Should UK manufacturers develop more products for Continental Europe?

[CBlue]

They can afford to go for the heavyweight, slightly more fuel hungry Citaro. Which, btw, gets around 9MPG, not the 6 mentioned earlier.

Feel free to state your source for this?
My post was based on this article.

Promise kept: demonstrably lower fuel consumption with Euro VI-certified Mercedes-Benz Citaro and Setra ComfortClass | marsMediaSite

Promise kept: demonstrably lower fuel consumption with Euro VI-certified Mercedes-Benz Citaro and Setra ComfortClass

media.daimler.com

38.7l per 100km works out as 6mpg, so I suggest that you are mistaken?




Anyway, as far as UK psv manufacturers developing vehicles for continental Europe goes, ADL won't push into that market unless an operator out there either orders vehicles or requests development of something that they're prepared to buy in sufficient quantity.

 

[MotCO]

Regarding reliability of vehicles, some operators manage some buses better than others. Remember London did not like the DMS Fleetline, but other operators managed the same buses very well. Also the MAN/MCV buses of approx 2005, several operators could not wait to get rid of them, but Autocar of Kent sems to collect them and manage to get them to work ok.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Feel free to state your source for this?
My post was based on this article.

Promise kept: demonstrably lower fuel consumption with Euro VI-certified Mercedes-Benz Citaro and Setra ComfortClass | marsMediaSite

Promise kept: demonstrably lower fuel consumption with Euro VI-certified Mercedes-Benz Citaro and Setra ComfortClass

media.daimler.com

38.7l per 100km works out as 6mpg, so I suggest that you are mistaken?

That article appears to be from 8 years ago. Since then, the Citaro has become more fuel efficient. Pretty much every operator who has both sets has told me that ones issued in the last 2-3 years are lighter on fuel.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Yes they do have issues with all their generations of Citaro. All I know is that they have reliability issues and before the current situation, were going to be replaced by ADLs. I'm sorry but I don't know if they are being sent to any sort of Mercedes Benz outlet.

The reason I ask is that many small operators do as much as they can in-house as it's cheaper for them to do so but it also means that they do not get the same level of expertise as you would get from a Omniplus centre who are only too happy to work with their customers to resolve issues and try and pin things down and resolve.

 

[Robertj21a]

So the question is why do Kinchbus have such issues with all their generations of Citaros, if that is what you are stating? it seems a very strange affair if a number of other operators do not have the same problem?

Have they worked with Mercedes on the problems or sent the vehicles to their nearest Omniplus Busport accredited dealer to be examined or are they doing everything in house?

It would seem very strange if an operator like Wellglade (Trent, Kinch etc) hadn't tried everything possible to sort out their fleet of Citaros. To now replace them with E20D MMCs suggests that they have finally given up.

 

[MotCO]

London General operated Citaros on their Red Arrow routes fron 2009 - 2016, when they were replaced by electric buses. This would appear to be after 7 years contract, by which time the Citaros could have been sold on if London General was not happy with them - I would assue that they would have been depreciated down to residual value by then. The fact that few were actually sold - most were used on other services, or for the training/commercial fleet - suggests that they did not have any issues with them.

 

[GusB]

Just a reminder to keep the thread on topic. If you wish to discuss any of the separate issues (Citaro fuel economy, Isle of Man buses etc.) that have arisen in this thread, please do so in separate threads. Thanks

 

[Mwanesh]

Van Hool can body any chassis. There are Scania , Volvo and VDL which is the intergral.

 

[GusB]

Van Hool can body any chassis. There are Scania , Volvo and VDL which is the intergral.

Therein lies one of the reasons why we don't export as much to the continent as we used to; we simply have no domestic manufacturers offering a separate chassis/underframe for bodying by outside concerns. With bus production in the UK being almost completely vertically integrated, and continental manufacturers already having an established foothold in the various European markets, it was always going to be difficult to sell abroad.

Going back a few decades, the likes of AEC and Leyland sold products to the continent to have them bodied locally and were able to compete with DAF, Volvo and Scania, even to countries which had their own domestic manufacturers. I don't think we've had anyone building a separate chassis since the Drat and the Javelin.

 

[MotCO]

Therein lies one of the reasons why we don't export as much to the continent as we used to; we simply have no domestic manufacturers offering a separate chassis/underframe for bodying by outside concerns. With bus production in the UK being almost completely vertically integrated, and continental manufacturers already having an established foothold in the various European markets, it was always going to be difficult to sell abroad.

Going back a few decades, the likes of AEC and Leyland sold products to the continent to have them bodied locally and were able to compete with DAF, Volvo and Scania, even to countries which had their own domestic manufacturers. I don't think we've had anyone building a separate chassis since the Drat and the Javelin.

One argument for vertical integration was that the costs were lower, and the final selling price lower (one reason why ADL didn't want to body Volvos for the Irish market if I recall correctly). How do our continental brethren overcome this? Wouldn't this mean that UK integrated products could be sold more cheaply than body on chassis offerings?

 

[507021]

I don't think we've had anyone building a separate chassis since the Drat and the Javelin.

I suppose there's the Enterprise Bus Plasma which the Plaxton Primo was based on, but they didn't sell in a large volume and I don't think any were ever exported.

EDIT: It turns out some were exported, to Australia and New Zealand.

 

[hst43102]

I suppose there's the Enterprise Bus Plasma which the Plaxton Primo was based on, but they didn't sell in a large volume and I don't think any were ever exported.

EDIT: It turns out some were exported, to Australia and New Zealand.

I believe it was a New Zealand design in the first place, manufactured by Designline? I may be wrong...

 

[37114]

Therein lies one of the reasons why we don't export as much to the continent as we used to; we simply have no domestic manufacturers offering a separate chassis/underframe for bodying by outside concerns. With bus production in the UK being almost completely vertically integrated, and continental manufacturers already having an established foothold in the various European markets, it was always going to be difficult to sell abroad.

Going back a few decades, the likes of AEC and Leyland sold products to the continent to have them bodied locally and were able to compete with DAF, Volvo and Scania, even to countries which had their own domestic manufacturers. I don't think we've had anyone building a separate chassis since the Drat and the Javelin.

The Enviro 350s sold abroad were bodied locally in Spain. I understand that in the pursuit of weight saving most of the UK built chassis are dependent on the body to provide part of the structure, for example the Guilford built chassis are carried by a special trailer to Falkirk/Scarborough for bodywork. As ever if someone outside of the UK is desperate to have an ADL chassis and have it bodied locally and order enough of them then ADL in particular will be happy to provide, after all they have shown a similar approach to Lothian who seem to be wedded to Volvo chassis.

 

[mbonwick]

for example the Guilford built chassis are carried by a special trailer to Falkirk/Scarborough for bodywork.

It's only special in the sense that it's a modified car transporter to cope with the longer length and shallower approach/departure angles of the bus chassis! The chassis are rolled on and off and are self supporting during the journey.

The fact of the matter is that proper body-on-chassis construction is long gone, even for what people consider "traditional" heavyweight chassis.

 

[F Great Eastern]

As ever if someone outside of the UK is desperate to have an ADL chassis and have it bodied locally and order enough of them then ADL in particular will be happy to provide, after all they have shown a similar approach to Lothian who seem to be wedded to Volvo chassis.

The problem is that ADL also then need to establish a sales and service network in those countries, an advantage that many of the other manufacturers in the same country already have which will give them a big advantage.

This is why for example ADL have never been able to win tenders in Ireland until recently because Volvo/Wright bids have been able to undercut them heavily on price because Wright are based on the island and Volvo have a large scale sales and support network which has led to them dominating the bus and coach chassis markt for the last 20 years.

That will now change in Ireland since Wright's administration meant that Volvo were not able to put together a bid late in the day for the most recent contract so ADL won the tender, despite the fact many felt that the price was quite high for what they are providing, but they've probably factored in the costs of building up infrastructure in Ireland that wll allow them to be competitive for years to come.

 

[Mikey C]

British manufacturers have a USP which is double decker buses, a type of bus which (other than the odd exception like Berlin) isn't used in continental Europe, hence it makes more sense to target export markets where they can sell to their strengths, rather than competing against continental rivals in their strength.

 

[Beemax]

Another factor is that the EU tends to use Whole Vehicle Type Approval which is economical for large scale manufacture of near- identical buses, but less economical for the more bespoke nature of UK bus manufacture. There's nothing to stop UK manufacturers obtaining ECWVTA of course (even post-Brexit) , but the volumes will rarely justify it.

 

[Swanny200]

One of the things that have struck me with the builders over here is that for instance Van Hool do Bus and Coach, Wright did do coach bodies when they first started (very nice ones if I recall correctly), but the only company building buses and coach bodies here is ADL through Plaxton, however their choices in the coach world seem odd. The new low floor wheelchair access coach hasn't really taken off, neither has the Panorama (can you see anyone outside the UK and Ireland placing orders), yes they sell loads of their bread and butter products but again, not abroad, Optare have made midi-coach bodies but nothing heavyweight so the question lies as to whether it is just worth sticking to this market instead of making stuff for continental europe (coach and bus) that nobody is really going to notice let alone buy.

 

[MotCO]

so the question lies as to whether it is just worth sticking to this market instead of making stuff for continental europe (coach and bus) that nobody is really going to notice let alone buy.

It really depends on their busines model. Do they need to expand production to sell more units to recover their fixed overheads, do they need to diversify to spread the risk of a downturn in a particular sector (e.g. I can see demand for new coaches falling due to Covid-19), do they want to be market leader to knock out the opposition etc etc.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Another factor is that the EU tends to use Whole Vehicle Type Approval which is economical for large scale manufacture of near- identical buses, but less economical for the more bespoke nature of UK bus manufacture. There's nothing to stop UK manufacturers obtaining ECWVTA of course (even post-Brexit) , but the volumes will rarely justify it.

Surely most of our buses would be ECWVTA approved anyway as we were part of the EU...

 

[cainebj]

Optare have made midi-coach bodies but nothing heavyweight so the question lies as to whether it is just worth sticking to this market instead of making stuff for continental europe (coach and bus) that nobody is really going to notice let alone buy.

Just a side note, Optare didn't make the mini and midi coaches. They were built in Spain by Ferqui and had an Optare badge slapped on them upon arrival to the UK. Since Optare stopped importing them the range has been sold by Connaught PSV, retaining the Ferqui badging.

 

[Swanny200]

Just a side note, Optare didn't make the mini and midi coaches. They were built in Spain by Ferqui and had an Optare badge slapped on them upon arrival to the UK. Since Optare stopped importing them the range has been sold by Connaught PSV, retaining the Ferqui badging.

I didn't realise that it was just a badge swapping exercise, I assume we are talking about the Bonito, Solera and Toro stuff

 

[Beemax]

Surely most of our buses would be ECWVTA approved anyway as we were part of the EU...

There is a low volume national exemption that most UK manufacturers would use for the UK market.

 

[Tetchytyke]

For what it's worth though, I think the Citaro is a poor vehicle choice for the island as they're far too small for the busier routes. And also, a lot of the drivers I asked for their opinion of the Citaros don't like them.

I live here and I'm not sure I agree. The alternatives in the UK market are all lightweight vehicles. Bus Vannin couldn't get shut of their Streetlites fast enough. The E200MMC isn't as bad as the Streetlite, it's a decent enough bus, but it isn't really an inter urban bus either, and the rattles are really noticeable even in brand new buses. The less said about MCV's dross the better.

I can't think of another bus that would do the job the Citaro does as well as the Citaro does it. The Solo SR instead of the short Citaro K, maybe.

As for the drivers, they don't like the Sprinters, the Gemini 3s or the Gemini 2s either

To get away from Manx buses (sorry @GusB !) the freedom here with a nationalised company is also why European companies don't buy UK buses. Commercial operators want cheap buses, their only focus is price, but other than the UK there isn't the same type of commercial operation. It's not a blank cheque, but there's no need to penny-pinch. But UK bus manufacturers are set up to cater for penny-pinching UK operators.

Wright used to build very good buses. Compare the Gemini 1 to the ALX400 or even the original E400. But quality has a price tag attached. And operators switched to ADL because they were cheaper, so Wright had to adapt.

The change between the Gemini 2 and Gemini 3 was dramatic, and not in a good way. So now Wrights also make cheap nasty buses that you'd only buy if you were a skinflint, and away from the UK operators are not skinflints. Even Bus Eireann won't buy Wright now.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

There is a low volume national exemption that most UK manufacturers would use for the UK market.

Okay, but I'm sure Optare at least must be ECWTVA approved since they have Solo SRs in the Netherlands and Sweden...

 

[507021]

I live here and I'm not sure I agree. The alternatives in the UK market are all lightweight vehicles. Bus Vannin couldn't get shut of their Streetlites fast enough. The E200MMC isn't as bad as the Streetlite, it's a decent enough bus, but it isn't really an inter urban bus either, and the rattles are really noticeable even in brand new buses. The less said about MCV's dross the better.

I can't think of another bus that would do the job the Citaro does as well as the Citaro does it. The Solo SR instead of the short Citaro K, maybe.

As for the drivers, they don't like the Sprinters, the Gemini 3s or the Gemini 2s either

The StreetLites really weren't great at all, I agree, and they were absolutely dreadful to drive. Whilst I'll also agree that the Citaro is a very decent product overall in the right application, on the Isle of Man there are times (AM/PM peaks on the trunk routes, TT and MGP) where their capacity is woefully inadequate, and they didn't even have luggage racks fitted until 2015 either. From a driver's point of view, I think it's worth mentioning that on at least three occasions I had to ask for a Citaro to be swapped for another bus during my duty because it was running out of fuel.

As for the fleet overall, the DB250s and Tridents were far more popular. I don't think the drivers will like the StreetDecks that are on order this year either, but at least they'll have the correct amount of seats for the busier periods.

 

[Astradyne]

There is a low volume national exemption that most UK manufacturers would use for the UK market.

National Small Series Type Approval limits you to a production run of 250 units for vehicles of M2 and M3 classes, buses and coaches.

 

[Tetchytyke]

on the Isle of Man there are times (AM/PM peaks on the trunk routes, TT and MGP) where their capacity is woefully inadequate, and they didn't even have luggage racks fitted until 2015 either

True enough, especially as (in normal times) most of the double deckers are out on schools work in the morning. The busiest runs from down south do get double deckers though, although I have seen the Citaro Ks on the Ramsey buses, which is madness. I'm surprised they're going for Streetdecks, the Gemini 3 is bad enough.

To try and stay on topic, I suppose it is telling that they're really isn't a decent double decker anymore. It's not like you can buy European for those. I'd buy an E400MMC if it were me, mind.

 

[507021]

True enough, especially as (in normal times) most of the double deckers are out on schools work in the morning. The busiest runs from down south do get double deckers though, although I have seen the Citaro Ks on the Ramsey buses, which is madness. I'm surprised they're going for Streetdecks, the Gemini 3 is bad enough.

To try and stay on topic, I suppose it is telling that they're really isn't a decent double decker anymore. It's not like you can buy European for those. I'd buy an E400MMC if it were me, mind.

Just to briefly confirm, as I've already gone way off topic, Bus Vannin are going for StreetDecks because Wrightbus aren't (or weren't at the time) offering Volvo chassis options.

 

[cainebj]

I didn't realise that it was just a badge swapping exercise, I assume we are talking about the Bonito, Solera and Toro stuff

Yes, just the old Bonito/Soroco, Toro and Solera. The new Bonito, plugging the gap left by the Alero, was being imported from another mainland EU manufacturer, I can't remember who, but that wasn't a success. EVM later tried to market the same bus and also failed.