10 min or better frequencies in 2000) - it's not really clear who they think the buses are for any more.

I fully agree with your comments FMR underestimated Pete's Travel however that company became financially unviable in the long term and ended being part of Diamond Bus which now operates a network high quality service throughout North Worcestershire & The Black Country an operating area which became untenable to FMR.

 

[richardjones21]

I don't see TheGrandWazoo running MRW down awfully in his responses. I think what he has said, in a quite reasonable way and from a position of some experience, is that the company's comparitive performance under First ownership has been poor. That is to say that many of the reasons you've given for this decline are not, as seems to be suggested, unique to MRW - they are the issues that the industry as a whole has been grappling with in one form or another (or they are issues that are self-inflicted by MRW). I think it's therefore valid to compare how MRW has fared in comparison with other operators of similar standing.

Clearly you feel passionate about your former employer and this has obviously given you a strong insight into the company, but sometimes people can be too close and too personally invested to look at the issues objectively. Where you see the derivatively termed "armchair expert", I see a well-considered and objectively argued external viewpoint...

I fully accept your views and opinions but as an objective accountant bound by Institute regulations I still do not recognise the company portrayed by The Great Wazoo and remind him in the 2018 financial year FMR broke even and so despite recent setbacks the company was doing something right.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I fully accept your views and opinions but as an objective accountant bound by Institute regulations I still do not recognise the company portrayed by The Great Wazoo and remind him in the 2018 financial year FMR broke even and so despite recent setbacks the company was doing something right.

In FY2019, the most recent set of financial results, First Midland Red posted an operating loss of £382,000.

 

[richardjones21]

In FY2019, the most recent set of financial results, First Midland Red posted an operating loss of £382,000.

I did not mention 2019 in my post the year the FYE you quote I remember is the period you have much respect & praise for the MD during this period which is sadly beyond my time as ever your analysis of the company does not reflect the reality of my experience with First Midland Red a company to be proud of despite your negative comments.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Personally I think things went downhill for First Midlands since GRT merged with Badgerline.

Grampian putting Moir Lockhead as First CE and selecting Aberdeen as head office meant that (and still means that) most major decisions were being dictated down with no wiggle room for the local operators.

I think that, had Badgerline been the controlling side, First Midland Red may not have retracted as much, and maybe have even returned to the black country through a buyout of Birmingham Coach or the Black Country depots of NX (thus sparing the Midlands the pleasure of Rotala being the second biggest operator)

I live in a former MRW area (the south west part of the Black Country), and to be fair, seeing the withdrawal in the early 00s, then the Kiddy depot sale, it does make me think First dropped the ball a bit.

 

[richardjones21]

Personally I think things went downhill for First Midlands since GRT merged with Badgerline.

Grampian putting Moir Lockhead as First CE and selecting Aberdeen as head office meant that (and still means that) most major decisions were being dictated down with no wiggle room for the local operators.

I think that, had Badgerline been the controlling side, First Midland Red may not have retracted as much, and maybe have even returned to the black country through a buyout of Birmingham Coach or the Black Country depots of NX (thus sparing the Midlands the pleasure of Rotala being the second biggest operator)

I live in a former MRW area (the south west part of the Black Country), and to be fair, seeing the withdrawal in the early 00s, then the Kiddy depot sale, it does make me think First dropped the ball a bit.

Sadly even if Badgerline had not merged with GRT working in accountancy the profit margins of the 123 124 208 209 233 etc did not warrant the continuation of the Black County operations in any way they were unsustainable & would never ever had been continued under any circumstances due to the overhead costs of FMR however Birmingham Coach Company took over the network and continues today as Diamond Bus.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I did not mention 2019 in my post the year the FYE you quote I remember is the period you have much respect & praise for the MD during this period which is sadly beyond my time as ever your analysis of the company does not reflect the reality of my experience with First Midland Red a company to be proud of despite your negative comments.

I noted that you quoted 2018 yet omitted 2019.

Nigel Eggleton is a very good man; I wish him and his colleagues well.

 

[Stan Drews]

Sadly even if Badgerline had not merged with GRT working in accountancy the profit margins of the 123 124 208 209 233 etc did not warrant the continuation of the Black County operations in any way they were unsustainable & would never ever had been continued under any circumstances due to the overhead costs of FMR however Birmingham Coach Company took over the network and continues today as Diamond Bus.

So, the Black Country operations were sustainable, if as you’ve said Diamond Bus are running an efficient operation now. The problem presumably was FMRs inability to address their unsustainable overhead costs, and not the operations themselves?

 

[richardjones21]

So, the Black Country operations were sustainable, if as you’ve said Diamond Bus are running an efficient operation now. The problem presumably was FMRs inability to address their unsustainable overhead costs, and not the operations themselves?

Birmingham Coach Company Ltd had much lower overheads than First Midland Red Buses Limited yet they eventually withdrew both the 123 & 208 in The Black Country after failing to make a commercial operation out of them also. The routes became Centro tenders and were operated at various periods in the contract by Diamond Bus

 

[richardjones21]

I noted that you quoted 2018 yet omitted 2019.

Nigel Eggleton is a very good man; I wish him and his colleagues well.

The Salt Road fiasco and Nimrod promotion with its idiotc publicity and frankly bizarre livery is an prime example of the abysmal performance of the current management of the company who fail to understand the operating area and market they serve.

Customers have usually no knowledge what The Salt Road & Nimrod are actually supposed to be about and frankly couldn't care less leading to potential confusion of the services. Customers simply want a quality reliable service not a stupid brand.

The Net Loss you quoted a reflection of thier utter failure compared with previous management structures at First Midland Red Buses Limited.

The sooner the current management is replaced the better in order for the company to return to its core values respected by former management at First.

Those of us who were at the company previously are quite frankly appalled at the current ineptitude of the current management structure of the company and its latest reorganisation.

 

[anthony263]

I used to work for worcester depot for first bus in 2014 before I moved back to south wales.

Worcester certainly could have done with more minibuses but this was before we had the mercedes benz sprinter minibuses which are supposed to be cheaper than the optare solos to operate and maintain.

The main issues was the traffic. The 35s always had issues and the council and pice were little help.

I remember when first started running the 147 Worcester to Halesowen service at the time I was of the opinion it should have gone through to Merry hill but traffic was one of the reasons I was told it wouldn't.

The 144s were well used to Birmingham even the 0700 from Worcester on a sunday morning.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

in the 2018 financial year FMR broke even and so despite recent setbacks the company was doing something right.

prime example of the abysmal performance of the current management of the company who fail to understand the operating area and market they serve.

Nigel Eggleton arrived in 2016.

 

[richardjones21]

Nigel Eggleton arrived in 2016.

The break even of 2018 was mainly due to the work of the previous management structure reducing losses on the company in previous financial years after working hard to turn the company round.

I have yet to see you provide any evidence of any sucess from the current management structure of First Midland Red Buses Limited leading to the financial loss posted most recently.

The current management structure you admire have been an abysmal failure unless you can prove otherwise.


One member of the current management structure was also an abysmal failure at Diamond Bus before its purchase by Rotala that alone gives no faith in the abilities of the current management of First Midland Red Buses Limited.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I have yet to see you provide any evidence of any sucess from the current management structure of First Midland Red Buses Limited leading to the financial loss posted most recently.

But Richard, you yourself pointed out the 2018 figure, and Nigel Eggleton arrived in 2016.

The break even of 2018 was mainly due to the work of the previous management structure reducing losses on the company in previous financial years after working hard to turn the company round.

Turning the business around? So you believe that First Midland Red had to be turned around? I certainly agree with you that the £1.2m loss in 2016 was a disappointing result especially after the modest profits in 2014 and 2015.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The main issues was the traffic. The 35s always had issues and the council and pice were little help.

I remember when first started running the 147 Worcester to Halesowen service at the time I was of the opinion it should have gone through to Merry hill but traffic was one of the reasons I was told it wouldn't.

Are you thinking of the bit round Lowesmoor? Seems the bus priority was created but never effectively policed. Again, it points to a rather apathetic local authority.

I wondered if the extension to Halesowen might have been better to Merry Hell. Can't recall the timings but perhaps an extra vehicle would have been required and, as we know, the traffic at Christmas is a challenge.