• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Ideas and predictions for trains serving Old Oak Common station

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,214
Most of the time people use intercity trains for short journeys, like Manchester-Stockport, its not particularly that the IC train is inherently more attractive.

It's often the journey time difference.

ICWC covers Manchester-Stockport in 7 minutes.
It takes Northern up to 12.

Even with only two stops.

Get higher performance units on the local services and this problem will be significantly reduced.

With Manchester-Stockport, it's not so much the minor journey time difference, it is just the Avanti services forming a natural part of the turn-up-and-go service. On Manchester-Stockport, you could probably justify making Stockport pick up/set down only (or pick up towards London, open stop towards Manchester) if loadings were an issue as there's plenty of other services to take the slack.

Warrington-Wigan-Preston etc. would need to accept walk up passengers. Different solutions may be needed in different places.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

CW2

Established Member
Joined
7 May 2020
Messages
2,226
Location
Crewe
On Manchester-Stockport, you could probably justify making Stockport pick up/set down only (or pick up towards London, open stop towards Manchester) if loadings were an issue as there's plenty of other services to take the slack.
Regarding Stockport, the Dec 2008 WCML re-write of the timetables did specify that the Stockport stops on the (then) Virgin services should be pick-up only southbound, set down only northbound. With that in mind, the station stops were set at 90 seconds (1.5 minutes). The Dec 2008 timetable was generally a great success. At the next timetable, Virgin decided (unilaterally) that they were going to lift the restrictions on boarding / alighting at Stockport, and make all trains open stops. In doing so they were able to scoop up the majority of the Manchester - Stockport ticket revenue, whilst pushing the problem of poor punctuality onto Network Rail.
When you have significant flows of people trying to board a train, you don't want them to be held up by cheap local flows going in the opposite direction.
The same will hold true for the HS2 platforms at OOC.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
23,374
The same will hold true for the HS2 platforms at OOC.

Trying to have set down only restrictions on Manchester bound services at Stockport on a platform shared with other services is a bit different from having such restrictions at dedicated platforms at Old Oak Common - in the latter case it would seem likely that there won't be any down escalators to the London bound platforms and it won't be possible to use tickets to Old Oak Common on the barriers at Euston.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,705
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Trying to have set down only restrictions on Manchester bound services at Stockport on a platform shared with other services is a bit different from having such restrictions at dedicated platforms at Old Oak Common - in the latter case it would seem likely that there won't be any down escalators to the London bound platforms and it won't be possible to use tickets to Old Oak Common on the barriers at Euston.

They had those restrictions for ages and it wasn't like Watford Jn, it was totally unenforced and more about the idea that the train could depart Stockport early rather than sitting clogging a platform.
 

coppercapped

Established Member
Joined
13 Sep 2015
Messages
3,334
Location
Reading
It's not a "promotional document", it is part of the business case evaluation for HS2. It was used in evidence for the select committee that examined the Bill in detail, and which was voted on and passed in Parliament.
It is all of those things - but it is also a promotional document as its purpose was to promote the construction of HS2. In this it was successful.
The logic for OOC station goes something like this:
With 18 tph running into Euston, the onward transport infrastructure would be utterly overwhelmed. It's necessary to split the HS2 load over two interchanges. Bearing in mind the possible routes out of Euston, and the locations where land is available to build a sizeable interchange station, OOC is the only sensible answer. Once the notion of HS2 running via Heathrow had been ditched, connecting at OOC for Heathrow Express was a must. Because of the density of trains on the GWML Fast Lines, once you stop one train you pretty much have to stop them all. As the demand modelling showed - even if you choose not to believe it - the disbenefit of a 3 - 4 minute journey time extension on the GWML services is outweighed by the overall connectional benefits.
I do chose not to believe - that is to accept without repeatable evidence - that there is a benefit to delaying GW expresses by three or four minutes as I find no specific reference to any such work being published in the public domain. The 2012 Atkins Demand and Appraisal Report for HS2 makes no specific mention of these passengers. As it says on the tin - it’s about HS2. It does however in section 5.4.11 make a mention of passengers on the GWML in general terms:
While the majority of transport users would benefit from the introduction of HS2, some passengers could experience longer or less frequent services. For example, whilst travellers on the Great Western Main Line (GWML) would benefit from improved connectivity to HS2 at Old Oak Common, they would also see a slight increase in journey time to central London due to the additional stop. Also, depending on how released capacity is used on the WCML, some stations could see an increased journey time, or even a reduction in services, to London, and as more passengers use rail and underground services to access HS2 there could also be localised increases in crowding. These impacts and the disbenefits they generate have been included in the assessment of the costs and benefits of HS2, but are significantly outweighed by the larger benefits generated. They also might be minimised further through detailed development of the classic rail timetable and train service specification.
This is damningly vague. As I have written before there are two main groups of travellers on the GWML, those using the express services on the Mains and those using the suburban and outer-suburban services on the Relief lines. It is clear that the Atkins document is only concerned with the Relief line traffic as Figure 5.3 Transport User Benefits of HS2 Phase1 London to West Midlands by Origin of Trip in 2037 marks an area between Slough and Tilehurst extending down to about Blackwater on the Guildford line showing benefits between £10million to £15million in 2037. There are no benefits shown any further west, not for Swindon, nor Bath, nor Bristol nor Taunton nor Exeter. Benefits stop at Reading which is why I surmise that only suburban traffic was considered.

As I have written before I support the idea of suburban trains (GWR and Crossrail) stopping at OOC. It makes sense.

This Figure 5.3 does show considerable benefits accruing to Worcester and the surrounding area - but for trips to London via Birmingham and then HS2, not because of more connections being available at OOC for trains on their traditional route.

Table 5.5 Transport User with Benefits of HS2 by Region and Purpose in the Atkins document lumps the whole area served by the GWR and SWR into ‘Other’ with marginal benefits for ‘Business’ and ‘Other’ passengers of 4% in total.

Another sign that the long distance, high speed services to and from South Wales and the entire South West were not considered at all.

Is there another document which analyses the connectional benefits to travellers on the long distance high speed services of the GWR west of Reading of stopping their trains at OOC?

If this does not exist then it seems to me that the degradation in the GWR’s long distance high speed services is simply being accepted as collateral damage to HS2’s construction.
Not true. The percentage is higher at Paddington because other than St Mary's Hospital there's very little employment in the vicinity of the station. Compare tht with the likes of Marylebone, Euston, St Pancras, and Kings Cross, where there is significant employment nearby Sure, lots of people go forward deeper into London from each of those termini, but not as much as Paddington.
I suggest that you look at Figure 2.9 in TfL’s Central London Rail Termini report of 2011. The Underground mode shares for onward journeys for the stations along the Euston Road are all within 15% of each other, the lowest is St. Pancras with 47% and the highest are Marylebone and Paddington with 62%. All of these are worlds away from Cannon Street which has only 9% of onward journeys made by Tube. Interestingly Waterloo is in the middle of the Euston Road group with 55% using the Tube for onward travel and nobody complains that Waterloo is out in the sticks.

The mode of onward travel which varies most between terminals is walking which varies from 80% at Cannon Street to 58% at Fenchurch Street and a low of 12% at Paddington. Other than that the most popular form of onward public transport is the Tube so from these figures it seems to be irrelevant whether the interchange to the Tube is a half a mile sooner or later in the overall journey.
It depend what you are comparing. If OOC didn't exist then 12 of the 24 Crossrail train per hour would be starting at Paddington, so capacity would be no issue. If you turned up and were faced with a wedged Crossrail that had come from further down the GWML then you could wait a few minutes for an empty Paddington starter. That is no longer the case. With OOC those Paddington starters become OOC starters. So there's a good chance they will load up with HS2 interchanging passengers before they even get to Paddington. So the smart commuter from (say) Reading will soon suss out that it is better to make an interchange at OOC onto an empty train there than at Paddington onto a full(er) one.
As I stated in an earlier post, my view is that this is likely to be opposite in the evening peak, where passengers may prefer to board at Paddington to be sure of a seat on the GWML.
I also do not accept the argument that the Crossrail trains might be full of HS2 passengers before they reach Paddington. Each Crossrail train can carry 1,500 passengers and in the peaks there will be 24 of these per hour - 36,000 people per hour. By Atkins’ calculations (Table 4.2) some 37% of HS2 passengers will change at OOC - a total of 55,800 per day to the West Midlands (and by implication in the reverse direction) or an average of 3,000 per hour over an 18 hour day. That’s two Crossrail trains worth. Double or triple that for the full ‘Y’ HS2 network - that’s still only 6 trains full per hour. Even allowing for the expected loads from the western suburbs there will be room on Crossrail for passengers changing at Paddington on inward journeys. One does not necessarily expect a seat on the Tube so I fail to see why this should be a consideration on Crossrail.
So yes, commuters from (say) Reading to central London may suffer a small disbenefit in terms of door-to-door journey times, depending on the exact destination. However this is outweighed by the overall benefits to a wider number of people afforded by the interchange possibilities at OOC. It's a good thing! Embrace it.

Edit: Typo corrected.
Every, repeat every, passenger travelling to Paddington on one of GWR’s express trains will delayed by four minutes if this stopping pattern is introduced. This means passengers from Penzance, Truro, Lostwithiel, Plymouth, Exeter, Taunton, Weston-super-Mare, Bristol, Chippenham, Gloucester, Kemble, Swindon and so on and so forth will be delayed by four minutes or so on their journeys to and from Paddington. It is not just about commuters from Reading using the non-stop trains.

Why should all these people accept a slowing down of their service simply because the Government found it cheaper to build a station at OOC rather than expand distribution capacity at Euston? The fact that the GW would be slower because HS2 was to be built was never in the prospectus.

This is underhand and reprehensible.

And what really makes me see red is Table 4.3 HS2 average weekday Passengers using London stations by origin/destination 2037 in the Atkins report. This shows for HS2 with OOC:

to/from Greater London 125,000​
to/from Heathrow 1,100​
to/from non-London 21,400​
Total 148,000​

So every GW fast service is being slowed up to allow 0.74% - fewer than one in a hundred - of all HS2 passengers to use a Hex service to Heathrow because if one Hex train stops at OOC every other train has to do so as well.

This is indefensible.

Edit: Typos and missing italics.
 
Last edited:

si404

Established Member
Joined
28 Dec 2012
Messages
1,267
And what really makes me see red is Table 4.3 HS2 average weekday Passengers using London stations by origin/destination 2037 in the Atkins report. This shows for HS2 with OOC:

to/from Greater London 125,000​
to/from Heathrow 1,100​
to/from non-London 21,400​
Total 148,000​

So every GW fast service is being slowed up to allow 0.74% - fewer than one in a hundred - of all HS2 passengers to use a Hex service to Heathrow because if one Hex train stops at OOC every other train has to do so as well.

This is indefensible.
It would indeed be indefensible, if it was actually what those figures are saying. However, they aren't.

What's that third sub-total "non-London"? Don't you think that that would include flows to Reading, Slough, Didcot, Swindon, etc* and so some of that 21,400 ought to be taken into consideration? You're roughly an order of magnitude out - 1 in 15 HS2 passengers or something. The GWML has several high traffic destinations and its easy to get to from HS2 - saying 10k/day to GWML destinations+Heathrow is perfectly reasonable.

And, of course, we're looking at it from the wrong angle - looking at the number of HS2 people wanting the GWML, rather than vice versa. The GWML passenger figure is lower, so that 7% becomes something like 10%. There's an argument about whether it's worth it for one in ten passengers, but its a totally different to the argument about one in a hundred. That you so obviously twisted the statistics and gamed the thing, just makes me feel like you can't make a case to non-stop trains without deliberately making the case for stopping them significantly weaker.

*OOC is going to be about 10 minutes quicker to get to than New Street from Bristol or Oxford. OOC is only slower than Curzon Street by 13 minutes for Glasgow, 20 minutes for York or Manchester, 25 minutes for Leeds and doesn't involve walking across Birmingham. Liverpool-OOC is going to be 10 minutes quicker than it takes to do Liverpool-New Street on current timings. I can't see why Bristol or Oxford flows onto HS2 at OOC are totally out of the question because of XC - similar journey time for many journeys, and many more not that much slower with that counteracted with more frequent trains and a much easier change.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
7,588
Location
Torbay
I think something we're not taking account of is the Old Oak area potentially becoming a major commercial hub in itself over time, possibly even on the scale of Canary Wharf if developers have their way. As such, it is likely to gradually gain a host of local transport connections that could provide viable access from all over west London far more convenient than having to go into Paddington for anyone heading west on GWR long-distance services. It might even to some extent be able to provide a west London parkway or at least drop-off/pick-up function for GWR that Paddington cannot hope to do realistically. For firms doing most of their business in the west of England, Old Oak could be a very attractive location for a London office, especially with direct rail services to all major towns and cities in the region, together with the direct airport and central London connections. The additional rail business from all this activity might easily offset any potential loss from a very small increase in the time to Paddington. An astute marketing approach could even quote best journey times from the west to the capital based on the Old Oak arrival time rather Paddington, on the basis that the new station will actually be 'in London'. In a city like London with the population of a small country, having more than one station for long-distance trains on a particular route can make just as much sense for the GWML as it does for HS2, even if interchange between the two lines may be minimal where that stop happens to be in the same place.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,214
I think something we're not taking account of is the Old Oak area potentially becoming a major commercial hub in itself over time, possibly even on the scale of Canary Wharf if developers have their way. As such, it is likely to gradually gain a host of local transport connections that could provide viable access from all over west London far more convenient than having to go into Paddington for anyone heading west on GWR long-distance services. It might even to some extent be able to provide a west London parkway or at least drop-off/pick-up function for GWR that Paddington cannot hope to do realistically. For firms doing most of their business in the west of England, Old Oak could be a very attractive location for a London office, especially with direct rail services to all major towns and cities in the region, together with the direct airport and central London connections. The additional rail business from all this activity might easily offset any potential loss from a very small increase in the time to Paddington. An astute marketing approach could even quote best journey times from the west to the capital based on the Old Oak arrival time rather Paddington, on the basis that the new station will actually be 'in London'. In a city like London with the population of a small country, having more than one station for long-distance trains on a particular route can make just as much sense for the GWML as it does for HS2, even if interchange between the two lines may be minimal where that stop happens to be in the same place.

Indeed.

Rather than saying "everyone going to Paddington gets 3 minutes slower", imagime how much quicker many peoples' commutes will get when their office is located at Old Oak Common, rather than the square mile.

It could turn out to be equivalent to giving Reading a 20 minute journey time to Canary Wharf.

Like London Reconnections once said, you don't design the future railway around what current passengers do. You also design it to consider the needs of future passengers who don't exist yet, who may make very different journeys.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,705
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
on the basis that the new station will actually be 'in London'

It isn't, of course, but neither really is Paddington, it's out in an inner suburb, and without onward transport isn't really convenient for anything other than cheap hotels and kebab shops. This differs rather from Euston, which is in walking distance of quite a few places people want to go for work and leisure, and has the very fast Victoria Line to take you to even more such places.
 

coppercapped

Established Member
Joined
13 Sep 2015
Messages
3,334
Location
Reading
It would indeed be indefensible, if it was actually what those figures are saying. However, they aren't.

What's that third sub-total "non-London"? Don't you think that that would include flows to Reading, Slough, Didcot, Swindon, etc* and so some of that 21,400 ought to be taken into consideration? You're roughly an order of magnitude out - 1 in 15 HS2 passengers or something. The GWML has several high traffic destinations and its easy to get to from HS2 - saying 10k/day to GWML destinations+Heathrow is perfectly reasonable.

And, of course, we're looking at it from the wrong angle - looking at the number of HS2 people wanting the GWML, rather than vice versa. The GWML passenger figure is lower, so that 7% becomes something like 10%. There's an argument about whether it's worth it for one in ten passengers, but its a totally different to the argument about one in a hundred. That you so obviously twisted the statistics and gamed the thing, just makes me feel like you can't make a case to non-stop trains without deliberately making the case for stopping them significantly weaker.

*OOC is going to be about 10 minutes quicker to get to than New Street from Bristol or Oxford. OOC is only slower than Curzon Street by 13 minutes for Glasgow, 20 minutes for York or Manchester, 25 minutes for Leeds and doesn't involve walking across Birmingham. Liverpool-OOC is going to be 10 minutes quicker than it takes to do Liverpool-New Street on current timings. I can't see why Bristol or Oxford flows onto HS2 at OOC are totally out of the question because of XC - similar journey time for many journeys, and many more not that much slower with that counteracted with more frequent trains and a much easier change.
I would suggest that you are incorrect in your analysis. The data in the Atkins report are clear and especially so in Figure 5.3. I include a screenshot showing the areas around London which will benefit from Phase 1 of HS2.

Screenshot HS2 Atkins D&AR p36.jpg

The Note to this Figure states that it shows benefits for long distance passengers only and excludes short distance passengers on the HS2 corridor which are incorporated in another model called 'PLANET South and Midlands'.

The darker the colour of the green shaded areas the greater the User benefits. The white areas have User benefits varying between minus £5 million and plus £5 million in 2037 calculated at 2011 prices. The Figure shows, as I wrote earlier, that the User benefits of HS2 accrue to the suburban area out to Reading on the Great Western route. The Atkins report makes no mention whatsoever of any User benefits accruing to passengers travelling to or from destinations past Reading. No benefits for Didcot, no benefits for Swindon and no benefits for 'etc.'. In other words there are NO measurable benefits accruing to passengers on GWR's long distance, high speed services at all from the presence of HS2 and an interchange at OOC. For these passengers there would be a time loss of four minutes or so on every journey they make.

Do you seriously think that if there were User benefits to passengers going to and from places west of Reading they would not have been included in Atkins's statistics? After all the document was produced to promote HS2's interests, every extra passenger would have improved the business case.

It is clear that Atkins' 'non-London' passengers are all those travelling to or from the green-tinted areas outside the dark green area. The dark green area closely corresponds to Greater London at the scale used in the Figure; these 21,400 passengers per day using HS2 are going to and from the paler green areas. On the GW this means Crossrail and the 2 tph outer suburban trains running on the Relief lines.

I am not an order of magnitude out and your figures are pure guesswork.
It isn't, of course, but neither really is Paddington, it's out in an inner suburb, and without onward transport isn't really convenient for anything other than cheap hotels and kebab shops. This differs rather from Euston, which is in walking distance of quite a few places people want to go for work and leisure, and has the very fast Victoria Line to take you to even more such places.
TfL's Central London Rail Termini: Analysing passengers‟ travel patterns Policy Analysis Research Report dated September 2011 suggests another truth. I include a screenshot of a Figure showing the mode used for onwards travel after arrival in London
Screenshot TfL report Onward mode.jpg
You are right in that only 12% of passengers arriving at Paddington walk to their destination. But the percentage who walk from Euston is only 8% higher at 20% in spite of all the nearby attractions that you mention. In fact the percentage of arrivals at all the termini along the Euston Road (as well as Waterloo which is very close to Westminster, also an important destination) who walk lies between 18% and 23%.

Paddington has the highest 'Other' score, of some 12%. In view of the acres of parked bicycles at Paddington I would hazard a guess that 'Other' includes a large number of bicycles. If one of the effects of Paddington lying in an inner suburb means that people use an ecologically sound form of onward transport I would have thought that should be welcomed. Maybe all the terminal stations should be moved 3/4 of a mile outwards?

Walking is the mode which varies most between the termini, from 12% at Paddington to around half at Charing Cross, Moorgate, Liverpool Street and Fenchurch Street and reaching 80% at Cannon Street. The mode of choice for the 'northern' termini is the Underground: 53% of those arriving at Euston use the Tube or sub-surface lines compared to 62% of those arriving at Paddington and 63% at Marylebone. The percentages at St. Pancras and King's Cross are lower at 48% and 49% but here 'Rail' takes a higher share because of the presence of Thameslink, some 15% in both cases. 55% of Waterloo passengers also use the Underground. The percentage of arrivals at Paddington who use the Underground is higher than at Euston or Waterloo, but the difference between all these stations taking Underground and Rail together is not significant.

In other words, some 65% to 70% of those arriving at London's principle long distance termini use the Underground or Rail for their onward journeys. London is so large that onward journeys are inevitable. Whether Paddington is half a mile further away from Trafalgar Square or half a mile closer to some other destination really doesn't make any difference.

Edit: Correct typos and add missing paragraph.
 
Last edited:

si404

Established Member
Joined
28 Dec 2012
Messages
1,267
excludes short distance passengers on the HS2 corridor
Yet more exclusion of potential in your analysis...
It is clear that Atkins' 'non-London' passengers are all those travelling to or from the green-tinted areas outside the dark green area. The dark green area closely corresponds to Greater London at the scale used in the Figure
The Dark Green area isn't Greater London - compare with a map showing boundaries!

There's two patches of green outside Greater London - one in Herts consisting of Watford, Three Rivers and Dacorum, and one in Berks: Slough, Windsor & Maidenhead, Wokingham and Reading.
these 21,400 passengers per day using HS2 are going to and from the paler green areas.
So a fair percentage of them going to Reading - even if (unlikely) they were going to these 7 local authorities evenly, that's still 14% to Reading (they aren't going to take 2tph all-but-two-stops instead of 10tph all-but-two-are-non-stop on the mains) - ie 3000 passengers, giving nearly quadruple the total number you said would use the GW mains at OOC.

But, from what you are (correctly) saying, the coloration is amount of benefits, not numbers of passengers coming from/going to the area:
I include a screenshot showing the areas around London which will benefit from Phase 1 of HS2.
In which case the WCML corridor through Watford, Kings Langley (in Three Rivers), and Hemel, Berko and Tring (in Dacorum) will benefit additionally from released capacity, so little wonder they are light green (I think the OOC-Tring branch of Crossrail is assumed, given the 2012 date of the report). That just means more journeys to/from Reading, even before you deal with it being the node most people in Wokingham borough (rather than Twyford) would use en-route to OOC.
I am not an order of magnitude out and your figures are pure guesswork.
My figures may be guesswork, but they are based on the data - unlike yours which have completely and utterly misread the data in several different ways (as I've pointed out). The figure is going to be nearer 10,000/day than your 1,100/day.
No benefits for Didcot, no benefits for Swindon and no benefits for 'etc.'.
You are saying that there's benefits for Twyford, but not Taplow, from having the interchange at OOC? You suggest there's benefits for Bromley, and big ones for Enfield, but nothing for Croydon or Newham? Again, you misread the document. Per the key on Figure 5.3, white is simply less than £5,000,000/user in benefits over 60 years - not necessarily 'no benefit'.

It's quite obvious that the ability to change at OOC for Birmingham and the North isn't that game-changing for places west of Reading. That the benefits aren't as high doesn't mean that people won't be changing there.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top