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Trams in York?

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HST43257

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Hi everyone - I have spent the past few months spending my free time looking at possible light rail/tram-train solutions to relieve the congestion created by commuters and shoppers. After much analysis, I’ve come up with a few ideas for lines, with opening happening in 2 phases. Just to make it clear, the colours for the names are random and they are just a code for the route basically.

Phase 1

BLUE LINE: Askham Bar - Haxby
This line would replace the number 3 bus. It would start at the existing Askham Bar Park and Ride site before taking the current bus only route towards the tesco, where there would also be a station. The tram then heads into town, on the network rail road that runs alongside the East Coast Main Line, with stops at major housing areas and making use of current Network Rail Access Points (like the one at Nelson’s Lane). All the way until, just before the station, the tram follows the Up Main Line (London Southbound Line) until it goes to the right and into the station tram stop, in the portico where the taxi rank is currently. The taxis are already planned to be relocated as part of the York Station Front Redevelopment. After the rail station, the tram would join the road, which would be public transport only. It heads down Rougier Street and over Ouse Bridge before turning left off High Ousegate onto Parliament Street. After this, the tram would head toward the Theatre Royal via St Helens Square and Blake Street. It would then take Gillygate and Wigginton Road to get to York Hospital, after which the tram would turn left then right onto the York to Scarborough heavy rail line, where tram and train would share the same tracks. It would call at a parkway which would be built just north of New Earswick or south of Haxby, serving the B1363 and the A1237. After that stop, the tram enters a 1 way system. The northbound line goes off to the left at the first level crossing and turns left again onto Eastfield Avenue, before turning round to the right to go onto Oak Tree Lane. It would follow the road round as it turns into Greenshaw Drive until it takes 2 right turns in quick succession onto The Village. This is where most of the shops in Haxby are. After this, it rejoins the Scarborough Line near the site of the old railway station in Haxby. It then uses the Scarborough Line to complete that loop, enforce heading back towards town and Askham Bar.

GREEN LINE: Poppleton - Dunnington
This line would start with a small branch from Poppleton Bar to the Harrogate Line, which would be fully double track and electrified as part of its own upgrade. It would use the same tracks as the National Rail Services (like on the Haxby side on the Blue Line), serving Poppleton Station, the Millfield Lane area and York Business Park - plus a new housing development that might pop up around there. Just before Skelton Junction, it would go off to the right to go into the existing sidings off the ECML slow lines. You can use the Network Rail Access Point for a station at Ouseacres, from where the railway can run fast along the rest of the sidings to Water End Bridge, where there would be a station. From here the tram would go straight through the upcoming York Central Development towards the new planned western concourse at York Station before heading towards the NRM and through Leeman Road Tunnel. After this it would join the other route at Rougier Street and use the same tracks until the point where the other line turns left down parliament street. Instead, this line would go down The Stonebow and right along Foss Islands Road and left onto that bit of road that only buses can go on next to the Morrison’s car park. From here, you’d go straight on and onto part of the old Derwent Valley Railway, which historically went all the way to Hull via Elvington. The tram would follow this line, serving houses and shops in the Heworth, Tang Hall, Derwenthorpe and Osbaldwick areas. This alignment could still stay as a cycle path as well. There would be a Parkway station as well near Murton to serve the A64, A166 and A1079 (I don’t feel Grimston Bar does a good enough job). This line would then use the existing tracks on the remaining part of the Derwent Valley Railway to go under the A64 before heading towards Dunnington, where it heads onto York Road. There are 3 stations in Dunnington. One on York Road, one in the centre on York Street and one on Petercroft Lane, where the tram terminates. I’ve looked at extending through to Stamford Bridge but I don’t believe it’s worth it.

Phase 2

PURPLE THEN YELLOW LINE: York Central - Derwent Valley Loop - Bishopthorpe Road
The first part of this line uses mostly phase 1 track. It would start with a branch from the Phoenix Boulevard area, round past Carlisle Street Car Park and joining up with the Green Line through the York Central Development. It would follow the Green Line up to High Ousegate, where the Purple Line follows the Blue Line as far as the Theatre Royal, where, instead of going down Gillygate, this line goes down the A19, serving Bootham, before turning right onto the Scarborough Line, where the Scarborough Lime would be single track and the tram would be single as well. This isn’t a long stretch of track so should be ok. It serves York Hospital and the Burton Stone Lane housing area. Following the old alignment, the tram would come off the Scarborough Line onto the Derwent Valley Railway (a different part to the Green Line). This part would curve round,serving parts of Wigginton Road, Haxby Road and Huntington Road before coming back in towards James Street and Foss Islands, where it would use the Green Line tracks to go back into town. It would go to the east side of the station instead of west and it would turn left onto Queen Street and continue down Nunnery Lane before turning right down a pedestrianised Bishopthorpe Road (as far as Scarcroft Road) before continuing on the same road as far as Balmoral Terrace. From here, another 1 way too system starts. In the direction we are going, the tram would keep going down Bishopthorpe Road as far as the new houses, flats and apartments on the old Terry’s works to the right as well as a small-ish Park and Ride site to the left. The tram would turn right to go through a different part of the Terry’s development, before taking a sharp right turn onto the higher level path past the main York Racecourse building. From here it would go straight across onto (or next to) Knavesmire Crescent, before turning right onto Queen Victoria Street, which turns into Balmoral Terrace, where the loop would end as the tram joins back up onto Bishopthorpe Road.

RED LINE: Acomb - Monks Cross
This line, like many of the others, starts at a Park and Ride site, this one west of Chapelfields, which would be served on the south side by the tram, as it travels along Grange Lane. It would continue, past Ridgeway, onto Front Street and past Acomb Library. It would then go on through the bit of road where cars can only go at certain times, before coming onto Acomb Road, past the Co-op and West Bank Park towards Holgate Road, which it goes along as far as Dalton Terrace before taking a sharp left then right turn onto the same tracks as the Blue Line, which it follows into town before this line heads out to Foss Islands then a small bit of Derwent Vallet before joining Heworth Green and going straight on at the roundabout to go onto Stockton Lane, where there would be a couple of stops before the tram turns left (after Heworth Methodist Church) to go through the fields to Monks Cross. It would go by the existing Park and Ride site, which also serves shops like John Lewis and M&S, and also it would pass the brand new York Community Stadium & Lesiure Centre, which I believe is sponsored by LNER or something. Anyway, it would continue round past Sainsbury’s and onto the circular bus route which the number 9 bus currently uses before coming back past the stadium and the park and ride and heading back towards town and Acomb.

Tell me what you think of all of this below!
 
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Grumpy

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Interesting.
Why not start your Poppleton line back at Harrogate railway station and take over the present rail service between Knaresborough and York? Leeds-Knaresborough to remain heavy rail. Install overhead electrification between Harrogate and Skelton-but to a suitable standard (750 v dc overhead?) for trams-not Network Rail specified 25k ac suitable for 140mph trains Buy dual voltage trams so as to use the existing overhead from Skelton down the goods lines into York
 

HST43257

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York
Interesting.
Why not start your Poppleton line back at Harrogate railway station and take over the present rail service between Knaresborough and York? Leeds-Knaresborough to remain heavy rail. Install overhead electrification between Harrogate and Skelton-but to a suitable standard (750 v dc overhead?) for trams-not Network Rail specified 25k ac suitable for 140mph trains Buy dual voltage trams so as to use the existing overhead from Skelton down the goods lines into York

Personally I’d rather see 6tph Leeds - York via Harrogate (with varying calling patterns) operated by 319s or something so I’d say the 25k AC would need using. If this did happen (alongside the 319’s service) you’d have to have this line to poppleton bar as well other a junction facing both sides and I’d probs take it onto the streets in the area of the new hammerton and Cattal development where something 3,000 houses are going to be built. Though it may not need all 6tph. Maybe 3tph could go onto Knaresborough and onto the streets there, thus speeding up the 319 services - though I’m not sure about doing that at all.
 
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Neptune

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I’m sure the Harrogate line punters would be delighted with non air conditioned 3+2 seated 319’s replacing their much newer air conditioned 2+2 with tables seated class 170’s.
 

Ianno87

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I’m sure the Harrogate line punters would be delighted with non air conditioned 3+2 seated 319’s replacing their much newer air conditioned 2+2 with tables seated class 170’s.

You can get up a fair bit of speed on the line to get the air through the hopper windows :)
 

HST43257

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I’m sure the Harrogate line punters would be delighted with non air conditioned 3+2 seated 319’s replacing their much newer air conditioned 2+2 with tables seated class 170’s.

The main thing is that the line would get an upgrade to 100mph wherever possible and full double track and 25kv AC OHLE electrification with a fair bit of skip stopping and 6tph - you’d probably have 18x 319s on the line with 16 in operation each day. I’d be interested in perhaps a mini depot for them in the sidings North of York that I’ve talked about (not on the tram lines which would be the furthest 2 from the mainline).
 

D365

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There’s 19 Class 365s currently sitting around out of use. There’s also the “Renatus“ Class 321s that will soon be available. Even if we were to see significant electrification this decade, I think the standard Class 319s have done their time.
 

HST43257

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Very interesting.
There’s 19 Class 365s currently sitting around out of use. There’s also the “Renatus“ Class 321s that will soon be available. Even if we were to see significant electrification this decade, I think the standard Class 319s have done their time.

Ah I didn’t know about that - All 19 Class 365s could go to northern and that would make it even better!
 

markindurham

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Extending to Stamford Bridge not worth it? Really? I suspect that many residents of Stamford Bridge would be delighted to have a tram service to York, rather than the overcrowded and slow A166/A1079 - which is the same for cars and the present #10 bus, of course.
 

HST43257

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Extending to Stamford Bridge not worth it? Really? I suspect that many residents of Stamford Bridge would be delighted to have a tram service to York, rather than the overcrowded and slow A166/A1079 - which is the same for cars and the present #10 bus, of course.

I feel like that the extra distance isn’t worth it, given it’s a fairly long distance (Dunnington is about halfway from York to Stamford Bridge). The new parkway would have a direct link to the A64 roundabout, meaning there’s no need for lots of congestion once the A1079 and A166 have joined, like you currently have with Grimston Bar.
 

markindurham

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I feel like that the extra distance isn’t worth it, given it’s a fairly long distance (Dunnington is about halfway from York to Stamford Bridge). The new parkway would have a direct link to the A64 roundabout, meaning there’s no need for lots of congestion once the A1079 and A166 have joined, like you currently have with Grimston Bar.
Mmm, we will have to agree to disagree here, I think. I have family and friends in Stamford Bridge, (and indeed in Dunnington), and I'm not convinced that they, or others in Stamford Bridge, would want to fire up the car for a short trip, to then park up and change onto a tram. I've argued for years that, given that the trackbed on the other side of the level crossing to Stamford Bridge station has been built on, rebuilding the railway to the old station would probably have a favourable BCR, given how the village has grown since 1965, but it could equally serve well as a tram terminus.
 

Bald Rick

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This is odd, as about 20 years ago I had a similar thought about a tram from Askham Bar into the city as a higher capacity / quicker / more reliable version of the P&R. With a stop at St Helens Rd for the Fox (now the Cross Keys).

However I realised that the sums couldn’t stack up.
 

Anvil1984

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The main thing is that the line would get an upgrade to 100mph wherever possible and full double track and 25kv AC OHLE electrification with a fair bit of skip stopping and 6tph - you’d probably have 18x 319s on the line with 16 in operation each day. I’d be interested in perhaps a mini depot for them in the sidings North of York that I’ve talked about (not on the tram lines which would be the furthest 2 from the mainline).

Going off topics of trams but Harrogate line, 100 mph operation. Really?? With 38 miles and 14 stations its really not needed.
 

HST43257

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Mmm, we will have to agree to disagree here, I think. I have family and friends in Stamford Bridge, (and indeed in Dunnington), and I'm not convinced that they, or others in Stamford Bridge, would want to fire up the car for a short trip, to then park up and change onto a tram. I've argued for years that, given that the trackbed on the other side of the level crossing to Stamford Bridge station has been built on, rebuilding the railway to the old station would probably have a favourable BCR, given how the village has grown since 1965, but it could equally serve well as a tram terminus.

The thing is, with Coronavirus, we will not only need to make all the money back that we spend. We will have to make good profit to re-stabilise our economy. With a population of between 3.5 and 4 thousand people, I doubt you would be able to do make much money, given the distance covered between Dunnington and Stamford Bridge would be very long to not have any other stations on.
 

HST43257

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Going off topics of trams but Harrogate line, 100 mph operation. Really?? With 38 miles and 14 stations its really not needed.

As I mentioned in another response (I think) I mentioned how there would be lots of skip stopping. For example, there would be 2tph that go non stop from York to Hopperton Parkway, which would be another Park and Ride to relieve pressure coming into York and also into Leeds if a railway was built between Northallerton, Boroughbridge, Wetherby and Leeds (there is another forum for this). The Northallerton - Leeds railway would follow the A1(M) as far as Garforth heading south before coming into Leeds on a 4 track railway. It would cross the Harrogate line at this new station
 

HST43257

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I'd not complicate the Harrogate line with skip stopping. I would put the 25kV up and use high acceleration EMUs at a good frequency.

I don’t see people from Harrogate and Knaresborough wanting to take the train to York if they don’t have a fast service. I’ve made a potential timetable that I shall attach. It would be the typical hourly timetable in the peak hours and perhaps in the off peak as well. There would no longer be any LNER running to Harrogate to make the line more reliable. It is probably worth mentioning that the trains are intentionally spaced 10 minutes apart coming into York to fit in with the tram timetable. In the train timetable below there are a few more stations than currently on the line - I have potential locations but seeing as this is a tram thread I wish not to go into that. Coming into York, there would be a loop for the train, where it comes out of York towards Harrogate on the existing line (that would be 4-track) so Leeds Line don’t conflict with LNER and HS2 services until Skelton Bridge Junction and also northern Poppleton-bound services. Coming into York from Harrogate, you’d take the avoiding lines but take one side on the old triangle. It would run along the borderline of the current network rail land where the ROC is. It will run into the furthest west platform in York station (as part of the new western extension which I hope will include 2 new platforms and a brand new western concourse). The line would loop round with a 6 minute wait in case of delays.
 

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