Cloth masks, scarves and bandanas to be 'encouraged' with no compulsion

[sheff1]

1 in 12 is a few,

Your definition of "very few" is quite obviously very different to mine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your definition of "very few" is quite obviously very different to mine.

If 1 in 12 people could not wear a mask, that means 11 in 12 can. That's a big potential reduction in spread. Think of it as having a similar effect to herd immunity.

 

[sheff1]

I in 12 is the number of people with asthma. They are not the only people who can't wear a mask.

The point is that the number of people who cannot wear a mask is not, in my view, "very few". The poster to whom I replied suggested that people without a mak should be denied access and implied that it wouldn't matter because there are only a few of them. Denying access (not just to public transport) to upwards of 5 million people, particularly on unproven grounds, is not something I can agree with.

 

[westv]

I can't imagine wearing a mask on a boiling hot tube train would be that great.

 

[Bantamzen]

Fair enough. I get the impression though that some people would like to see them made compulsory on all trains and all walks of life.

That's also the impression I'm getting, some people have taken to the idea that mask = safe. Oh if only life were that simple!

Because of my illness, I have covered my mouth in public with a scarf for many years. I never knew some people in this country thought face scarves dystopian. Strange!

People in this country are used to being able to see a person's face when communicating, it helps people understand the person they are talking to, can help people know when someone is being funny, sarcastic, sad, or even aggressive. Its a key form of social interaction, so blocking off half of one's face can make people feel uncomfortable and yes even feel like the situation is dystopian. So no, its really not strange at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I in 12 is the number of people with asthma. They are not the only people who can't wear a mask.

Not all asthmatics wouldn't be able to wear a mask. For instance my asthma, even though I have inhalers etc, only affects me during vigorous physical activity.

 

[yorksrob]

It's all about the numbers though. If you have a carriage of twenty people, nineteen wearing masks with one not because they can't, that's still potentially a massive reduction in droplets floating around.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's all about the numbers though. If you have a carriage of twenty people, nineteen wearing masks with one not because they can't, that's still potentially a massive reduction in droplets floating around.

Exactly. It's like vaccination, herd immunity etc - it's all relative. The key isn't to stop spread, it's just to get R well below 1, and then over a period of time the thing just dies out.

 

[Mag_seven]

I'm still to be convinced that wearing one does not make you more exposed due the fact that moisture will build up around your mouth and nose enabling a smoother transition of the virus into your body.

 

[yorksrob]

Would moisture on the face speed up transmission ? - given that it's likely to be your own moisture. Possibly some additional danger of touching your face, but then again, that's more linked to what you may have touched previously.

 

[Mag_seven]

Would moisture on the face speed up transmission ?

I don't know - thats why I want a scientist to answer the question before I wear one!

 

[yorksrob]

I don't know - thats why I want a scientist to answer the question before I wear one!

Well, it would help to have some research on these things.

 

[Smidster]

Right now it doesn't seem that many people have taken to wearing masks - certainly on the buses I see coming past the house it is a minority (not that there are many passengers to start with)

It does strike as an ideal case of saying that it might need to be mandatory but in return we can relax some of the more draconian social distancing measures to get more people moving. So if everyone is wearing something then it is fine to have more normal loading.

Right now what is the incentive for someone to wear a mask? They get the inconvenience and discomfort while also being the only person in the carriage.

Have to say I am personally still skeptical about the benefits - particularly when we are asking people to cut up old t-shirts.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I in 12 is the number of people with asthma. They are not the only people who can't wear a mask.

What other group do you know of who cannot wear a mask, and exists in sufficient numbers to make a significant difference to the proportion of people who could reasonably be required to wear a mask on public transport? (Something like 90% even if you exclude most asthma sufferers)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does strike as an ideal case of saying that it might need to be mandatory but in return we can relax some of the more draconian social distancing measures to get more people moving. So if everyone is wearing something then it is fine to have more normal loading.

A good start might be "you can reduce it to a metre, but only if BOTH of you are wearing a face covering".

 

[Skymonster]

All I see with respect to demands for people to wear masks at the moment are misguided reactions to fear and virus-paranoia (and that goes way beyond masks by the way):

What are the latest rules for face coverings and masks?

Rules around face coverings are easing across the UK but they are still required in some settings.

www.bbc.co.uk

The World Health Organisation currently says only two groups of people should wear protective masks, those who are:

• sick and showing symptoms
• caring for people suspected to have coronavirus

Masks are not generally recommended for the public because:

• they can be contaminated by other people's coughs and sneezes, or when putting them on or removing them
• frequent hand-washing and social distancing are more effective
• they might offer a false sense of security

A month ago all the armchair experts were saying "do what you're told." Now all those armchair experts are effectively saying "I know better."

We need to get back to a normal way of life because the alternatives will be far worse in the long term. If you want to wear a mask while doing so - fine, do it, no one should stop you, but don't try to impose your will on others. And if you don't want to wear a mask - fine also, keep calm and carry on.

 

[Llanigraham]

TOCs should have no business asking staff to monitor the number of people wearing face coverings.

As far as I can see all they are asking them to do is to COUNT them. Nothing more than that.

The government have advised asthmatic people not to wear face masks. Asthma UK states over 5 million people in the UK (1 in 12) are receiving treatment for asthma. Hardly "very few".

As a seasonal asthmatic, I think that 1 in 12 is statistically few.
One thing I have found doing my C19 deliveries, is that a "duck bill" mask is far less constricting than the ones close to the mouth.

Many people, myself included, find it much harder to understand what is being said in places with background noise (e.g. trains) if they can't see the speaker's lips. If someone with a face covering said something to me I would have to move my head closer to them to make out what they were saying - which rather goes against the idea of social distancing.

One thing I will agree with you. I'm partially deaf and didn't realise just how much I used lip reading until now.

 

[Llanigraham]

I'm still to be convinced that wearing one does not make you more exposed due the fact that moisture will build up around your mouth and nose enabling a smoother transition of the virus into your body.

That suggests more that you are using the wrong masks and haven't been properly trained in their use.

 

[High Dyke]

On the subject of masks. The wife has been issued with some by her employer for use when working trains. She had one on for about a minute the other day, but had to remove it as it was causing her skin to irritate. There's been no advice on the material used in the mask her employer has provided, which seems to be a standard type, so therefore anyone who suffers from skin allergies etc. are at a disadvantage. To her credit she has her own scarf available to wear when needed.

One of her colleagues has also experienced an increase in nose bleeds since using a mask at work, when needed.

 

[greyman42]

We need to get back to a normal way of life because the alternatives will be far worse in the long term. If you want to wear a mask while doing so - fine, do it, no one should stop you, but don't try to impose your will on others. And if you don't want to wear a mask - fine also, keep calm and carry on.
[/QUOTE]
This sums it up perfectly for me and I think we should just leave it at that.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

We need to get back to a normal way of life because the alternatives will be far worse in the long term.

Sure. And the quicker we can get the threat from the virus down to negligible levels, then the quicker we can get back to a normal way of life. It does seem from the evidence we have that wearing masks in situations where social distancing is impossible (for example, public transport) would help with that.

If you want to wear a mask while doing so - fine, do it, no one should stop you, but don't try to impose your will on others. And if you don't want to wear a mask - fine also, keep calm and carry on.

So on your argument, it's not OK to impose a requirement to wear a mask on others. But it's OK for people who don't want to wear a mask to impose Covid-19 on others by passing it on if they are infected, right?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That's also the impression I'm getting, some people have taken to the idea that mask = safe. Oh if only life were that simple!

I would say that safeR is more accurate. Obviously, almost nothing is going to make you completely safe - virtually any social contact carries a small risk. But it does seem that masks when in confined spaces would reduce that risk - and more importantly, by reducing the transmission rate, help to get the virus under control.

 

[Skymonster]

Sure. And the quicker we can get the threat from the virus down to negligible levels, then the quicker we can get back to a normal way of life. It does seem from the evidence we have that wearing masks in situations where social distancing is impossible (for example, public transport) would help with that.

I quoted WHO advice - I am mystified as to why regular members of the public feel they know better.

So on your argument, it's not OK to impose a requirement to wear a mask on others. But it's OK for people who don't want to wear a mask to impose Covid-19 on others by passing it on if they are infected, right?

Nope, I didn't say that either. I effectively said that anyone who wants to adopt a more stringent standard has to make their own arrangements to do so, and at the moment masks are not mandatory - thank goodness! People can't go around making up rules to force on everyone, just to suit their individual beliefs.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Nope, I didn't say that either. I effectively said that anyone who wants to adopt a more stringent standard has to make their own arrangements to do so, and at the moment masks are not mandatory - thank goodness! People can't go around making up rules to force on everyone, just to suit their individual beliefs.

No, obviously you didn't say that directly, but it is the logical conclusion of your argument, combined with all the evidence that if you are infected, then wearing a mask helps to prevent you transmitting the infection to others.

 

[greyman42]

I quoted WHO advice - I am mystified as to why regular members of the public feel they know better.



Nope, I didn't say that either. I effectively said that anyone who wants to adopt a more stringent standard has to make their own arrangements to do so, and at the moment masks are not mandatory - thank goodness! People can't go around making up rules to force on everyone, just to suit their individual beliefs.

Spot on.

 

[Bantamzen]

I would say that safeR is more accurate. Obviously, almost nothing is going to make you completely safe - virtually any social contact carries a small risk. But it does seem that masks when in confined spaces would reduce that risk - and more importantly, by reducing the transmission rate, help to get the virus under control.

Actually we don't know that is true yet, particularly because in order to be effective a mask worn to prevent spread needs to stop all means of moisture escape. People not trained in the use of medical or home made masks may well be getting complacent when actually their face covering is less than effective, a concern shared by the WHO.

In my opinion it is better to be aware of your need to cover you face effectively when you cough or sneeze, as well as washing your hands regularly than sitting behind a poorly fitting mask thinking you are doing your bit.

 

[Mag_seven]

That suggests more that you are using the wrong masks and haven't been properly trained in their use.

I haven't been wearing any masks - the point I made was that I want evidence that wearing one (properly of course) does not expose you to additional risk.

 

[Djgr]

The evidence about the effectiveness of cloth face masks is weak. It's more to provide a placebo effect of reassurance, in the same way as actors playing dentists in adverts wear white shirts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The evidence about the effectiveness of cloth face masks is weak. It's more to provide a placebo effect of reassurance, in the same way as actors playing dentists in adverts wear white shirts.

Not so. The evidence for their effectiveness when used by people who are infected is reasonably good (though not 100%), because it's basically like a permanently-in-position handkerchief.

 

[ashkeba]

I quoted WHO advice - I am mystified as to why regular members of the public feel they know better.

Your quote was not of the WHO website.

Also, I think WHO call the sort of mask being discussed here face coverings to make it clear everyone is not meant to buy up medical grade masks and their advice should be read in that light.

Why not quote the public health England advice? Or the equivalent ministries in France or Belgium or Spain or many others. I do not understand why random members of the public think they know better