Should UK manufacturers develop more products for Continental Europe?

[hst43102]

My bad, I thought the Versa was still made lol

The Versa is still made! It's just an out-of-date design now.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

They stopped making the C2 a couple of years ago I seem to recall, This is a 68 plate GL CapaCity model

Which one are you talking about? If it's BF68 ZHB then no it's a Citaro C2. With the only slight difference compared to the others being that BF68 ZHB is hybrid and the others are diesel.

 

[hst43102]

Wasn't Polski owned by Souter, hence the ADL link up? That's not to say Plaxton could market coaches abroad, after all we import a lot from Europe, so why can't the reverse be true?

I believe Souter did have a stake in Polski at the time. I think the Panther / Leopard would be the most likely to be a success in the continent.

 

[CM]

They stopped making the C2 a couple of years ago I seem to recall, This is a 68 plate GL CapaCity model

Mercedes-Benz still make the C2 which is the current model of the Citaro although whether or not any UK operators are still buying them is another thing.

 

[Swanny200]

Which one are you talking about? If it's BF68 ZHB then no it's a Citaro C2. With the only slight difference compared to the others being that BF68 ZHB is hybrid and the others are diesel.

Yes it is that one, I wasn't aware that was still the C2.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I was going to say, the Leopard Interurban like the ones that Lothian have are likely to be a success for Continental Europe. Especially in France, where they love step entrance interurban buses (idk why, step entrance on local bus services makes services really unreliable even if they have wheelchair access lol).

The Panther LE in Continental Europe form is also in my opinion, likely to be a success for Continental Europe. Though most likely in Germany, Netherlands, Sweden and Norway where they love interurban low floor buses on rural bus services (especially the Netherlands and Germany which seem as low floor mad as the UK). The Panther LE could sell well in Italy as well, since in Italy there's been a changing attitude, with quite a lot of bus companies now buying low floor interurban buses to replace their old step entrance stuff (but there are also some companies which still buy step entrance stuff).

 

[hst43102]

I was going to say, the Leopard Interurban like the ones that Lothian have are likely to be a success for Continental Europe. Especially in France, where they love step entrance interurban buses (idk why, step entrance on local bus services makes services really unreliable even if they have wheelchair access lol).

The Panther LE in Continental Europe form is also in my opinion, likely to be a success for Continental Europe. Though most likely in Germany, Netherlands, Sweden and Norway where they love interurban low floor buses on rural bus services (especially the Netherlands and Germany which seem as low floor mad as the UK). The Panther LE could sell well in Italy as well, since in Italy there's been a changing attitude, with quite a lot of bus companies now buying low floor interurban buses to replace their old step entrance stuff (but there are also some companies which still buy step entrance stuff).

Panther LE would be perfect for Europe. A lot of companies operate low-floor coaches such as Scania OmniExpresses and Scania Interlinks

 

[Goldfish62]

You mean the Citaro C2? Again, incorrect. Cardiff Bus bought 20 of them, Blackpool Transport have 9 of them operating on their Palladium route 5. Kinchbus have them on the Skylink. And there's McGills and various other indipendent bus companies that do have a couple of Citaro C2s.

When I last looked none of them were part of GoAhead.

But fine, I'm happy to go with your contention that the view held by both manufacturers and operators that the industry prefers lightweight single decks is incorrect if it means we can move this thread forward. I suppose even if the supporting data was provided you'd say it was wrong.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

When I last looked none of them were part of GoAhead.

But fine, I'm happy to go with your contention that the view held by both manufacturers and operators that the industry prefers lightweight single decks is incorrect if it means we can move this thread forward. I suppose even if the supporting data was provided you'd say it was wrong.

I never said that UK bus companies prefer lightweight buses. The fact that they prefer lightweight buses is true, and you are correct on that.
What I'm correcting on you is that there are a lot of heavyweight single decker buses in the UK too, and that they are very common (though of course not as common as lightweight buses).

Panther LE would be perfect for Europe. A lot of companies operate low-floor coaches such as Scania OmniExpresses and Scania Interlinks

I 100% agree with you! Just one correction to make, the OmniExpress and Interlink are step entrance. The equivalent would be OmniLink (which we have a lot in the UK) and Citywide LE respectively.

Low-floor coaches as I just stated are very common in Germany, Netherlands, Sweden and Norway. And recently they're becoming common in Italy too.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

In addition, I believe Brexit is the reason why hardly any UK bus company is ordering heavyweight single deckers such as the Citaro.

 

[Swanny200]

The MCV Evora was heavyweight too, is that a reason it didn't sell well or was it another reason

 

[Bungle965]

The MCV Evora was heavyweight too, is that a reason it didn't sell well or was it another reason

The build quality on them was reported (by other forum members) as being poor, perhaps part of the reasoning.

 

[hst43102]

I never said that UK bus companies prefer lightweight buses. The fact that they prefer lightweight buses is true, and you are correct on that.
What I'm correcting on you is that there are a lot of heavyweight single decker buses in the UK too, and that they are very common (though of course not as common as lightweight buses).



I 100% agree with you! Just one correction to make, the OmniExpress and Interlink are step entrance. The equivalent would be OmniLink (which we have a lot in the UK) and Citywide LE respectively.

Low-floor coaches as I just stated are very common in Germany, Netherlands, Sweden and Norway. And recently they're becoming common in Italy too.

In that case you haven't seen a low entry Omniexpress or interlink. Google it!

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Oh yeah sorry I forgot about the OmniExpress 320LE! Yes, Norway and Sweden have loads of them.

 

[CBlue]

In addition, I believe Brexit is the reason why hardly any UK bus company is ordering heavyweight single deckers such as the Citaro.

Probably more to do with the better fuel economy lightweight saloons offer. ADL claim 9MPG for a E200MMC, while a Citaro does about 6. Internal layout of the Citaro also means they don't tend to have that many more seats - so a long E200 is far cheaper to purchase and operate and offers equivalent capacity.

 

[F Great Eastern]

They stopped making the C2 a couple of years ago I seem to recall, This is a 68 plate GL CapaCity model

I'm afraid that's incorrect. That vehicle is a Citaro O295

The C2 is still active but not in it's original form as it's since been facelifted. The C2.2, the revised version can still be ordered in right hand drive as the C2.3 has not been adapted for right hand drive yet.

The CapaCity, like the Conecto is product family in it's own right. It is a super long arctic. They have been influenced by the Citaro, but they have never been badged as Citaros and should not be considered as one.

The Original CapaCity (O530 GL) has been around since 2007 and the first version was different from the standard Citaro because despite being approx 2m longer than the 17.5m Citaro artic, it had a similar turning circle thanks to it's fourth axle which was electro hydraulically steered and modified front suspension. It can be seen in Istanbul, Granada and Bratislava.

In 2014 they then developed the technology to create the next generation CapaCity L (O530 GL II) which was a longer, more modern version aimed at BRT deployments really and also included among other things an update to the suspension, a reduction in body weight and new articulated turntable technology. Also a shorter version was then developed at 19.7m and replaced the original CapaCity, taking over that name. It can be seen in Vienna, various places in the Netherlands and Bratislava.

The main competitor of the CapaCity is the MAN Lion City GXL.

 

[hst43102]

In addition, I believe Brexit is the reason why hardly any UK bus company is ordering heavyweight single deckers such as the Citaro.

Not sure Brexit is the main reason. Apart from London, Citaros have always been scarce in the U.K., and Stagecoach and First have replaced their Scania/Volvo orders with E200MMCs which are more efficient. Times change, so do the buses

 

[Robertj21a]

In addition, I believe Brexit is the reason why hardly any UK bus company is ordering heavyweight single deckers such as the Citaro.

Nope. Totally irrelevant.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Panther LE would be perfect for Europe. A lot of companies operate low-floor coaches such as Scania OmniExpresses and Scania Interlinks

You also have the Sunsundegui SB3 Low Entry which is built on the B8RLE bus chassis which is technically a coach.

The main problem with that vehicle though is that it looks like they've literally hacked the standard high line SB3 body off the B8R high line coach body and then forced it onto the bus chassis as quick and dirtily as possible with absolutely no regard for layout and aesthetics and you end up with a dogs dinner of an internal layout.

At least the Panther LE looks like ADL have spent a bit of money trying to make it look like a product in it's own right rather than a cheap conversion from another chassis with the minimum amount of effort.

 

[hst43102]

You also have the Sunsundegui SB3 Low Entry which is built on the B8RLE bus chassis which is technically a coach.

The main problem with that vehicle though is that it looks like they've literally hacked the standard high line SB3 body off the B8R high line coach body and then forced it onto the bus chassis as quick and dirtily as possible with absolutely no regard for layout and aesthetics and you end up with a dogs dinner of an internal layout.

At least the Panther LE looks like ADL have spent a bit of money trying to make it look like a product in it's own right rather than a cheap conversion from another chassis with the minimum amount of effort.

Forgot about those, they use them in Northern Ireland! Have to say, I've not been on a low floor coach so couldn't comment on the practicality of the layout!

 

[SouthEastBuses]

You also have the Sunsundegui SB3 Low Entry which is built on the B8RLE bus chassis which is technically a coach.

The main problem with that vehicle though is that it looks like they've literally hacked the standard high line SB3 body off the B8R high line coach body and then forced it onto the bus chassis as quick and dirtily as possible with absolutely no regard for layout and aesthetics and you end up with a dogs dinner of an internal layout.

At least the Panther LE looks like ADL have spent a bit of money trying to make it look like a product in it's own right rather than a cheap conversion from another chassis with the minimum amount of effort.

Sunsundengui SB3 Low Entry are very common in Continental Europe, but only in Spain!

 

[Jordan Adam]

The Panther LE wouldn't sell in Europe. The capacity of it is far too low for the size of when when compared to the other "interurban" style vehicles on the market.

Did ADL ever dabble with Articulated buses, the only one I can think of were the Interurbans that Plaxton did over 20 years ago, all 2 of them I think, Optare I don't remember ever doing any artic work, even BYD's involvement with ADL I doubt would bring any recent artic experience (as I am assuming the design and tech of articulated vehicles would have come on in 2 decades) as I'm sure they haven't done anything. The only British option with any relevant experience in the field would be Wrightbus and even then, when was the last artic they did?

No they never did, the only Artic ADL/Alexanders ever built was K1GRT. ADLs position has long been that they won't develop an artic as they have the Enviro500 already.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Forgot about those, they use them in Northern Ireland! Have to say, I've not been on a low floor coach so couldn't comment on the practicality of the layout!

Just a slight correction, it's used in the Republic of Ireland, not the UK-owned Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland has step entrance SC5s.

 

[hst43102]

Just a slight correction, it's used in the Republic of Ireland, not the UK-owned Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland has step entrance SC5s.

I thought Translink ordered some? I'm probably remembering it wrong!

 

[SouthEastBuses]

You also have the Sunsundegui SB3 Low Entry which is built on the B8RLE bus chassis which is technically a coach.

The main problem with that vehicle though is that it looks like they've literally hacked the standard high line SB3 body off the B8R high line coach body and then forced it onto the bus chassis as quick and dirtily as possible with absolutely no regard for layout and aesthetics and you end up with a dogs dinner of an internal layout.

At least the Panther LE looks like ADL have spent a bit of money trying to make it look like a product in it's own right rather than a cheap conversion from another chassis with the minimum amount of effort.

Also I forgot to say, Sunsundegui is a Spanish company, not British/Irish.

 

[Mikey C]

I doubt there is quite the same interest in lìghter weight buses across Europe when many bus services are run under tender or franchise. It's the UĶ that expects that most bus servìces can be run commercially.

But if a lighter weight bus uses less fuel and emits less CO2, there are also potential environmental benefits too, so I'm slightly surprised European bus designs didn't go slightly more in the UK direction?

I suspect the move towards electric buses will affect things anyway, to me the BYD/ADL E200EV feels more substantial and like a heavyweight bus than the regular E200MMC

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I thought Translink ordered some? I'm probably remembering it wrong!

Translink have step entrance SC5s.

They ordered SB3 Low Entry too?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Forgot about those, they use them in Northern Ireland! Have to say, I've not been on a low floor coach so couldn't comment on the practicality of the layout!

The problem with them is not that they are low floor, more that the standard SB3 itself was designed for the B8R high line coach body and never for a low entry layout based on a bus chassis.

Rather than design a low floor product in it's own right for the B8RLE chassis, they just tried to keep as much common as possible between the two versions which resulted in some questionable design choices being made in the sake of keeping things in common and saving money to aid their chances of winning a tender.

Here's the layout of the low floor SB3 LE B8RLE (CLICK HERE) from here.
Here's the high floor SB3 B8R (click) from here.

As you can see, it's not a great conversion.

 

[Eyersey468]

The build quality on them was reported (by other forum members) as being poor, perhaps part of the reasoning.

I've no experience of the Evora but the build quality on our Evosetis is shocking, that's partly why after the Go Ahead takeover we switched to ADL.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

But if a lighter weight bus uses less fuel and emits less CO2, there are also potential environmental benefits too, so I'm slightly surprised European bus designs didn't go slightly more in the UK direction?

I suspect the move towards electric buses will affect things anyway, to me the BYD/ADL E200EV feels more substantial and like a heavyweight bus than the regular E200MMC

Yeah true. One of the many things I love about the UK. Practically everywhere in the UK is now ordering electric buses, and London even has the largest electric bus fleet in the whole of Europe!!!

Whilst in Continental Europe, hardly anyone seems to be ordering electric buses. They all seem to prefer hybrids and CNGs, for now.