My opinion: children are safer if they are attending school

[Bletchleyite]

Not if they have the fear of other children, no help or comfort when they fall over, as in the nightmare scenario described in this video...

"Nightmare scenarios" are not worth watching. I see no reason they should not receive help, the person providing it would just need to wear PPE, e.g. a mask and visor.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is likely to be irrelevant for my son's nursery, who will adopting a "bubbles" approach. I.e. small groups of 6-8 kids kept contained with one or two teachers who have no contact with other teachers or groups. The kids will be encouraged not to closely interract but not "punished" if they do. And teaches will be able to assist if they have any tumbles (but they will be inside only and bot using the outside garden/playground)

Yes, I think a shorter school day and no use of the playground makes sense. Probably also no PE. That takes out almost all of the (non-toilet) accidents.

 

[Mat17]

In my honest opinion Y4, Y5 & Y6 should have been the first to go back as I know that for the most part these children could actually understand and abide by the social distancing advice and I know for a fact would actively police each other. Plus they would know the reasons why and that it is hopefully a temporary arrangement.

As a school worker myself, I would certainly feel more empowered and able to ensure children's safety to a much larger degree than I would feel with FS2/Rec, Y1 children. All I can say is, the decision makers in the government clearly haven't taught a room full of four year olds.

Having had plenty of training on children's social/emotional and cognitive development, it is known that the upper level 'rational' thinking skills aren't actually anywhere near as advanced as those of an 11 year old. If a four year old falls over, they will react and seek assistance/comfort and social distancing will go completely out of the window because the fight/flight pain receptor part of their brain will override any logic. Exactly the same when they are scared, worried etc. So when you suddenly find a Reception child stood right next to you on the yard crying and asking for help, you've already fell foul of the 2 metre rule and you've now got to say, "Give me a second whilst I put on the visor, apron and gloves." The only alternative being of course to wear the PPE in full all the time and that would terrify the poor things.

It's a good bet that other children will attempt to go and comfort instinctively without any other thought. It's going to take a lot of repetitive training, reminders and enforcement to ensure they stay distant. My fear here is, how does that set them up for later life? If this does indeed go on for months or even a year or two, then I'm afraid once they are trained that "stay two metres away" is normal. It will become habitual; like stop, look, listen before you cross the road. It will at some point have to be untrained. There's going to be some interesting fallout when these kids hit teenage or adulthood years.

 

[Mat17]

Yes, I think a shorter school day and no use of the playground makes sense. Probably also no PE. That takes out almost all of the (non-toilet) accidents.

Well our school has decided that they can use the playground (quite why or how is beyond me), but they can have no equipment or toys of any sort [cross-contamination], they are not allowed to run - nothing to do with preventing accidents but because we were told the greater levels of breathing required when running will push the social distancing required up significantly from 2m to 50m (or so was quoted - I'm no scientist so I have no clue whether if that is even vaguely accurate or some random number cunjored out of the sky, either way the upshot is the same, they ain't running). PE is out, assemblies are out, lunch in the hall is out, moving out of their seats in the classrooms is also prohibited and everything (tables/their individual equipment etc.) has to be sanitised at the end of school. We can't use books, paper or photocopies [cross-contamination]. Everything that can be moved out of the rooms, except the required tables, is being extracted. So they are barren, clinical and can harbour not even the shadow of a germ. School's are taking this seriously and are working hard to ensure everyone is kept as safe as is humanly possible.

Basically we're working akin to an operating theatre. Not quite sure how we're going to teach anything to be honest as it has been argued that the children in REC/Y1/Y6 that aren't returning in June (approx 50% of the eligible numbers for our school) will be left behind and we can't let that happen. So we're focusing on social/emotional wellbeing rather than academia.

I feel I've gone from an educator to a hospital theatre technician.

 

[BJames]

Well our school has decided that they can use the playground (quite why or how is beyond me), but they can have no equipment or toys of any sort [cross-contamination], they are not allowed to run - nothing to do with preventing accidents but because we were told the greater levels of breathing required when running will push the social distancing required up significantly from 2m to 50m (or so was quoted - I'm no scientist so I have no clue whether if that is even vaguely accurate or some random number cunjored out of the sky, either way the upshot is the same, they ain't running). PE is out, assemblies are out, lunch in the hall is out, moving out of their seats in the classrooms is also prohibited and everything (tables/their individual equipment etc.) has to be sanitised at the end of school. We can't use books, paper or photocopies [cross-contamination]. Everything that can be moved out of the rooms, except the required tables, is being extracted. So they are barren, clinical and can harbour not even the shadow of a germ. School's are taking this seriously and are working hard to ensure everyone is kept as safe as is humanly possible.

Basically we're working akin to an operating theatre. Not quite sure how we're going to teach anything to be honest as it has been argued that the children in REC/Y1/Y6 that aren't returning in June (approx 50% of the eligible numbers for our school) will be left behind and we can't let that happen. So we're focusing on social/emotional wellbeing rather than academia.

I feel I've gone from an educator to a hospital theatre technician.

Goodness. I'm sure not everyone will agree but this does sound over the top. Kids will not feel comforted about going back to school if everything's this clinical. The social distancing - did you mean 5 metres or did you actually mean 50 metres?? Has anyone got a paper or article that says this (not saying you're wrong but I would be very interested to investigate this).

 

[Mat17]

Goodness. I'm sure not everyone will agree but this does sound over the top. Kids will not feel comforted about going back to school if everything's this clinical. The social distancing - did you mean 5 metres or did you actually mean 50 metres?? Has anyone got a paper or article that says this (not saying you're wrong but I would be very interested to investigate this).

I must admit when I heard it, I thought 5m sounded more likely! 50m sounds ludicrous to me but that was the figure quoted in our meeting. I still think it an error.

No I have to agree, it does sound over the top and it won't make the kids feel comforted at all I shouldn't think. I'm dreading it to be honest. But the advice being followed has been thorough, it has consulted risk assessments sent from the DfE, Local councils, Local Education Authority, Academy Group, it had been put past the unions and also following concerns raised by Labour MPs who run the council too. All in all, I suspect (and hope) it's overkill, but school's have to ensure minimal risk and of course cover themselves legally. Now I'm not on the school's management team, but I know lots of info has been coming in from high up and that sample risk assessments have been run past headteachers (and their unions) and all of what we are doing we have been advised to do.

 

[richw]

Yes - I think the resistance is from Unions and not the schools. Most schools I know are fully preparing for June 1st.

My kids (Primary) headteacher is very positive and ready to reopen. He’s shared a series of YouTube videos talking and guiding round new policies and how things will be done. He’s open that social distancing isn’t viable but kids will be in social groups of max 10 with 2 adults and no mixing or contact with any other groups. If any of that group of 10 kids/2 adults get any symptoms they are all sent home and placed on isolation. They aren’t allowed to take school bags and not allowed to wear blazers or ties. Each child will have a space to keep their newly issued stationary and lunchbox. The school field will be marked into boxes for each bubble and where Weather allows all learning will take place outside.

 

[richw]

This is likely to be irrelevant for my son's nursery, who will adopting a "bubbles" approach. I.e. small groups of 6-8 kids kept contained with one or two teachers who have no contact with other teachers or groups. The kids will be encouraged not to closely interract but not "punished" if they do. And teaches will be able to assist if they have any tumbles (but they will be inside only and bot using the outside garden/playground)

The bubble approach is government guidelines to establishments, or at least to primary age
My kids school will be using the field as much as possible Where Space for each bubbles have been marked up. They’ve also got an adjacent conservation area part of the grounds with woodland they will utilise.

 

[Mat17]

My kids (Primary) headteacher is very positive and ready to reopen. He’s shared a series of YouTube videos talking and guiding round new policies and how things will be done. He’s open that social distancing isn’t viable but kids will be in social groups of max 10 with 2 adults and no mixing or contact with any other groups. If any of that group of 10 kids/2 adults get any symptoms they are all sent home and placed on isolation. They aren’t allowed to take school bags and not allowed to wear blazers or ties. Each child will have a space to keep their newly issued stationary and lunchbox. The school field will be marked into boxes for each bubble and where Weather allows all learning will take place outside.

Snap! Exactly the same guidance we are following. Although we are going to attempt social distancing amongst the children, where and when we can.

I suspect most schools in England will be following the same set of guidance with minor variations, due to building design/cohort etc.

 

[Esker-pades]

Not if they have the fear of other children, no help or comfort when they fall over, as in the nightmare scenario described in this video...

Yes: Famed education expert Vernon Coleman.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Goodness. I'm sure not everyone will agree but this does sound over the top. Kids will not feel comforted about going back to school if everything's this clinical. The social distancing - did you mean 5 metres or did you actually mean 50 metres?? Has anyone got a paper or article that says this (not saying you're wrong but I would be very interested to investigate this).

There is an article on Medium suggesting this (it wasn't however 50m) but it was published without peer review and has been widely discredited. However, quite a lot of people seem to believe it.

 

[BJames]

I must admit when I heard it, I thought 5m sounded more likely! 50m sounds ludicrous to me but that was the figure quoted in our meeting. I still think it an error.

No I have to agree, it does sound over the top and it won't make the kids feel comforted at all I shouldn't think. I'm dreading it to be honest. But the advice being followed has been thorough, it has consulted risk assessments sent from the DfE, Local councils, Local Education Authority, Academy Group, it had been put past the unions and also following concerns raised by Labour MPs who run the council too. All in all, I suspect (and hope) it's overkill, but school's have to ensure minimal risk and of course cover themselves legally. Now I'm not on the school's management team, but I know lots of info has been coming in from high up and that sample risk assessments have been run past headteachers (and their unions) and all of what we are doing we have been advised to do.

Thanks - I look forward to hearing from you when schools do return. The announcement in today's press conference that we're sticking with a June 1 return for the years specified seems to have been rushed through slightly from next week's more detailed government plan (let's see anyway).

I'd love to have a chat with the person that thinks 50 metres is necessary when running - I looked for the Medium article but I found an article from the British Heart Foundation (if interested: https://www.bhf.org.uk/informations...headlines/coronavirus/coronavirus-and-running) that talks about the simulation which suggests you need to keep about 10 metres behind runners. I'll await the peer-reviewed study before a proper comment.

 

[Bikeman78]

I think it's important for children to return to school but I can't help but think we've got the strategy a bit wrong.

I'm a school Governor at a Primary School and a huge amount of work is going into making sure that the school is a safe environment for when children return. It won't be business as usual though:

Arrangements will be made to observe social distancing in classrooms but this means the number of children that can be accommodated will be less than half of the usual number
Because of this children will be spread across more class rooms and are unlikely to be taught by their usual teacher
Due to the number of classrooms and teachers available children will attend on 2 days (e.g. Monday and Tuesday, with others attending on Thursday and Friday leaving Wednesday for deep cleaning as the groups of children changeover and for teachers PPA)
Each class will be set up as a bubble with specific teachers and support assistants. People (staff and children) won't be able to mix between bubbles.
Start and finish times will be staggered by bubble. Each bubble will have a different break time. A packed lunch will be provided and eaten in the classroom to avoid children mixing between bubbles.
Social distancing in operation in the classrooms so separate tables, no group carpet time etc.
Children of key workers can continue to attend 5 days a week - this will be a separate buble


I'm not against schools going back but I think the older children should be prioritised.

All this social distancing nonsense puts me off sending our kids back more than the virus. How do you tell a five year old to keep away from everyone else? I can remember being in primary school. We used to chase around the playground playing tag and various other games. I give it a day before it all falls apart.

On a practical note, will parents with two kids at the same school have the same start and finish times? Otherwise they will have to make four trips to the school per day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks - I look forward to hearing from you when schools do return. The announcement in today's press conference that we're sticking with a June 1 return for the years specified seems to have been rushed through slightly from next week's more detailed government plan (let's see anyway).

I'd love to have a chat with the person that thinks 50 metres is necessary when running - I looked for the Medium article but I found an article from the British Heart Foundation (if interested: https://www.bhf.org.uk/informations...headlines/coronavirus/coronavirus-and-running) that talks about the simulation which suggests you need to keep about 10 metres behind runners. I'll await the peer-reviewed study before a proper comment.

I doubt there will be one - it had significant flaws, most notably effectively assuming one virus particle was enough for a viable infection, which it isn't. It was along the lines of "studies" looking at clouds of vape and suggesting that if the cloud reached you, infection would. The thing is, if that were true, R0 would be a lot more than 3 - it would be more like measles which I think has an R0 of 15 - and in that case we could well have been looking at an extinction event.

It does seem to be going rather the other way - namely that outdoors infection is negligible even if distancing is not observed.

 

[xc170]

I'll have no issue sending my son (4) back to school in June. All of the stats have shown kids are the lowest risk group in regards to this virus. I actually had a disagreement with someone at work that was refusing to send her kids back to School until September as she believed it wasn't safe, in my opinion, my son is as a greater risk of being hit by a car on the way to/from school than from the virus.

 

[PG]

On a practical note, will parents with two kids at the same school have the same start and finish times? Otherwise they will have to make four trips to the school per day.

Herein lies something which may well hinder some parents ability to return to work if they have to be doing a double school run.

I also wonder what effect this staggering will have on school transport? Will councils be able to afford to pay their providers to undertake extra journeys?

 

[sjpowermac]

Did anyone see any teachers standing on picket lines today? No, thought not. What complete and utter nonsense all the talk earlier in the thread of ‘militant teachers’.

True enough, 22 councils have stood against reopening and there will doubtless be individual schools that have remained closed for a variety of reasons. The vast majority though are open.

Expect exactly the same thing from secondary schools on 15th June. Lots of practical work going on to make it happen.

 

[yorkie]

This is likely to be irrelevant for my son's nursery, who will adopting a "bubbles" approach. ...

Indeed; I was under the impression that for younger children in this country we would be doing that instead of social distancing (which had a separate thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...dren-be-required-to-socially-distance.204249/ )

Did anyone see any teachers standing on picket lines today? No, thought not. What complete and utter nonsense all the talk earlier in the thread of ‘militant teachers’.

Out of hundreds of teachers I've met, I think there's perhaps only one who I'd think of as potentially being 'militant' from a Union perspective.

Without wishing to upset anyone, perhaps a good way of putting it is that some Unions may like to present a particular narrative which is not necessarily reflected by most of their members, and of course media reporting can play a part too.

 

[sjpowermac]

There are very good reasons for wanting schools open, but it doesn’t seem to be totally risk free:

“Almost an entire class of students at a Trois-Rivières school contracted COVID-19 despite physical distancing and other prevention measures.”

Almost an entire class of students caught coronavirus at a Trois-Rivières school

Outbreak amid preventive measures illustrates the difficulty of controlling the spread of COVID-19 in a classroom of young children.

ottawacitizen.com

 

[yorkie]

Nothing is risk free; in England the average number of under 15s who die from 'flu each year is about 12 (I believe the figure for Covid 19 so far is either 2 or 3?).

In my opinion we should try to act in a manner that rationally and pragmatically considers all risks of any activity, but balances them against the benefits.

 

[richw]

My youngest went back this week. In her advised bubble Of 10, only her and 2 other children have returned. One of those others is my partners daughter (we all live together so she’s interacting with 1 child from a different household, and 1 teacher)

 

[johnnychips]

Yesterday I construsted some 1m cane sticks with a stuffed plastic glove on the end, so that when my small class returns on Monday we can shake hands and give high fives like we used to. I can’t wait to see my students again.

 

[yorkie]

Based on the evidence I've seen, there are more children of keyworkers attending schools now, which is encouraging. But you're still talking about tiny numbers as a percentage of the overall student population.

If social distancing rules are not relaxed by September, we are going to see students in school some of the time but still the majority of the time will be home learning.

Year 6 induction/transition activities still cannot take place (despite staff , parents, students all being willing, and vast empty rooms and empty playgrounds able to accommodate them)

School pupils still set to be working from home in September, say heads

YORK pupils look set to continue working remotely from home in September - for at least part of the week - after secondary headteachers said it’s…

www.yorkpress.co.uk

Steve Lewis, head of Fulford School, said in a letter to parents that “whilst we would all hope that the school fully reopens to all in September, it is more likely that we will be starting September with a form of blended learning”.

He said: “This would mean most learning would continue to be done remotely at home, with different year groups spending limited periods in school.”

He said there were “severe restrictions” on the number of pupils that could be accommodated in school at any one time while maintaining the two-metre social distancing rule, with an average of nine in a standard classroom. However, if the two-metre rule were to be reduced, the number would obviously increase.

York High School head Rod Sims said he wanted as many students as possible back in September but, if a two-metre social distance was to be maintained, he could only expect a mix of online learning and in-school learning.

He warned: “If this continues it will continue to have an adverse impact, particularly on those who do not have the technological resources to access online learning.”

This comment on the above article is sensible:

Honestly, we just HAVE to get schools back to normal from September, for the sake of the children but also parents and the wider economy. Home learning, I'm sorry but it has limited positive impact and I'd argue that as the death toll of COVID lowers, what we should become more worried about is the negative impact on the nation's Mental Health as people are kept away from their friends & work colleagues and locked away in their homes. By September we really must get back to normal.

Schools are still in the dark and unable to plan for September.

I don't think I can ever forgive the 'lockdown enthusiast' brigade for the harm their views are continuing to inflict on young people.

 

[MikeWM]

Schools are still in the dark and unable to plan for September.

I don't think I can ever forgive the 'lockdown enthusiast' brigade for the harm their views are continuing to inflict on young people.

How can we even contemplate not having all children back in school full-time by *September*?!?! This country has gone insane

 

[Huntergreed]

How can we even contemplate not having all children back in school full-time by *September*?!?! This country has gone insane

Up in Scotland it’s almost been confirmed that we won’t have all kids full time by September. It’s going to be part time and very different, but with a mix on campus and online learning, to allow for 2m distancing to take place (government must be insisting on it as measurements are being made now as teachers prepare to reopen in August. They’re scrapping all arts and practical subjects in some regions and seriously limiting all practical activities in many (back to the 1800’s anyone?) and even more worryingly it sounds like this may remain until a vaccine unless someone or something changes Sturgeon’s mind.

I can’t help but feel at this point that the “government” I elected don’t really care about my generation. I just can’t get over how “relaxed” they are about the return to school. Children have just lost out on around 3-4% of their entire education, and yet they don’t care over an approximate at best “R” number. The mental health of many students I know has deteriorated very significantly indeed, with a number of school pupils I know thinking that they’ve lost out on the opportunity to pursue their dreams and find a career doing what makes them happy because the government are being “careful”, and quite frankly I think it’s a national embarrassment that more isn’t being done. We must get all students, from nursery up to university back ASAP or else in the coming years and decades we’ll be faced with social and economic issues with a magnitude much much greater than even a worst case scenario Covid outbreaks

 

[thejuggler]

If the lockdown enthusiast brigade had been listened to in Feb/March we may well be back to near normality.

Every decision made on schools has been made with no deliverable plan in place.

 

[Bikeman78]

Based on the evidence I've seen, there are more children of keyworkers attending schools now, which is encouraging. But you're still talking about tiny numbers as a percentage of the overall student population.

If social distancing rules are not relaxed by September, we are going to see students in school some of the time but still the majority of the time will be home learning.

Year 6 induction/transition activities still cannot take place (despite staff , parents, students all being willing, and vast empty rooms and empty playgrounds able to accommodate them)

School pupils still set to be working from home in September, say heads

YORK pupils look set to continue working remotely from home in September - for at least part of the week - after secondary headteachers said it’s…

www.yorkpress.co.uk

This comment on the above article is sensible:

Schools are still in the dark and unable to plan for September.

I don't think I can ever forgive the 'lockdown enthusiast' brigade for the harm their views are continuing to inflict on young people.

The only sensible option is to open schools as normal. Having kids go in two or three days a week, and trying to keep them apart is total nonsense. Sport wise it looks like the only sport they could possibly play is cricket. What are other European countries doing?

 

[Scrotnig]

Up in Scotland it’s almost been confirmed that we won’t have all kids full time by September. It’s going to be part time and very different, but with a mix on campus and online learning, to allow for 2m distancing to take place (government must be insisting on it as measurements are being made now as teachers prepare to reopen in August. They’re scrapping all arts and practical subjects in some regions and seriously limiting all practical activities in many (back to the 1800’s anyone?) and even more worryingly it sounds like this may remain until a vaccine unless someone or something changes Sturgeon’s mind.

I can’t help but feel at this point that the “government” I elected don’t really care about my generation. I just can’t get over how “relaxed” they are about the return to school. Children have just lost out on around 3-4% of their entire education, and yet they don’t care over an approximate at best “R” number. The mental health of many students I know has deteriorated very significantly indeed, with a number of school pupils I know thinking that they’ve lost out on the opportunity to pursue their dreams and find a career doing what makes them happy because the government are being “careful”, and quite frankly I think it’s a national embarrassment that more isn’t being done. We must get all students, from nursery up to university back ASAP or else in the coming years and decades we’ll be faced with social and economic issues with a magnitude much much greater than even a worst case scenario Covid outbreaks

Nobody cares about any of this.
It’s the same with healthcare. Cancer? Go home and die. Stroke? Heart attack? Not interested. Mental health? No chance. My doctors surgery is still completely closed with phone calls redirecting to NHS 111. Need a life saving repeat prescription? Not doing them, please go home and die, we don’t care.

The country is in a terrible mess but absolutely nothing matters unless it’s the virus.

 

[6862]

The country is in a terrible mess but absolutely nothing matters unless it’s the virus.

Increasingly this seems to be true. Somewhere along the way we got things very much out of perspective. On the topic of education, I think we will be seeing the effects of this school shutdown on children for years to come, both in their educational achievements and in their general wellbeing.

 

[Steveoh]

The only sensible option is to open schools as normal. Having kids go in two or three days a week, and trying to keep them apart is total nonsense. Sport wise it looks like the only sport they could possibly play is cricket. What are other European countries doing?

My kids are playing with a football and a frisbee at school. They are loving absolutely loving being back, it has made such a difference to them. 90%+ of year 6 are back and doing transition activity for secondary school. Where there's a will there's a way. All the kids are cleaning their hands regularly they're not tackling each other playing football, why can't they kick a ball about?

I wonder what lessons the lockdown is teaching our kids? Will they grow up being risk adverse or risk takers. Will they take risks and found small businesses?

I'm just glad we've a pro-active head and supportive governers.

Oh and if anything has exposed the nonesense that is Ofsted this is it. To think that our school requires improvement, it's laughable.