Ideas and predictions for trains serving Old Oak Common station

[Mikey C]

Most European express services have always required a seat reservation, one of the annoyances from Interrail trips in my youth!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most European express services have always required a seat reservation, one of the annoyances from Interrail trips in my youth!

It has upsides and downsides. But with 400m trains, like Eurostar it's unlikely you will encounter one being full.

 

[JonathanH]

It has upsides and downsides. But with 400m trains, like Eurostar it's unlikely you will encounter one being full.

One of the main downsides being that on a lightly loaded train you get booked in a really busy coach and can't choose your seat. I think it would almost be better to allow 'counted places' on lightly loaded services rather than a fixed seat.

 

[Ianno87]

On current plan, HS2 services will "all seated" like an aeroplane, not "ticket to ride" like the bus/tube/classic rail. So one would have to get to station, buy a ticket before the service is "closed out," get to platform, wait for designated trains, board and ride. Methinks chances are that will take longer than hopping on Crossrail and it seems unlikely I'll be allowed passage using my Oyster!

It's mildly amusing to contemplate how they might police this - will their be "bouncers" checking tickets at every passenger door...? At one time they were talking about "virtual" rather than physical ticket barriers (though it's interesting to look at some of the plans/renders of stations in light of that - some of them seem to have gatelines.)

What’s your evidence for that, “like an aeroplane”other than posts by members here?

Don't forget, we now live in the future. There'll be no need to get to the station from the helpful clerk at the booking office to stamp an Edmonson ticket.

Get the smartphone App loaded and buying your ticket, pick your seat as you walk along Euston Rd


Edit: As for 'bouncers', the TGV model is to scan your ticket barcode as you enter the platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the main downsides being that on a lightly loaded train you get booked in a really busy coach and can't choose your seat. I think it would almost be better to allow 'counted places' on lightly loaded services rather than a fixed seat.

I would be absolutely astonished if seat selection is not offered, even if it's at a small premium.

 

[JonathanH]

I would be absolutely astonished if seat selection is not offered, even if it's at a small premium.

I would be astonished as well but on a lightly loaded train you often want to sit in your own space rather than all crowded in one carriage.

 

[Ianno87]

I would be astonished as well but on a lightly loaded train you often want to sit in your own space rather than all crowded in one carriage.

It's not beyond the wit of software to program spreading of reservations along the train.

In fact, that would likely be almost essential somewhere like Old Oak Common to spread boarding passengers around all the available doors rather than taking forever as everybody only gets on through two doors.

 

[London Trains]

Honestly I really hope train/seat reservations are not compulsory - if travelling to Birmingham or Manchester I'd really like the option to just show up at Euston whenever on an off peak ticket and join any train. And to anyone saying reserve as you are travelling to Euston - what if you're on the tube?

My idea would be this:

With trains being 400m, so unlikely to ever be totally full, I would rather there were no seat reservations, or advance tickets. I would rather only have off peak (10am onwards departure on weekdays, no evening or weekend restrictions) and anytime tickets.

The ticketing would be simple, either online or at a machine, select the amount of people, railcards and then either an off peak or anytime ticket. Weekly, monthly and annual season tickets would be available too. There would not be through ticketing onto non HS2 services with my idea.

Hopefully with the length of the trains providing lots of capacity, fares can be much much lower, to the level of off peak fares being cheaper than some current advances on Avanti/EMR/LNER/XC.

Also, Oyster would be available from Euston to OOC with a small supplement.

 

[coppercapped]

When we solely relied on 'skilled drivers', SPADs were much more commonplace. Technology has clearly improved this.

The problem with rail is that such technology needs to be "one size fits all" to deal with a variety of conditions, most notably weather where braking performance substantially deteriorates in certain conditions, at any time of year.

I'd argue that this is a factor that uniquely affects rail, with the unique way the granularity of its operation is planned based on seconds of accuracy, far more granular than air and even moreso than roads which are a true choatic system.

I suspect that the true (FSVO 'true') answer is that the DfT could see no advantage and therefore didn't/couldn't fund the necessary research.

 

[Ianno87]

Honestly I really hope train/seat reservations are not compulsory - if travelling to Birmingham or Manchester I'd really like the option to just show up at Euston whenever on an off peak ticket and join any train. And to anyone saying reserve as you are travelling to Euston - what if you're on the tube?

Before you get on the tube, when you'll at least have some idea of what train you're aiming for

 

[CW2]

Honestly I really hope train/seat reservations are not compulsory - if travelling to Birmingham or Manchester I'd really like the option to just show up at Euston whenever on an off peak ticket and join any train. And to anyone saying reserve as you are travelling to Euston - what if you're on the tube?

As I understand it, HS2 will be a fully reservable compulsory reservations railway.

My idea would be this <snip>

Sorry, no chance. With both journey time and capacity being at a premium, with trains occupying opposite sides of an island platform every three minutes, it will be necessary to get the passengers into the correct zone of the platform to board their pre-reserved coach. There's no time to have random people bimbling up and down the platform trying to find the coach which matches the colour of their eyes, or whatever other criterion they choose. There will be a need for last-minute reservations, either by phone app or by local machine. Without a service reservation there should be no access to the platform.

Hopefully with the length of the trains providing lots of capacity, fares can be much much lower, to the level of off peak fares being cheaper than some current advances on Avanti/EMR/LNER/XC.

I have my doubts. Given the enormous cost of building HS2 in the first place, I'd expect HM Government to want to get as much cash back out of it is quickly as possible. So I'd expect the fares to be quite steep, but with reduced rate offers to fill any spare capacity.

Also, Oyster would be available from Euston to OOC with a small supplement.

No, No, Thrice NO! The platforms at OOC will be predominantly unidirectional, i.e. one Up island, 1 Down island, and an overflow bi-directional in the middle. Again, if you have about 400 - 500 people to get onto the platform and board specific coaches of a specific train, in the minimum of time, the last thing you want is a load of people blocking the doors and trying to move in the opposite direction. Your Oystercard doesn't cover you to travel on a West Coast service to Watford Junction, nor on a Eurostar to travel to Ebbsfleet. I doubt very much that the OOC stop would ever be advertised at Euston, which would probably have a similar closed-platform policy.

 

[si404]

There's various nudge/soft ways of dissuading people from using the GWML or HS2 Intercity trains for short hops that might not require an all-out ban.

• Don't advertise the departures at OOC, nor OOC stops at Euston and Paddington
• At OOC, escalators go down to the down-direction islands and up from the up-direction islands (lifts/stairs would allow access, but make it more annoying)
• Charge outlandish fares for the short hop

However there's going to be seats due to the amount using OOC. The issue is whether having both boarding and alighting muck up dwell times.

 

[London Trains]

Your Oystercard doesn't cover you to travel on a West Coast service to Watford Junction, nor on a Eurostar to travel to Ebbsfleet.

Avanti to Watford is not covered because LNWR provide it. Eurostar to Ebbsfleet is not covered because Southeastern provide it (also Oyster does not go to Ebbsfleet and it would mess up passport control at St Pancras). There is no equivalent service from OOC to Euston. And with the sheer train length and frequency of HS2, it should be an allowed journey.

 

[Purple Orange]

I have my doubts. Given the enormous cost of building HS2 in the first place, I'd expect HM Government to want to get as much cash back out of it is quickly as possible. So I'd expect the fares to be quite steep, but with reduced rate offers to fill any spare capacity.

Commercially, it makes very little sense to hike prices disproportionately high compared to today (inflation adjusted). There will be roughly 17,000 seats to fill each hour and the quickest way to recover investment is to get those seats filled.

Also if it is a Tory government at the wheel once it’s fully operational there is a good chance the government will sell it off.

 

[HSTEd]

As I understand it, HS2 will be a fully reservable compulsory reservations railway.

This is in direct opposition to:

I have my doubts. Given the enormous cost of building HS2 in the first place, I'd expect HM Government to want to get as much cash back out of it is quickly as possible. So I'd expect the fares to be quite steep, but with reduced rate offers to fill any spare capacity.

The best way for HS2 to make money is to pile it high and sell it cheap.
The marginal cost of adding more capacity is tiny.

THey want everyone they can to use it and not use the classic service that will bleed huge subsidies for every passenger it carries.

Sorry, no chance. With both journey time and capacity being at a premium, with trains occupying opposite sides of an island platform every three minutes, it will be necessary to get the passengers into the correct zone of the platform to board their pre-reserved coach. There's no time to have random people bimbling up and down the platform trying to find the coach which matches the colour of their eyes, or whatever other criterion they choose. There will be a need for last-minute reservations, either by phone app or by local machine. Without a service reservation there should be no access to the platform.

OOC is to have 3 platforms per direction. So six trains per hour per platform.


Dwell times are not gonig to be a problem in any reasonable service situation.
Even with a platform out of service due to a cripple its going to be a platform cycle time of above 6 minutes.

With proper signalling there is no constraint worth mentioning there.
This is emphatically not Thameslink.

 

[CW2]

There's no contradiction between HS2 being fully (compulsory) reservable and running a high capacity railway, providing that technology is in place for last minute issue / alteration of reservations. Definitly no local Euston - OOC journeys though.

I'm no expert in the realm of ticket pricing, but the basic principle (in the UK) is one of yield management. One the one hand, you don't want to set the fares so high that there are acres of empty seats. On the other hand, you don't want to set the fares levels too low, so that you are losing revenue. So it won't be a one-size-fits-all solution of pile it high, sell it cheap.

OOC station has 3 islands = 6 platform faces, as described. However it is unlikely that these will be equally used. The outside islands can be configured southbound only and northbound only, with escalator access / egress being one-way only. This will be necessary to cope with the expected large number of passengers per train (up to 400 in normal use).

The central island will necessarily need to be configured for use in either direction, and as such will be a non-preferred platform, as there will be a clash of passengers accessing / egressing.

So its not a simple case of 3 platforms per direction coping with 18 trains per hour = 6 trains per platform face per hour, or 1 train per 10 minutes each. Rather, I would expect the split to be more like 7/7/4 (per direction). The centre platform might also be used to turn round any severe late runners, or set failures.

Whilst 18 tph might not be Thameslink levels, you need to factor in the door spacing of the stock - we're not talking 2-leaf sliding doors at 1/3 and 2/3 spacing on a high speed service. There will be very little in the way of spare capacity in the operation here.

With 18 tph on a high speed railway, HS2 will be operating within - but close to the limit - of what is technically possible. So the entire design of the trains, platforms, stations, and ticketing/reservation system will need to be fully integrated. It will be quite challenging to get it to run reliably. Anything which might prevent that will have to be designed out as soon as possible - and that includes people trying to join at the last second without a reservation, or trying to make Euston - OOC (or v.v.) journeys.

 

[HSTEd]

There's no contradiction between HS2 being fully (compulsory) reservable and running a high capacity railway, providing that technology is in place for last minute issue / alteration of reservations. Definitly no local Euston - OOC journeys though.

But this technology is not commonly used and there is no guarantee it will function reliably.

Building your entire business model around perfect performance from such tech is a very bad idea.

Also if people want to pay a premium Euston-OOC fare on HS2.... turning them down is free income.

I'm no expert in the realm of ticket pricing, but the basic principle (in the UK) is one of yield management. One the one hand, you don't want to set the fares so high that there are acres of empty seats. On the other hand, you don't want to set the fares levels too low, so that you are losing revenue. So it won't be a one-size-fits-all solution of pile it high, sell it cheap.

It is not clear where the Laffer curve peak lies, as you say, but it is likely to be heavily towards cheap seats.
Especially on journeys like Manchester and Birmingham-London where the short journey times will lead to potentially huge quantities of induced demand.

OOC station has 3 islands = 6 platform faces, as described. However it is unlikely that these will be equally used. The outside islands can be configured southbound only and northbound only, with escalator access / egress being one-way only. This will be necessary to cope with the expected large number of passengers per train (up to 400 in normal use).

The central island will necessarily need to be configured for use in either direction, and as such will be a non-preferred platform, as there will be a clash of passengers accessing / egressing.

Given that this is a brand new station..... why are we not just providing additional lift/escalator capacity?
The cost of additional escalators is going to be negligible compared to the price of the scheme.

So its not a simple case of 3 platforms per direction coping with 18 trains per hour = 6 trains per platform face per hour, or 1 train per 10 minutes each. Rather, I would expect the split to be more like 7/7/4 (per direction). The centre platform might also be used to turn round any severe late runners, or set failures.

Unless you are suggesting that there will be only one escalator on each platform island, escalator capacity should be largely divisible between up and down directions.
If you are moving 1000 people up a set of escalators, assuming you have more than one, you can probably equally easily move 500 down and 500 up.

In this case all the people going upwards will be from one platform face, and all the people downward will be going to one platform face - the crossovers that cause problems at other stations still don't apply.
You can even draw a line down the centre of the island and put up signs asking people not to cross this line if they can avoid it.

Whilst 18 tph might not be Thameslink levels, you need to factor in the door spacing of the stock - we're not talking 2-leaf sliding doors at 1/3 and 2/3 spacing on a high speed service. There will be very little in the way of spare capacity in the operation here.

If door position is truly a huge issue, then why aren't we?
Such stock exists?

The Class 395 shows that such a layout is certainly possible.

Anything which might prevent that will have to be designed out as soon as possible - and that includes people trying to join at the last second without a reservation, or trying to make Euston - OOC (or v.v.) journeys.

So how will your magical automatic reservation system, which is designed to allow people to reserve at the last minute, prevent people running to join trains at the last minute?

INdeed in this case reservations will actually be counterproductive.
If the train is about to depart and you don't have a reservation you will make a beeline to the first door available and walk down the train or whatever as required.

If you allow reservations via app or something else you will have people walking down the platform at the last minute trying to find their vehicle.

Unless you propose to have a check in desk and stop people presenting at the station less than a certain number of minutes before departure this reservation system does not solve your problem.
And if you do that you have just squandered journey time savings that are key to getting people to use this railway in thef irst place.

We want people to go out of their way to use HS2, every minute you squander making them wait in a holding pen at OOC makes marginal journeys flip to a non HS2 route.
Every inconvenience you put in their way does the same.

Achievable platform reoccupation time from modern signalling systems is of the order of 90 seconds, as RER A demonstrates. Even with double length trains it will be well under 3 minutes, probably closer to 2. Indeed with cab signalling at our disposal the lead vehicle of the next train will be in the platform before the last vehicle of the previous train has cleared it.

Which means even at a 7tph we have something like 6 minutes or so of dwell with doors open. Call it 4 minutes with safety margin.
You won't need that long.
Even with 400 passengers disembarking or embarking, that is only 1 passenger per metre of train length.
So like ten or eleven people per door!

EDIT:
Getting people to spread may be an issue, but having a very close to completely fixed timetable assists this.
We can advertise segments of a train as if they are separate trains.

So there is a train to Sheffield departing from platform 4A and simultaneously a train to YOrk departing from 4B, and those two platforms have different routes from the concourse.
(You might want to use different numbers rather than letters to emphasise this)

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it is compulsory reservation (which would also aid boarding times, as passengers would know where to stand in advance) then the problem with allowing Euston-OOC is that a reservation for that might block a reservation for a longer journey, thus throwing away revenue. That said, if the system was set up only to allow those to pair up with a seat reserved from OOC to points north (or a really quiet train) it would indeed be free extra revenue.

This same thing is the reason why, with compulsory reservations, seat selection needs to be chargeable, either as a small premium (even a quid would do) or by only being available on higher priced fares. If you offer it to everyone, you end up with seat 1 going to someone doing Euston-OOC and seat 2 to someone doing Crewe-Manchester, say, then someone comes along wanting Euston-Manchester and the train is "full" because there's no seat available for the through journey - if you only offer it to people who really, really want it (by way of a fee) those two can be put in the same seat and the other passenger gets one for the through journey, at least to a sufficient extent that the problem is largely avoided.

 

[London Trains]

If it is compulsory reservation (which would also aid boarding times, as passengers would know where to stand in advance) then the problem with allowing Euston-OOC is that a reservation for that might block a reservation for a longer journey, thus throwing away revenue. That said, if the system was set up only to allow those to pair up with a seat reserved from OOC to points north (or a really quiet train) it would indeed be free extra revenue.

This same thing is the reason why, with compulsory reservations, seat selection needs to be chargeable, either as a small premium (even a quid would do) or by only being available on higher priced fares. If you offer it to everyone, you end up with seat 1 going to someone doing Euston-OOC and seat 2 to someone doing Crewe-Manchester, say, then someone comes along wanting Euston-Manchester and the train is "full" because there's no seat available for the through journey - if you only offer it to people who really, really want it (by way of a fee) those two can be put in the same seat and the other passenger gets one for the through journey, at least to a sufficient extent that the problem is largely avoided.

And this is the exact reason I really hope there are no reservations. In this situation, without reservations, the Euston to OOC passenger would sit in one seat, and the Euston to Manchester in another. At Crewe (or even OOC or Birmingham Interchange), the seat of the Euston to OOC passenger would be free, so could be taken by that passenger.

Charging for seat selection is awful and would discourage a lot of passengers including me. I dont see any point of reservations, but if they must exist, I would like to be able to choose where I wanted to sit without being ripped off for it.

 

[Ianno87]

Are we mis-thinking about what the term "reservation" actually means?

You could have an e-ticket loaded on your smartphone App, with out a seat reservation or train associated with it.

As you scan the barcode on it when boarding your train as you go through the gates it assigns you a seat *there and then* (appearing on your phone screen) if one is available. If not, the gates don't open.

You could set Preferences in the App for Tables, Window Seats, etc.

Euston-Old Oak Common passengers could be accommodated on a limited basis by only assigning *aisle* seats only for seats that are to become occupied at Old Oak.

 

[HSTEd]

Euston-Old Oak Common passengers could be accommodated on a limited basis by only assigning *aisle* seats only for seats that are to become occupied at Old Oak.

I very much doubt OOC Euston passenger would even sit anyway

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are we mis-thinking about what the term "reservation" actually means?

You could have an e-ticket loaded on your smartphone App, with out a seat reservation or train associated with it.

As you scan the barcode on it when boarding your train as you go through the gates it assigns you a seat *there and then* (appearing on your phone screen) if one is available. If not, the gates don't open.

...and people pile into the back of you! The traditional way would probably be better.

 

[Ianno87]

I very much doubt OOC Euston passenger would even sit anyway

It could allocate one standee per vestibule! ("Go stand in Coach 3, Door B. Keep out of way of everybody else trying to get on!")

 

[Ianno87]

...and people pile into the back of you! The traditional way would probably be better.

Exactly the same problem with gates today. Remember HS2 stations will be huge with multile large gatelines. Would like to think it won't be a case of 1000-odd passengers all scrumming through 5 gates whilst every other paper ticket gets rejected...


It's a bit like how Eurostar gates reassugn sears when a 373 and 374 have been switched.


This would only be for people who really really really don't want to pick a seat before turning up at the station to be true 'turn up and go'.

 

[HSTEd]

Perhaps OOC should have been designed according to the Barcelona model with a platform on both sides of each track.

We could have specced staggered doors on each side of the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tgis wpuld only be for people who really really really don't want to pick a seat before turning up at the station to be true 'turn up and go'.

You could pick a seat at the station - pull out your phone, or maybe even do it at a TVM.

If you want the compulsory reservation paradigm, it's not a new thing - just use the tech already used by SNCF, RENFE, FS, Italo etc. If Avanti do end up running it, that sort of thing is what the FS part of the partnership is about.

 

[Ianno87]

You could pick a seat at the station - pull out your phone, or maybe even do it at a TVM.

If you want the compulsory reservation paradigm, it's not a new thing - just use the tech already used by SNCF, RENFE, FS, Italo etc. If Avanti do end up running it, that sort of thing is what the FS part of the partnership is about.

Precisely - it's just an extra step in the process for people just used to walking straight on with a flexible ticket. Just needs options to make it as easy as possible, i.e. picking your seat on the concourse, or running for a train departing in 5 minutes so scan your phone on the barriers to see if there's space left.

 

[CW2]

Given that this is a brand new station..... why are we not just providing additional lift/escalator capacity?
The cost of additional escalators is going to be negligible compared to the price of the scheme.

Not as simple as that. Firstly escalators are VERY expensive bits of kit. Secondly, adding escalators would mean increasing the width of the platform - especially if they are to be used as a contraflow - so suddenly we are into enlarging the entire station box.
Also allowing people on at Euston with a ticket to Old Oak Common would be an open invitation to fare dodging.

Unless you are suggesting that there will be only one escalator on each platform island, escalator capacity should be largely divisible between up and down directions.
If you are moving 1000 people up a set of escalators, assuming you have more than one, you can probably equally easily move 500 down and 500 up.

There will be multiple escalators, but all going in one direction, i.e. Up from the Up platform and Down onto the Down platform.

If door position is truly a huge issue, then why aren't we?
Such stock exists?
The Class 395 shows that such a layout is certainly possible.

There's no such high-speed stock, as far as I am aware. An inter-city ambience isn't achieved by putting noisy draughty doors in the seating area of the carriage. Why on earth would you want to compromise passenger comfort in this way?

So how will your magical automatic reservation system, which is designed to allow people to reserve at the last minute, prevent people running to join trains at the last minute. Indeed in this case reservations will actually be counterproductive. If the train is about to depart and you don't have a reservation you will make a beeline to the first door available and walk down the train or whatever as required.
If you allow reservations via app or something else you will have people walking down the platform at the last minute trying to find their vehicle.

Platform access will be fully barriered. I would suggest departure info would be taken off the screens 90 - 120 seconds before departure (just like they already do at a number of London termini).

We want people to go out of their way to use HS2, every minute you squander making them wait in a holding pen at OOC makes marginal journeys flip to a non HS2 route. Every inconvenience you put in their way does the same.

Understood. One of the prime selling points of high speed rail is punctuality. You have to have a cutoff time after which you close the barriers and prevent any late-running passengers from attempting to board. That has to be taken into account in the demand modelling. Punctuality trumps marginal last-second passenger revenue by some distance.

Achievable platform reoccupation time from modern signalling systems is of the order of 90 seconds, as RER A demonstrates. Even with double length trains it will be well under 3 minutes, probably closer to 2. Indeed with cab signalling at our disposal the lead vehicle of the next train will be in the platform before the last vehicle of the previous train has cleared it. Which means even at a 7tph we have something like 6 minutes or so of dwell with doors open. Call it 4 minutes with safety margin. You won't need that long.
Even with 400 passengers disembarking or embarking, that is only 1 passenger per metre of train length.
So like ten or eleven people per door!

HS2 trains are 400m in length.
When passing through the tunnels either side of Old Oak Common (OOC), for fire safety reasons you can only have one train in section between the ventilation shafts, which artificially elongates the track sections. The HS2 planners are confident of a 3-minute planning headway, but it will be tight.
OOC station dwell is planned as 2 minutes. Long enough to get everybody on board, but not so long as to squander end-to-end journey times.
So a typical sequence might be:
xx:06 Manchester train arrives platform 1
xx:08 Manchester train departs platform 1
xx:09 Birmingham train arrives platform 2
xx:11 Birmingham train departs platform 2
xx:12 Liverpool train arrives platform 1
xx:14 Liverpool train departs platform 1
etc.
(I can't remember which way the platform numbering works at OOC, but you get the general idea).

I don't subscribe myself, but there is an article in the Sunday Times about the HS2 ticket app here:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-promises-end-to-overcrowding-with-booking-app-sckm6wxsd

I can't find the info anywhere else at the moment. I'll keep looking.

 

[HSTEd]

Not as simple as that. Firstly escalators are VERY expensive bits of kit.

They are not going to cost enough to matter unless they are being machined from billets of silver?
Even if you spend £100m on extra escalators its a rounding error on the price of this scheme.

Secondly, adding escalators would mean increasing the width of the platform - especially if they are to be used as a contraflow - so suddenly we are into enlarging the entire station box.

Unless the boxes are being designed with single escalators in parallel, which would be a design that I have never seen used in a newbuild station in my lifetime.... we will already have platform width sufficient for two escalators

Also allowing people on at Euston with a ticket to Old Oak Common would be an open invitation to fare dodging.

90% of the places you will be able to go from Euston on HS2 will be barriered at exit.

There will be multiple escalators, but all going in one direction, i.e. Up from the Up platform and Down onto the Down platform.

Splitting the central island down the middle and running half the escalators up and half down is not giong to cause drastic problems.
After all, one platform face will be up and the other will be down.

There's no such high-speed stock, as far as I am aware. An inter-city ambience isn't achieved by putting noisy draughty doors in the seating area of the carriage. Why on earth would you want to compromise passenger comfort in this way?

Because this is not an intercity railway for the most part

From OOC the majority of passengers will be travelling on journeys not much greater than a single hour.

31 minutes to Curzon Street or Interchange
56 minutes to Manchester Airport
60 minutes dead to Manchester Picadilly
45 minutes to Toton
74 minutes to Leeds.

These really aren't intercity distances.
To pretend otherwise is the height of lunacy.

Leeds is now Norwich.
And the Class 745s have double leaf doors in the middle of the passenger accomodations........
You can also interlock vestibule doors to the outside doors so they always open when the outer doors are opened at OOC.......

You can put vestibules in the middle of the vehicle if you want after all.

Understood. One of the prime selling points of high speed rail is punctuality. You have to have a cutoff time after which you close the barriers and prevent any late-running passengers from attempting to board. That has to be taken into account in the demand modelling. Punctuality trumps marginal last-second passenger revenue by some distance.

Real people don't care if journey times vary by a minute or two.
People will care if they are denied boarding a train they could clearly get aboard.

It's just bad PR.

 

[Ianno87]

Real people don't care if journey times vary by a minute or two.
People will care if they are denied boarding a train they could clearly get aboard.

It's just bad PR.

You mean exactly how like any high performing railway treats its passengers?

People *do* care if trains are late. There's no room for hanging around waiting for stragglers to amble down manhandling their last minute Burger King purchase.

It'll be a railway that operates to seconds of accuracy, not minutes. People will need to adapt.