Ideas and predictions for trains serving Old Oak Common station

[NotATrainspott]

There's no point not stopping an HS2 train at OOC when it's expected that 1/3 of London HS2 passengers will get on or off there. The firm expectation is that people will take the Elizabeth line to OOC and change there rather than the Tube to Euston. While superficially similar OOC is a very different beast to Stratford International. It'll be more like what Haymarket is to Waverley in Edinburgh - they're treated as equal stations serving different areas of the city centre. The only train that doesn't call at Haymarket is the Sleeper, and that's probably just because anyone intending to travel by sleeper won't mind the extra few minutes journey to Waverley, where all Edinburgh passengers can be managed in one go without blocking the platform/station for other trains.

I expect that most GWML services will also call at OOC, since it'll become a natural interchange point for passengers going from the north of Great Britain to the south-west. Sure, there might be a direct train via Birmingham, but it'll probably be faster to go on HS2 and then onto a GWR express service with a bit of a dogleg than it is to trundle along in a CrossCountry train averaging 60mph.

 

[matt_world2004]

Is oyster /Travelcards going to be accepted between Euston and Old Oak Common.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Is oyster /Travelcards going to be accepted between Euston and Old Oak Common.

I suspect it will be like St Pancras to Stratford International. Oyster and contactless PAYG possible, but no capping and Travelcards not accepted.

 

[higthomas]

I suspect it will be like St Pancras to Stratford International. Oyster and contactless PAYG possible, but no capping and Travelcards not accepted.

Well I've heard they want to make HS2 booked seat only. I REALLY hope that doesn't happen, but if that is the case it won't. If not, I'd have expected not anyway, probably set down/pick up only. No point crowding out long distance passengers with commuters.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Well I've heard they want to make HS2 booked seat only. I REALLY hope that doesn't happen, but if that is the case it won't. If not, I'd have expected not anyway, probably set down/pick up only. No point crowding out long distance passengers with commuters.

It may be booked seat only from Old Oak Common northwards.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Well I've heard they want to make HS2 booked seat only. I REALLY hope that doesn't happen, but if that is the case it won't. If not, I'd have expected not anyway, probably set down/pick up only. No point crowding out long distance passengers with commuters.

Short-notice bookings will be commonplace by then. If you have an anytime ticket, for instance, you will be assigned a seat when you turn up and go through the ticket gates. All the seats will have occupancy sensors so it'll be possible to know where you can sit before the train has turned up.

 

[mr_jrt]

Potentially Chiltern too! But not sure if there is space either for the station itself or to keep the connection out of OOC towards this route.

The original plans had a up line flyover enabling the central Crossrail lines to feed into 3 turnback sidings along the NNML alignment towards Park Royal, two of these would become running lines for any extension to Tring or along the NNML.

The flyover has now apparently been descoped, so the three turnbacks will curve between the outer running lines instead. Any running line(s) for Chiltern from the NNML will scoot around the outside of the the Crossrail tracks.

A myopic decision if you ask me - building a flyover later will be all but impossible without rerouting all Crossrail services through the other 2/3 platforms for the duration of any construction, necessitating all manner of pointwork and signalling changes to take one or two platforms out of use to connect up the turnback sidings as new running lines. I just can't see that being viable for the months it would take to build a flyover after Crossrail is up and running.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I heard any new platforms for the Chiltern Lines will be between the HS2 platforms and the GWML platforms

 

[coppercapped]

There's no point not stopping an HS2 train at OOC when it's expected that 1/3 of London HS2 passengers will get on or off there. The firm expectation is that people will take the Elizabeth line to OOC and change there rather than the Tube to Euston. While superficially similar OOC is a very different beast to Stratford International. It'll be more like what Haymarket is to Waverley in Edinburgh - they're treated as equal stations serving different areas of the city centre. The only train that doesn't call at Haymarket is the Sleeper, and that's probably just because anyone intending to travel by sleeper won't mind the extra few minutes journey to Waverley, where all Edinburgh passengers can be managed in one go without blocking the platform/station for other trains.

I expect that most GWML services will also call at OOC, since it'll become a natural interchange point for passengers going from the north of Great Britain to the south-west. Sure, there might be a direct train via Birmingham, but it'll probably be faster to go on HS2 and then onto a GWR express service with a bit of a dogleg than it is to trundle along in a CrossCountry train averaging 60mph.

Bit late coming back to this point...

I am not particularly concerned as to whether all the HS2 trains call at OOC or not. I can see that it will be useful for connecting people living or working in the London suburbs out to about Slough or Maidenhead with a fast service to Birmingham without having to get to Euston and then work their way back out again. It is also useful for those on the Crossrail corridor to the East.

However I am concerned that stopping all the GWML fast services at OOC does not serve well those passengers who journeys require them to use the Bakerloo, Circle, District and Hammersmith and City lines for their onward journey from Paddington. These lines cover a larger area of London than does Crossrail. A stop at OOC will add five or six minutes to their journey, making the Reading to Paddington journey time just about equivalent to that possible with a Class 52 on 10 coaches.

Back to the 1960s...it'll be as if the HST never existed.

Crossrail from OOC will only serve that subset of passengers coming from the West who require destinations along the Central Line corridor and Canary Wharf. In any event the change at Paddington to Crossrail will be very easy, the Crossrail station is under Eastbourne Terrace right beside the station - walk to the barrier line, turn right and down the escalators. It'll be closer than Praed Street for the District and Circle or the tunnel to the Bakerloo so there is no real argument for making the transfer earlier.

I also don't understand the argument about OOC being the natural interchange for passengers from the North to the Southwest. From Birmingham there is already a direct route to Bristol, gateway to the southwest - a route via OOC is roundly two and a half times longer and therefore will be more expensive. Any argument about services from Leeds and other places on the East Coast route is so far in the future it's on the far side of speculation.

 

[edwin_m]

Bit late coming back to this point...

I am not particularly concerned as to whether all the HS2 trains call at OOC or not. I can see that it will be useful for connecting people living or working in the London suburbs out to about Slough or Maidenhead with a fast service to Birmingham without having to get to Euston and then work their way back out again. It is also useful for those on the Crossrail corridor to the East.

However I am concerned that stopping all the GWML fast services at OOC does not serve well those passengers who journeys require them to use the Bakerloo, Circle, District and Hammersmith and City lines for their onward journey from Paddington. These lines cover a larger area of London than does Crossrail. A stop at OOC will add five or six minutes to their journey, making the Reading to Paddington journey time just about equivalent to that possible with a Class 52 on 10 coaches.

Back to the 1960s...it'll be as if the HST never existed.

Crossrail from OOC will only serve that subset of passengers coming from the West who require destinations along the Central Line corridor and Canary Wharf. In any event the change at Paddington to Crossrail will be very easy, the Crossrail station is under Eastbourne Terrace right beside the station - walk to the barrier line, turn right and down the escalators. It'll be closer than Praed Street for the District and Circle or the tunnel to the Bakerloo so there is no real argument for making the transfer earlier.

I also don't understand the argument about OOC being the natural interchange for passengers from the North to the Southwest. From Birmingham there is already a direct route to Bristol, gateway to the southwest - a route via OOC is roundly two and a half times longer and therefore will be more expensive. Any argument e about services from Leeds and other places on the East Coast route is so far in the future it's on the far side of speculation.

The HS2 trains are all expected to call for capacity reasons. This part of HS2 is close to maximum capacity and any train calling needs an empty slot a few minutes later for when it re-starts, which would have to be vacated by another train slowing down to make the next OOC call. The Japanese do something similar but it all gets a bit hairy if trains are running out of course.

I don't think any final decision has been made, but I believe some at least of the fast GWML services will not stop at OOC for the sort of reason you suggest. OOC to Birmingham is only 31min and Reading to Birmingham by XC is 90min so the journey north is quicker via OOC east of about Didcot. Thus it makes sense to stop the services that are now EMUs to Didcot and Newbury, and probably also those that makes intermediate calls between Newbury and Taunton, since apart from Westbury those stations don't have an easy way north. But probably not anything going further.

 

[Ianno87]

The HS2 trains are all expected to call for capacity reasons. This part of HS2 is close to maximum capacity and any train calling needs an empty slot a few minutes later for when it re-starts, which would have to be vacated by another train slowing down to make the next OOC call. The Japanese do something similar but it all gets a bit hairy if trains are running out of course.

I don't think any final decision has been made, but I believe some at least of the fast GWML services will not stop at OOC for the sort of reason you suggest. OOC to Birmingham is only 31min and Reading to Birmingham by XC is 90min so the journey north is quicker via OOC east of about Didcot. Thus it makes sense to stop the services that are now EMUs to Didcot and Newbury, and probably also those that makes intermediate calls between Newbury and Taunton, since apart from Westbury those stations don't have an easy way north. But probably not anything going further.

Beyond Taunton will be interesting. Plymouth to Newcastle today takes at best 6:45 today on a direct XC.

Via Old Oak Common will be around the 5:45 mark.

An hour faster journey with opportunity for coffee and a leg stretch half way.

Applies from anywhere Taunton southwards to Leeds northwards.

I also don't understand the argument about OOC being the natural interchange for passengers from the North to the Southwest. From Birmingham there is already a direct route to Bristol, gateway to the southwest - a route via OOC is roundly two and a half times longer and therefore will be more expensive. .

Longer doesn't necessarily mean more expensive. Advance fares via London regularly undercut XC fares via shorter routes today.

 

[HowardGWR]

Beyond Taunton will be interesting. Plymouth to Newcastle today takes at best 6:45 today on a direct XC.

Via Old Oak Common will be around the 5:45 mark.

An hour faster journey with opportunity for coffee and a leg stretch half way.

Applies from anywhere Taunton southwards to Leeds northwards.



Longer doesn't necessarily mean more expensive. Advance fares via London regularly undercut XC fares via shorter routes today.

Very good points but these simply underline the need for HSL between Bristol and Brum direct via Curzon St. Oh, dear but they've designed that as a terminus.

 

[coppercapped]

The HS2 trains are all expected to call for capacity reasons. This part of HS2 is close to maximum capacity and any train calling needs an empty slot a few minutes later for when it re-starts, which would have to be vacated by another train slowing down to make the next OOC call. The Japanese do something similar but it all gets a bit hairy if trains are running out of course.

I don't think any final decision has been made, but I believe some at least of the fast GWML services will not stop at OOC for the sort of reason you suggest. OOC to Birmingham is only 31min and Reading to Birmingham by XC is 90min so the journey north is quicker via OOC east of about Didcot. Thus it makes sense to stop the services that are now EMUs to Didcot and Newbury, and probably also those that makes intermediate calls between Newbury and Taunton, since apart from Westbury those stations don't have an easy way north. But probably not anything going further.

This assumes that in the ten or so years before HS2 is finally ready for business there will be no speed or timetable improvements on the line between Reading and Birmingham. I find that hard to accept as the combination of 'no change' to the current offering and the addition of HS2 would mean that XC's financial position would worsen and I can't see the DfT accepting that with equanimity. A mixture of line speed improvements and the removal of some stops (possibly overlaying a faster service on the existing pattern) - and possible avoidance of the dog's-leg via Coventry and using Snow Hill instead of New Street with its slow approaches - could bring the time down to just over an hour. Under these conditions a change of train becomes less appealing.

I am not suggesting that the suburban services to Paddington do not stop at OOC in the future. However it will be an utter nonsense to stop those trains coming from areas which already have good connections to Birmingham - in other words those originating in South Wales; Cheltenham; Gloucester; Hereford and Worcester. Nevertheless a faster service on the (Reading) - Oxford - Leamington - Birmingham route would also mean that HS2 is only quicker for those living and working east of about Maidenhead or Slough - if indeed there are a large number of people in that area who would want or need to make such a journey. London, not Birmingham, is the significant commercial, business, artistic and entertainment centre for the Thames Valley.

 

[Ianno87]

This assumes that in the ten or so years before HS2 is finally ready for business there will be no speed or timetable improvements on the line between Reading and Birmingham. I find that hard to accept as the combination of 'no change' to the current offering and the addition of HS2 would mean that XC's financial position would worsen and I can't see the DfT accepting that with equanimity. A mixture of line speed improvements and the removal of some stops (possibly overlaying a faster service on the existing pattern) - and possible avoidance of the dog's-leg via Coventry and using Snow Hill instead of New Street with its slow approaches - could bring the time down to just over an hour. Under these conditions a change of train becomes less appealing.

The strategy, if anything, is likely to be sending both hourly XCs via Coventry once HS2 releases capacity to make it possible.

Besides I don't see why DfT would be bothered about one TOC abstracting from another TOC - it's just different lines one their own balance sheet!

 

[coppercapped]

Beyond Taunton will be interesting. Plymouth to Newcastle today takes at best 6:45 today on a direct XC.

Via Old Oak Common will be around the 5:45 mark.

An hour faster journey with opportunity for coffee and a leg stretch half way.

Applies from anywhere Taunton southwards to Leeds northwards.



Longer doesn't necessarily mean more expensive. Advance fares via London regularly undercut XC fares via shorter routes today.

HS2 to Newcastle is so far in the future that it's not worth considering the effect on any theoretical Plymouth passenger. Your statement also assumes no improvement to travel times from the West Country to Birmingham and points north over the next couple of decades.

I take your point about fares and distance, but the difference in length between the direct route from Bristol (the case I mentioned of Bristol being the gateway to the west for journeys from Birmingham and points north) to Birmingham and a route via OOC is much larger than the journeys you are implying. It's something like two and a half times further.

 

[coppercapped]

The strategy, if anything, is likely to be sending both hourly XCs via Coventry once HS2 releases capacity to make it possible.

Do you have any evidence to support this suggestion?

Besides I don't see why DfT would be bothered about one TOC abstracting from another TOC - it's just different lines one their own balance sheet!

XC has been short of capacity in some areas for many years and one of the reasons is that the DfT has for a long time been trying to reduce the annual subsidy. In this XC is not alone - in 2007 the then Government decided to rebalance the railways' income between fare payers and taxpayers and /all/ TOCs have been under increasing pressure to reduce the subsidy required. The DfT is trying to reduce the total 'subsidy' line in its spreadsheet so it is trying to reduce this for /all/ operators. It is not a zero-sum game.

If HS2 takes some of XC's traffic do you think that the number of seats XC offers will be increased, left the same or reduced?

 

[Bald Rick]

Personally I think it’s unlikley that any GW long distance services call at OOC, as the total journey time loss for ‘existing’ passengers will be far greater than the gain for those who do find it quicker / easier to change at OOC. Given future plans for the GWML, it will be necessary to stop everything on the main lines there, or nothing.

Indeed if there was a book on such things, I’d have a tenner on the Main (fast) line platforms not being built at all. Seems to be a lot of cash to spend to make things worse.

 

[coppercapped]

Personally I think it’s unlikley that any GW long distance services call at OOC, as the total journey time loss for ‘existing’ passengers will be far greater than the gain for those who do find it quicker / easier to change at OOC. Given future plans for the GWML, it will be necessary to stop everything on the main lines there, or nothing.

Indeed if there was a book on such things, I’d have a tenner on the Main (fast) line platforms not being built at all. Seems to be a lot of cash to spend to make things worse.

There speaks the voice of reason - and experience.

(I'm glad I'm not a lone voice crying in the wilderness... )

 

[popeter45]

Personally I think it’s unlikley that any GW long distance services call at OOC, as the total journey time loss for ‘existing’ passengers will be far greater than the gain for those who do find it quicker / easier to change at OOC. Given future plans for the GWML, it will be necessary to stop everything on the main lines there, or nothing.

Indeed if there was a book on such things, I’d have a tenner on the Main (fast) line platforms not being built at all. Seems to be a lot of cash to spend to make things worse.

could see same as Didcot with intercity services with some but not all stopping?

 

[Ianno87]

Do you have any evidence to support this suggestion?

Page 56 of the West Midlands and Chiltern Route Study.

XC has been short of capacity in some areas for many years and one of the reasons is that the DfT has for a long time been trying to reduce the annual subsidy. In this XC is not alone - in 2007 the then Government decided to rebalance the railways' income between fare payers and taxpayers and /all/ TOCs have been under increasing pressure to reduce the subsidy required. The DfT is trying to reduce the total 'subsidy' line in its spreadsheet so it is trying to reduce this for /all/ operators. It is not a zero-sum game.

If HS2 takes some of XC's traffic do you think that the number of seats XC offers will be increased, left the same or reduced?

Increased, but will not need to be as much of sn increase if other routes abstract some demand growth.

 

[Ianno87]

HS2 to Newcastle is so far in the future that it's not worth considering the effect on any theoretical Plymouth passenger. Your statement also assumes no improvement to travel times from the West Country to Birmingham and points north over the next couple of decades.

Plymouth - Manchester would be about half an hour faster via Old Oak.

 

[Bald Rick]

could see same as Didcot with intercity services with some but not all stopping?

It works at Didcot because there’s roughly half the number of trains on the main lines.

From the ‘current’ (as yet not implemented) timetable, there’s 16 trains an hour off peak on the mains at OOC, with a maximum gap of 5 minutes between them. If you stop any train at OOC, the one behind will be delayed.

By Didcot, 4 have turned off for Heathrow, 3 for the West of England Line, and 2 for the Oxford Line.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you have any evidence to support this suggestion?

Page 56 of the West Midlands and Chiltern Route Study.

It’s also what is known as the ‘Birmingham Airport connectivity’ project, part of the Midlands Hub proposals, and odds on to happen.

 

[NotATrainspott]

There will be 8 platforms on the GWML at OOC. Each track direction on both the main and relief lines will have an island platform. That should allow maximum flexibility for services to call there.

The value of an OOC stop for longer-distance services will depend on the connectivity at OOC. The HS2 plans create the most basic interchange between Elizabeth line, GWML and HS2 services. In future we can expect major developments around the site which will naturally attract passengers not planning to interchange. What better place to put an office development than in the place with the fastest rail connections to Heathrow, the Elizabeth line, the rest of the Thames Valley and the entire north of Great Britain? It might take a few decades but I think the demand will be there, hence the point of building the GWML station so that all services can stop.

 

[Bald Rick]

There will be 8 platforms on the GWML at OOC. Each track direction on both the main and relief lines will have an island platform.

I wouldn’t put your mortgage on that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There speaks the voice of reason - and experience.

(I'm glad I'm not a lone voice crying in the wilderness... )

Yet everything still must stop at your precious Reading for the commuters to crowd it out? OOC is arguably much more useful and important, and I hope everything does stop there.

The building looks impressive, by the way - very reminiscent of the Chinese HS terminals, and, er, Reading. Shame the platforms aren't under an overall roof, though.

 

[edwin_m]

HS2 to Newcastle is so far in the future that it's not worth considering the effect on any theoretical Plymouth passenger. Your statement also assumes no improvement to travel times from the West Country to Birmingham and points north over the next couple of decades.

There are no plans for HS2 itself to reach Newcastle but the arrival of the first HS2 train there is probably less than two decades away. Planning needs to look at least that far ahead.

Another option for that sort of journey is to take the existing route to Birmingham and change onto HS2 there. Birmingham to York or beyond has some of the greatest time savings via HS2 because the existing journey is relatively slow, so changing will give a quicker journey even if it takes a while to get between stations (possibly by tram).

Indeed if there was a book on such things, I’d have a tenner on the Main (fast) line platforms not being built at all. Seems to be a lot of cash to spend to make things worse.

Won't whatever succeeds Heathrow Express have to stop on the Mains? Crossrail also uses the Mains when the Reliefs are closed for engineering. I think Newbury and Didcot trains are on the Mains as well.

 

[Bald Rick]

Won't whatever succeeds Heathrow Express have to stop on the Mains? Crossrail also uses the Mains when the Reliefs are closed for engineering. I think Newbury and Didcot trains are on the Mains as well.

Re the Heathrow Express, they will be on the mains, and if trains are to stop their would have to as well. That’s part of the issue.

Fair point about engineering work on the Relief lines.

 

[quantinghome]

Got to ask what the rationale is for Heathrow Express after Crossrail fully opens. Who's going to use it?

As for GWR, I think anything going through Reading non-stop shouldn't stop at OOC either. But everything that does stop at Reading should stop at OOC. Journeys from the Thames Valley to the North have pretty poor options at present, by rail or by road. OOC will transform this.

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

How hard/expensive would it be to four track the mains from OOC to Paddington? I believe from here the railway is wide enough anyway, so would need no new land, but I might be wrong. This would allow some, but not all, fast trains to stop there.