AP ticket, train curtailed and booked route blocked

[gingerheid]

I'm at Newcastle but would like to be going to Glasgow.

The sensible thing would have been for them to let me go on the 1024 to Carlisle and travel that way, but they wouldn't let me as "it's a different company".

I tried to bluff and confidently told them I knew they should as my booked train had been cancelled, but they phoned someone who said they definitely wouldn't.

Was this right?

 

[First class]

Yes. It is right.

Your AP ticket is only valid with booked operator. Hard luck unfortunately, but you could claim delay vouchers within 28 days by writing in...

--if the route is blocked, then you obviously need to find a member of staff to find out what arrangements are being made, (buses etc).

 

[Ferret]

I'm at Newcastle but would like to be going to Glasgow.

The sensible thing would have been for them to let me go on the 1024 to Carlisle and travel that way, but they wouldn't let me as "it's a different company".

I tried to bluff and confidently told them I knew they should as my booked train had been cancelled, but they phoned someone who said they definitely wouldn't.

Was this right?

Well, it's down to the affected TOC to arrange ticket acceptance with other operators. XC were accepting East Coast tickets yesterday when it all went Pete Tong at Durham yesterday afternoon. However, if it's just one train that's been canned then unfortunately you have to wait for the next train provided by that operator.

 

[yorkie]

It's debatable, but if they do not let you go via a route that will minimise your delay, then they are only increasing the amount of delay compensation that you will be due.

Usually there would be another EC train along in half an hour and then it's a frequent service to Glasgow Queen St, and the walk to Central doesn't take too long, there is also a free bus. So it probably wouldn't be much slower than going via Carlisle.

In this case, with the line being blocked, it may have made sense to send you via Carlisle. Did you get the 1109? This got to Edinburgh at 1248, and Queen St at 1349. Going via Carlisle would have got you there at 1258.

This is an example of why privatisation (or at least the way it was implemented) was a bad idea.

I bet the Carlisle - Glasgow heavily subsidised Virgin train would have been 70% empty too, while the EC train would have been bursting. Oh well, it keeps the TOCs happy. Passengers are considered to be an inconvenience to the running of the railway!

 

[gingerheid]

Thanks for the replies.

What happened was that I got a lovely seat on the floor of the next train to Edinburgh, where I sat and quietly fumed at the awful nature of rail privatisation.

I then got to Edinburgh, where I fully expected to take the next Scotrail service to Glasgow as you've described.

I then got hit with the same story again. Scotrail was the wrong company, my ticket was EC only all the way to Glasgow, and I had to take an EC train (even though in most cases and including the return journey Scotrail would have provided the part of the journey between Edinburgh and Glasgow). Restrictions had only lifted to allow people to use XC trains and vice versa, not Scotrail. I was to wait for the next EC (2 hours after my original train) or XC (there aren't any) journey from Edinburgh to Glasgow and take that. I did get a Scotrail train in the end, but missed one while arguing.

Not happy. I go by train from close enough to Stansted Airport to halfway between Prestwick and Glasgow airports because I want to avoid Ryanair style customer service experiences, not to benefit from them, and I invariably pay more if I go by train then I would have if I'd flown.

 

[yorkie]

That's unacceptable. I recommend you write to your MP (as well as EC, FSR, and any other company whose employees were obstructive, plus Passenger Focus). What party is your MP from?

Was your ticket a 'Reader offer' ticket? The only Advance tickets I can find are EC & Connections.

 

[tony_mac]

The advance ticket rules say that if you miss a connection then you can take the 'next available train'.

It could be implied that you have to stick to the original TOC, but it certainly isn't clearly stated, as it should be.

Unfortunately, in the case of the original departure, the only information given is 'special arrangements will be made'. Helpful! (I wonder if this is one case where the OfT should intervene, that is clearly meaningless and creates a significant imbalance in the rights of the parties).

 

[yorkie]

More details would be useful. Ticket type, price paid, booked vs actual departure/arrival times. Send me a PM if you like.

 

[Scotrail84]

Thanks for the replies.

What happened was that I got a lovely seat on the floor of the next train to Edinburgh, where I sat and quietly fumed at the awful nature of rail privatisation.

I then got to Edinburgh, where I fully expected to take the next Scotrail service to Glasgow as you've described.
I then got hit with the same story again. Scotrail was the wrong company, my ticket was EC only all the way to Glasgow, and I had to take an EC train (even though in most cases and including the return journey Scotrail would have provided the part of the journey between Edinburgh and Glasgow). Restrictions had only lifted to allow people to use XC trains and vice versa, not Scotrail. I was to wait for the next EC (2 hours after my original train) or XC (there aren't any) journey from Edinburgh to Glasgow and take that. I did get a Scotrail train in the end, but missed one while arguing.

Not happy. I go by train from close enough to Stansted Airport to halfway between Prestwick and Glasgow airports because I want to avoid Ryanair style customer service experiences, not to benefit from them, and I invariably pay more if I go by train then I would have if I'd flown.

If your ticket says EC only then it means EC only(cheaper than any permitted). You see Scotrail dont get a penny for carrying you to Glasgow because your ticket is for another company and they get all the money for the ticket so Scotrail would effectively be taking you to Glasgow for nothing. Even if you are excessed up to the any permitted fare it gets divided between the companies. Therefor a new ticket should have been purchased for that leg of the journey mate. Pain in the erse i know but thats the railway for you.

 

[gingerheid]

Yorkie:

Thanks for the reply - I will be complaining! I think my MP is a Lib Dem and new in the job, so I'll see if they're any use...

I think I was unlucky in that I happened to find Edinburgh's resident jobsworth, but even so. Whether they were technically right or not you'd think they could have seen sense.

I also get the idea that I fell into unlucky circumstances in a few ways. Firstly only people going to or via Glasgow and who were disrupted at Newcastle would want to consider going via Carlisle (and it made sense at the time, when there was one a few mins later, when they were saying the line was blocked, and when they didn't know when it would reopen).

Secondly, only people booked on one of very few direct services going past Edinburgh wouldn't have had a Scotrail connection in the first place anyway, therefore a Scotrail jobsworth would normally have been expecting to see them on a Scotrail train anyway.

Ticket was an advance purchase single, headed "VALID ONLY WITH RESERVATIONS"

Ticket type is shown as advance, it was from Cambridge to Ayrshire, shows discount 11%, and cost £33.40.

The East Coast leg of the journey started in Peterborough at 0746, the train terminating short at Newcastle at 1008 where it then formed the 103x to London KX).

The reservation was for the same train, but was for the whole way to Glasgow C obviously.

Scotrail84:

Yes, the railway is a pain in the arse. That's why I probably won't use it again until I've forgotten, or until easyJet have given me a bigger pain in the arse.

I'll get the delay repay thingy obviously, and it's as well I will, though it's just typical that it happened in the half of the journey for which I paid the least!

It has made me think of a disrupted Cross Country journey, where they reissued my ticket from somewhere in Yorkshire to Haddenham & Thame via Leamington to be to Oxford, as the late running train was going to miss the hourly connection in the evening, and as I could get the same bus as I was going to get at Haddenham from Oxford more conveniently. They then reissued it again it on the original route when it turned out that the Haddenham & Thame train was delayed behind the XC train. Now that was a helpful person that gave the railway a good name and encouraged me to decide that going by train was definitely less stress than hiring a car when I did that journey again!

 

[Ferret]

The advance ticket rules say that if you miss a connection then you can take the 'next available train'.

It could be implied that you have to stick to the original TOC, but it certainly isn't clearly stated, as it should be.

Unfortunately, in the case of the original departure, the only information given is 'special arrangements will be made'. Helpful! (I wonder if this is one case where the OfT should intervene, that is clearly meaningless and creates a significant imbalance in the rights of the parties).

Tony, if it says EC only on the ticket then that's a significant clue as to whose trains you can use it on. If one train is caped then you've no automatic right to use a different TOC's service. As Yorkie observes, it's an undfortunate consequence of privatisation.

 

[yorkie]

Ticket was an advance purchase single, headed "VALID ONLY WITH RESERVATIONS"

I wanted the route, but...

Ticket type is shown as advance, it was from Cambridge to Ayrshire, shows discount 11%, and cost £33.40.

This proves it was not EC only. It was EC & Connections. It most certainly is valid on FSR. I suggest you complain to FSR. I hope you got the name of the person who was obstructive?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I experienced a similar cancellation on an AP in the opposite direction - Glasgow Central to Newcastle. But it was the last EC service of the day, so all passengers were instructed to travel Scotrail to Motherwell where taxis would take us onwards (at the company's expense, of course).

(Funnily, the taxi drivers hadn't been warned that they'd be driving through to night to places as far as Doncaster and back!)

 

[tony_mac]

Tony, if it says EC only on the ticket then that's a significant clue as to whose trains you can use it on. If one train is caped then you've no automatic right to use a different TOC's service. As Yorkie observes, it's an undfortunate consequence of privatisation.

It probably says EC & connections. But anyway, it is what you said - a clue - it is not clear and conclusive, as consumer contracts should be.

The rules say 'take the next available train', without either rule being given precedence over the other. There are circumstance when it definitely would be accepted on other TOCs (to avoid being stranded overnight etc.).

Regardless of the rules, it is still extremely poor customer service.

 

[Greenback]

I can understand why the OP was not permitted to go via Carlisle, but I don't enderstand the problem they encountered in Scotland. That is poor customer service, which serves only to bring the railways into disrepute. It's bad enoguh to be delayed on a journey, without obstinance forcing a further two hour delay on to the hapless passenger.

 

[gingerheid]

Thanks for all thoughts and replies!

I think the conclusion is that it's a dog's dinner and that sadly enough, the solution is to keep arguing!

Sadly I didn't get the name of the FSR person in Edinburgh; wasn't really thinking about it that way at the time and after seeing the posts people had made in reply to my original one I thought they may even be right.

I shall complain to all concerned, on the basis that lifting restrictions needs to mean lifting more restrictions, as they have forgotten about Glasgow. And I expect they'll ignore me or send some meaningless platitudes...

 

[CarterUSM]

It will be a moot point from next year anyway when east coast pull out from Glasgow.

 

[yorkie]

I shall complain to all concerned, on the basis that lifting restrictions needs to mean lifting more restrictions, as they have forgotten about Glasgow. And I expect they'll ignore me or send some meaningless platitudes...

There is no 'restriction' to be lifted. EC & Connections tickets to Glasgow are valid on FSR services between Edinburgh & Glasgow. If you book on a train that happens to go to Glasgow but want to get a 'suggested' FSR service, simply specify via somewhere like Falkirk High or Croy, and it will happily route you that way.

I am totally opposed to barriers, unless they are used for suburban/inter-urban services AND the barrier staff are never rude, never obstructive, always helpful, and do not refuse valid tickets. Only if such conditions are met should barriers be allowed.

I'd write to EC about the delay and ask what they are going to do about FSR being obstructive? Your delay will probably be long enough to get a full refund on both outward and return journeys as a result of that.

I would also separately write to FSR giving as much info as possible so they can identify the miscreant, and ask what they are going to do about it. Make it clear your ticket was routed East Coast & Connections and that the member of staff refused to accept that & Connections means that it is also valid for connecting services.

Don't accept being fobbed off!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It will be a moot point from next year anyway when east coast pull out from Glasgow.

The barrier jobsworth may just say you have to wait several years until they are re-instated Well, hopefully not as he'll have got a ticking off...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can understand why the OP was not permitted to go via Carlisle, but I don't enderstand the problem they encountered in Scotland. That is poor customer service, which serves only to bring the railways into disrepute. It's bad enoguh to be delayed on a journey, without obstinance forcing a further two hour delay on to the hapless passenger.

Agreed. Fortunately I've not experienced anything like this, but if I did, I would not have accepted it. I'd have insisted on seeing a manager. If time was tight, I'd have got any random train to Haymarket that wasn't obstructed by that particular barrier, and changed there, after noting his name for a complaint later.

 

[gingerheid]

A little update...

I think this journey was cursed.

I submitted the delay repay claim online, and got an initial confirmation stating that a further confirmation with reference number would follow within 24 hours. 5 days later it hadn't, so I phoned them as the e-mail requested.

They denied having received the claim (!!!) and said I should post it to them???

 

[yorkie]

Take a photocopy of the tickets before posting them! Just in case

 

[gingerheid]

Actually...

I got my vouchers today, which was really quite quick

Oh well - a good mixture of good and bad service!