West and South Yorkshire services post-HS2

[quantinghome]

We are starting to see some ideas coming through in the press about post-HS2 services in West and South Yorkshire. In general the idea seems to be to keep the current intercity slots and swap in different destinations. However, this fails to take full advantage of the freeing up of capacity on the existing lines. If instead we can remove intercity services entirely from existing lines it allows an intensive metro rail network to be created which will be a huge step change.

Take the Leeds - Wakefield - Doncaster/Sheffield line as an example. This should be prime commuter rail territory, but at present has only one local train an hour on each leg. Post HS2, there will still be a need for a regular direct Wakefield-London train. However, instead of providing this via Wakefield Westgate, the current Grand Central service could be increased to an hourly frequency. Leeds can maintain its connections to the ECML stations with services run via Hambleton. This would then allow a 4tph local service from Leeds to both Doncaster and Sheffield.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

We are starting to see some ideas coming through in the press about post-HS2 services in West and South Yorkshire. In general the idea seems to be to keep the current intercity slots and swap in different destinations. However, this fails to take full advantage of the freeing up of capacity on the existing lines. If instead we can remove intercity services entirely from existing lines it allows an intensive metro rail network to be created which will be a huge step change.

Take the Leeds - Wakefield - Doncaster/Sheffield line as an example. This should be prime commuter rail territory, but at present has only one local train an hour on each leg. Post HS2, there will still be a need for a regular direct Wakefield-London train. However, instead of providing this via Wakefield Westgate, the current Grand Central service could be increased to an hourly frequency. Leeds can maintain its connections to the ECML stations with services run via Hambleton. This would then allow a 4tph local service from Leeds to both Doncaster and Sheffield.

Remember HS2 and NPR services run on the existing lines 2 to London and plus any services on NPR

 

[si404]

Leeds - Doncaster fast trains are still needed: the Hallam Line doesn't provide for that.

Also 8tph at somewhere like Fitzwilliam strikes me as a bit excessive. I think 4tph to the station at the end of their leg of the Y is fine for the Wakefield line.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Post HS2 I'm not convinced there is much of a case for a frequent Wakefield to London train. I can't see it being cut completely but if Leeds wasn't where it is, there's no way Wakefield alone would justify the current 2tph it gets. It's a small market town with a big church, that rolled sixes geographically... it doesn't even have a football team!

More likely that there will still be 1-2tph "classic" London trains on the Leeds branch of the ECML, with many of them continuing to Bradford/Harrogate/Huddersfield.

I'd certainly think there's a case for 2tph on the Westgate stoppers, especially if the Sheffield leg is wired, but any further paths freed (by removal of London trains and speeding up of locals by electrification) will end up being used for additional semi-fast regional services or XC, rather than stoppers.

 

[London Trains]

Post HS2 I'm not convinced there is much of a case for a frequent Wakefield to London train. I can't see it being cut completely but if Leeds wasn't where it is, there's no way Wakefield alone would justify the current 2tph it gets. It's a small market town with a big church, that rolled sixes geographically... it doesn't even have a football team!

The services also serve Doncaster to London and Leeds to Doncaster so I dont see them being reduced.

 

[Western Lord]

It's a small market town with a big church, that rolled sixes geographically... it doesn't even have a football team!

That depends on what code you're talking about!

 

[si404]

The services also serve Doncaster to London and Leeds to Doncaster so I dont see them being reduced.

I'd imagine they'd be all stops. Leeds is a good northern anchor for that service. Doncaster-London traffic would likely use other services that only stop at Peterborough. Hull or Sunderland or something.

 

[PTR 444]

Once HS2 phase 2b is completed, I doubt there will be much need for the classic LNER Leeds to London services, so maybe the 2tph could be reduced to 1tph and diverted to terminate at a different destination such as Norwich or Stansted. It would mean Wakefield Westgate would no longer have direct services to London, but nearby Kirkgate is served by Grand Central so they could increase their service to maintain a regular link to the capital. I'm not even sure if there would be much need for the XC service via Leeds to continue in its current form; Although using HS2 to get from Newcastle to Bristol would require a change at Birmingham, it would probably be somewhat quicker than the current direct service.

Therefore, if you removed the XC and one of the LNER services, you could increase the frequencies of the local Leeds - Doncaster and Leeds - Sheffield services to 2tph.

 

[Ianno87]

Post HS2 I'm not convinced there is much of a case for a frequent Wakefield to London train. I can't see it being cut completely but if Leeds wasn't where it is, there's no way Wakefield alone would justify the current 2tph it gets. It's a small market town with a big church, that rolled sixes geographically... it doesn't even have a football team!

Wakefield is a surprisingly large railhead as a "Parkway" from quite a wide area. This leg of HS2 doesn't have an equivalent Parkway type station without going all the way to East Midlands Hub (the previous route stopping at Meadowhall would have been a decent alternative for current Wakefield railheaders).

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

NPR though is planning for a parkway station for HS2 services which would rejoin the main line to Leeds at Thrunscoe as part of NPR. Its known as Dearne Valley Parkway.

 

[quantinghome]

Once HS2 phase 2b is completed, I doubt there will be much need for the classic LNER Leeds to London services, so maybe the 2tph could be reduced to 1tph and diverted to terminate at a different destination such as Norwich or Stansted. It would mean Wakefield Westgate would no longer have direct services to London, but nearby Kirkgate is served by Grand Central so they could increase their service to maintain a regular link to the capital. I'm not even sure if there would be much need for the XC service via Leeds to continue in its current form; Although using HS2 to get from Newcastle to Bristol would require a change at Birmingham, it would probably be somewhat quicker than the current direct service.

Therefore, if you removed the XC and one of the LNER services, you could increase the frequencies of the local Leeds - Doncaster and Leeds - Sheffield services to 2tph.

NPR though is planning for a parkway station for HS2 services which would rejoin the main line to Leeds at Thrunscoe as part of NPR. Its known as Dearne Valley Parkway.

This is the problem though; by maintaining some fast services on some or all of the 'classic' Leeds-Wakefield-Doncaster/Sheffield line you are still limiting its capacity - you still have the mixed railway problem. Instead, faster long distance services should be diverted elsewhere in their entirety:

- 1tph ECML Leeds-London runs east of Leeds onto ECML at Hambleton
- 1tph Grand Central gives Wakefield Kirkgate (and Pontefract, Halifax and Bradford) a regular direct London service
- XC will likely still run as a semi-fast service on the classic line from Birmingham to Sheffield but is of limited use to Leeds or York. Instead, combine it with the semi-fast service on the Hallam line - giving Wakefield and Barnsley a direct service to Brum. The XC service via Doncaster can go to Hull rather than York.

This frees up the Wakefield line for a transformative local service - 4tph from Sheffield, 4tph from Doncaster, combining to give 8tph through Wakefield Westgate. Sheffield-Leeds is served via NPR/HS2; Doncaster-Leeds has a fast service via Hambleton.

No doubt Bradford will want a direct service on HS2 to London. This can be provided either by running through at Leeds (via connection to the classic network) or on NPR via Manchester.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

This is the problem though; by maintaining some fast services on some or all of the 'classic' Leeds-Wakefield-Doncaster/Sheffield line you are still limiting its capacity - you still have the mixed railway problem. Instead, faster long distance services should be diverted elsewhere in their entirety:

- 1tph ECML Leeds-London runs east of Leeds onto ECML at Hambleton
- 1tph Grand Central gives Wakefield Kirkgate (and Pontefract, Halifax and Bradford) a regular direct London service
- XC will likely still run as a semi-fast service on the classic line from Birmingham to Sheffield but is of limited use to Leeds or York. Instead, combine it with the semi-fast service on the Hallam line - giving Wakefield and Barnsley a direct service to Brum. The XC service via Doncaster can go to Hull rather than York.

This frees up the Wakefield line for a transformative local service - 4tph from Sheffield, 4tph from Doncaster, combining to give 8tph through Wakefield Westgate. Sheffield-Leeds is served via NPR/HS2; Doncaster-Leeds has a fast service via Hambleton.

No doubt Bradford will want a direct service on HS2 to London. This can be provided either by running through at Leeds (via connection to the classic network) or on NPR via Manchester.

You could extend one of the Manchester services from London to Bradford every hour maybe the Macclesfield terminator one could be extended to Manchester and run to Bradford. You could also double the Birmingham to Manchester service to 200m + 200m and split them at Manchester Airport and run one to Bradford every two hours.

Actually, yes a XC service to Hull every hour could be a good thing.

 

[Iskra]

That depends on what code you're talking about!

LUFC are the football team of Wakefield.

 

[Bevan Price]

It is a mistake to think that HS2 to Yorkshire will kill existing services. For example, other than those living close to the proposed Toton Parkway, I think that many people in Derby or Nottingham will continue to use the "traditional" routes. A lot will prefer to use through services, rather than face the inconvenience of using a (possibly unreliable) connection to/from Toton & change of trains. Once you add "minimum connection times" to the journey time to/from Toton, you will cancel out most of any time gain from travelling by HS2.

 

[quantinghome]

It is a mistake to think that HS2 to Yorkshire will kill existing services. For example, other than those living close to the proposed Toton Parkway, I think that many people in Derby or Nottingham will continue to use the "traditional" routes. A lot will prefer to use through services, rather than face the inconvenience of using a (possibly unreliable) connection to/from Toton & change of trains. Once you add "minimum connection times" to the journey time to/from Toton, you will cancel out most of any time gain from travelling by HS2.

HS2 is going to give a 27 minute journey from Leeds to Toton. Compare that to current journey times from Leeds to Derby and Nottingham. Toton is planned to be connected to Derby and Nottingham by tram and frequent heavy rail shuttles, so no reason to think this would be inconvenient or unreliable. There may a case, just, for a direct service between Leeds and Derby on the existing route. But it's pretty slim.

Overall though, I agree - it won't kill existing services, but they will change to focus on regional connectivity rather than fast end-to-end journeys. For example there will still be a Leeds-London service, but it will probably stop at all the LNER-served stations on the route, and maybe Huntingdon and Finsbury Park as well. Likewise cross-country. I'm suggesting we need to think carefully about how these services are routed to maximise capacity freed up by HS2, rather than simply backfilling the existing service and maintaining the mixed traffic problem. Otherwise one of the biggest advantages of HS2 will be missed.

 

[HST43257]

Post Phase 2b, I’d say Wakefield should still get 2tph to London - 1tph via Kirkgate and Pontefract and then non stop from donny into kgx, with it coming from Bradford every 2 hours and Huddersfield on the other hours. There would also be 1tph via Westgate that could also call at Adwick or somewhere. The other 1tph could be a London - Sheffield train that comes off the ECML at Retford and gives a London service to places like Worksop and Shireoaks.

If Welwyn North got 4 tracks, there would be room for a fair few more services (at least 6tph) and 2 of these could be extra Nottingham services (via ecml 2tph) to take pressure off the MML.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

You could extend one of the Manchester services from London to Bradford every hour maybe the Macclesfield terminator one could be extended to Manchester and run to Bradford. You could also double the Birmingham to Manchester service to 200m + 200m and split them at Manchester Airport and run one to Bradford every two hours.

Actually, yes a XC service to Hull every hour could be a good thing.

sorry. What?!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

sorry. What?!

You could extend the Manchester to London hs2 service to run to Bradford.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

You could extend the Manchester to London hs2 service to run to Bradford.

Is that remotely sensible?