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Why do some passengers tell silly lies?

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Greenback

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True enough, but the thread moved on to encompass more general assumptions about the honesty or otherwise of people 'trying it on'. I'm sure experienced guards such as kwvr45 develop a sort of sixth sense that the rest of us don't have, but in some of his posts he does seem very black and white.

I just wanted to make it clear as jcollins had gone back to the original post immediately after your post!

I have found in all my customer facing jobs that you develop an instinct about people, but that is also likely to come from your own values and assumptions about people's appearances, as well as your own experiences. For instance, you may expect people in FC to be smartly dressed, both because the majority are and also because you, as an individual, expect FC travellers to do so. Therefore, if you see someone with a scruffy vest and torn jeans, you expect them not to have a FC ticket! It's human nature, and it's so difficult not to do it!
 
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jon0844

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Stereotypes exists because, most of the time, they will be absolutely correct.

What you must ensure is that you don't treat people badly just because of a hunch. They could well be totally innocent (yesterday, I was in shorts, a scruffy T-Shirt and white trainers so I'd have looked somewhat dodgy) so although you might initially target such people based on a stereotype - that's not a reason to assume guilt in the way you deal with them until you can established the facts.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I've seen people on a train that I have been certain are up to no good, then they've been subjected to a ticket check and have all been fine. Then you spot someone in a suit who was trying it on. You have to accept that you won't always be right, but these are usually exceptions to the rule.

And once you're proven right, then it's time to do your job. If someone is being cocky with you, I see no issue in being a little sarcastic or condescending in return. Of course, you have to be prepared for any possible consequences if someone takes exception to it. Training no doubt covers all of this but we're all human at the end of the day.
 

4SRKT

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Stereotypes exists because, most of the time, they will be absolutely correct.

What you must ensure is that you don't treat people badly just because of a hunch. They could well be totally innocent (yesterday, I was in shorts, a scruffy T-Shirt and white trainers so I'd have looked somewhat dodgy) so although you might initially target such people based on a stereotype - that's not a reason to assume guilt in the way you deal with them until you can established the facts.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I've seen people on a train that I have been certain are up to no good, then they've been subjected to a ticket check and have all been fine. Then you spot someone in a suit who was trying it on. You have to accept that you won't always be right, but these are usually exceptions to the rule.

And once you're proven right, then it's time to do your job. If someone is being cocky with you, I see no issue in being a little sarcastic or condescending in return. Of course, you have to be prepared for any possible consequences if someone takes exception to it. Training no doubt covers all of this but we're all human at the end of the day.

As a teenager I used to suffer from stereotyping a lot. Nearly every time I sat in First Class you could see other passengers looking annoyed. The guard would come along and look ready to chuck me out, much to the pleasure of the other passengers. On production of my First Class pass I would of course be allowed to stay, and most guards were pleasant enough. Some of them weren't though, maybe because they'd been assuming I shouldn't be there.

I also used to travel on the Larne > Stranraer ferry a lot. When travelling alone, without fail I was pulled by the Dumfries & Galloway Police to fill in their silly prevention of terrorism form. I could see one of them moving to intercept me when I was half way down the gangplank. Their attitude changed somewhat when they heard my English accent, but they still made me fill in the form. I must have my own dedicated filing cabinet in a police station in Dumfries somwhere! One time I was attempting to travel Belfast > Edinburgh > London > Cardiff > Dublin > Belfast (my 'Five Capitals' tour) by rail in the shortest time possible (managed it in 40 hours BTW), and filled in both origin and destination of my journey on the form as 'Belfast'. This wasn't regarded as acceptable, and I was detained for about quarter of an hour until I eventually convinced them that that was the sort of thing gricers do, and they let me go on, shaking their heads in disbelief. What, if anything, have I learned from all this? That if I wanted to bring explosives out of Northern Ireland as a foot passenger, wear a suit and put the semtex in a briefcase. This would have been enough to bamboozle the skilled and perceptive defenders of our national security.

Only relaying these stories to show that stereotyping is a very dangerous way in which to come to conclusions.
 
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Greenback

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There's alos the possibility that someone not smartly dressed has made a genuine mistake, and thought they were sitting in a standard coach. With experience of people trying it on, supported by the sterotype FC passenger, the guard is more likely to believe the person is trying it on! Yes, stereotyping is dangerous but diffcult to avoid, even with the best intentions in the world!
 

222007

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Mumrar as a collegue of your's i fully appreciate your frustrations. The problem is i dont think people are used to us having first class along this route silly as that sounds. The fact that there are first class sticks head rests lamps and plugs is elimentary. I have issues on certain morning service and now take a zero tolerence view no first class ticket they are asked if they'd like to upgrade or move on day one. day two if they are in there again they will be Cautioned and reported for the offence. I will always give people a chance to explain why there doing what they are but for some reason people who get on a train seem to feel telling the truth will do them no favours and end up in more bother
 

googolplex

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I was travelling with FGW from Paddington to Swansea last year and had a group of people get into the first class carriage I was in at Cardiff, saying to each other they couldn't be bothered to walk further up the train.
They were there for about 5-10 minutes before the conductor came through, but all they got was moved on, which doesn't seem like much of an incentive for people not to sit there and chance it.
Had they not been so vocal I probably wouldn't have minded as much, but it was one of the few occasions I was actually working on the train, and they were disturbing me when they shouldn't have been there.
 

jon0844

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Only relaying these stories to show that stereotyping is a very dangerous way in which to come to conclusions.

We probably all suffer stereotyping to some degree - and at different times in our life.

Later in life, you'll be walking by a school and have to contend with people thinking you're a paedophile if you dared to say hello or smile at a child (or sit next to one on a plane, it seems).

Sadly, people will always make judgements. It's human nature.
 

90019

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Sadly, people will always make judgements. It's human nature.

Very true. It's unfortunate that stereotyping is often an unconscious thing that people do without being completely aware that they're are doing it.
I don't have so much of an issue with this, as everyone does it, despite what some people claim.


What I do find annoying is those that deliberately and consciously stereotype others, for whatever reason, whether it's as a way of simplifying their outlook and views of others or just because they can't be bothered to actually find out about people before making judgements.
 

Greenback

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I was travelling with FGW from Paddington to Swansea last year and had a group of people get into the first class carriage I was in at Cardiff, saying to each other they couldn't be bothered to walk further up the train.
They were there for about 5-10 minutes before the conductor came through, but all they got was moved on, which doesn't seem like much of an incentive for people not to sit there and chance it.
Had they not been so vocal I probably wouldn't have minded as much, but it was one of the few occasions I was actually working on the train, and they were disturbing me when they shouldn't have been there.

There's no excuse for that, but the TM is usually at the other end of the train to FC. Wasn;t there a Customer Host or soemthing there? They normally ask to see my ticket in FC, but then perhaps I look like I shouldn;t be there lol!

We probably all suffer stereotyping to some degree - and at different times in our life.

Later in life, you'll be walking by a school and have to contend with people thinking you're a paedophile if you dared to say hello or smile at a child (or sit next to one on a plane, it seems).

Sadly, people will always make judgements. It's human nature.

Last week I went to town and on the way back found myself walking past a school at chucking out time. I felt most uncomfortable with all the women staring at me like I was up to no good! Such is the paranoia these days around schools!
 

4SRKT

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Last week I went to town and on the way back found myself walking past a school at chucking out time. I felt most uncomfortable with all the women staring at me like I was up to no good! Such is the paranoia these days around schools!

They probably just thought you were a railway enthusiast!
 

jon0844

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What I do find annoying is those that deliberately and consciously stereotype others, for whatever reason, whether it's as a way of simplifying their outlook and views of others or just because they can't be bothered to actually find out about people before making judgements.

People like you would say that. ;)
 

bnm

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Travelling home from a ramble and overnight camp on Dartmoor last year I was looking decidedly dishevelled and I'd managed to lose the dog's leash so she was on a length of baling twine. I had a 1st Advance ticket for my trip from Plymouth to Bristol and was sitting quietly in the corner minding my own business. On departure from Plymouth the TM came through to do a ticket check and proceeded to turf out two 'suits' who had STD Advance tickets for a different train (and TOC!!!). They were loud, obnoxious and rude to the TM and on seeing me they asked the TM if he was going to turf out the homeless guy as well. Showed my ticket, got a 'Thank-you, Sir' from the TM and then waved my house keys at the two 'suits'!

Stereotypes!
 
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northwichcat

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As a teenager I used to suffer from stereotyping a lot. Nearly every time I sat in First Class you could see other passengers looking annoyed. The guard would come along and look ready to chuck me out, much to the pleasure of the other passengers. On production of my First Class pass I would of course be allowed to stay, and most guards were pleasant enough. Some of them weren't though, maybe because they'd been assuming I shouldn't be there.

One day when I was travelling on a train a scruffy looking teenager with a backpack came and sat in front of me. When the conductor came through for a ticket check he patted his pockets and said "Oh No I've lost my wallet" I didn't believe him and I don't think the conductor did. The conductor continued to check other people's tickets and the teenager emptied out his rucksack, found his wallet and had tickets for the journey he was making which were the style issued at a ticket office, so he clearly hadn't been trying to avoid paying his fare and had just forgotten where he put his wallet.

Whether you're in a FC section of a train, plane, in a luxury hotel or in an expensive restaurant people assume you should be smartly dressed but the question to ask is why. You're the one spending extra money and you seem to lose the choice of how you wish to dress by spending more money, which is illogical.
 

4SRKT

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One day when I was travelling on a train a scruffy looking teenager with a backpack came and sat in front of me. When the conductor came through for a ticket check he patted his pockets and said "Oh No I've lost my wallet" I didn't believe him and I don't think the conductor did. The conductor continued to check other people's tickets and the teenager emptied out his rucksack, found his wallet and had tickets for the journey he was making which were the style issued at a ticket office, so he clearly hadn't been trying to avoid paying his fare and had just forgotten where he put his wallet.

Whether you're in a FC section of a train, plane, in a luxury hotel or in an expensive restaurant people assume you should be smartly dressed but the question to ask is why. You're the one spending extra money and you seem to lose the choice of how you wish to dress by spending more money, which is illogical.


Maybe the only reason some people can afford FC is because they spend no money on clothes! Even when I had a FC pass tho I still spent next to nothing on clothes. Still, I have a large record collection and a beer gut to show for where the money did go ;)
 

jon0844

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Stereotypes!

I've seen many suits, often in a group, that are the most obnoxious people you'd ever meet. The sort of 'do you know who I am?' type. When I used to commute to Liverpool Street, these were almost certainly people who worked in the City of London, in a bank or were traders etc. If you saw them, you'd probably go seeking out a bunch of hoodies to sit with instead!

I saw a fair few that just used to pull out a tenner (as was the PF amount at the time) and try and pay the gripper as if it was some sort of tip to 'move along'.

And I've also seen very well dressed ladies, in their late 40s and 50s who could be incredibly foul mouthed and abusive to staff.

The thing is, I still think stereotyping still works. I bet you could quite accurately tell from body language, or simply how people talk to each other, as to what they'd be like in certain situations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Whether you're in a FC section of a train, plane, in a luxury hotel or in an expensive restaurant people assume you should be smartly dressed but the question to ask is why. You're the one spending extra money and you seem to lose the choice of how you wish to dress by spending more money, which is illogical.

When I last flew Virgin Upper Class, there were very few people in suits! In fact, if you're really important then I very much doubt you'd be dressed smart. A lot of people I've met (including Richard Branson, who I once worked for) certainly don't dress up, but have rather a lot more money than the suit who is travelling on company expenses anyway.

In a restaurant or certain hotels it is different, as there might actually be a dress code.
 
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Wyvern

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The likes of Richard Branson no longer have to adopt a high status image.
 

thefab444

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The thing is, I still think stereotyping still works. I bet you could quite accurately tell from body language, or simply how people talk to each other, as to what they'd be like in certain situations.

I agree, despite every person having their own individualities, there's only really about 50 different types of person.
 

Mex

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...I still spent next to nothing on clothes. Still, I have a large record collection and a beer gut to show for where the money did go ;)

Good grief, you could be describing me there!

I used to make a lot of trips between London & Edinburgh on GNER (and then EastCoast) in FC, and got some dirty looks from people who 'couldn't help noticing that they were considerably richer than me' due to my clothing.

Sod it, I prefer comfort to 'smartness', and I paid for my ticket, so there. :D
 

Wyvern

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got some dirty looks from people who 'couldn't help noticing that they were considerably richer than me' due to my clothing.

They probably thought you were an eccentric millionaire :lol:
 

Greenback

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I've seen many suits, often in a group, that are the most obnoxious people you'd ever meet. The sort of 'do you know who I am?' type. When I used to commute to Liverpool Street, these were almost certainly people who worked in the City of London, in a bank or were traders etc. If you saw them, you'd probably go seeking out a bunch of hoodies to sit with instead!

I saw a fair few that just used to pull out a tenner (as was the PF amount at the time) and try and pay the gripper as if it was some sort of tip to 'move along'.

And I've also seen very well dressed ladies, in their late 40s and 50s who could be incredibly foul mouthed and abusive to staff.

The thing is, I still think stereotyping still works. I bet you could quite accurately tell from body language, or simply how people talk to each other, as to what they'd be like in certain situations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


When I last flew Virgin Upper Class, there were very few people in suits! In fact, if you're really important then I very much doubt you'd be dressed smart. A lot of people I've met (including Richard Branson, who I once worked for) certainly don't dress up, but have rather a lot more money than the suit who is travelling on company expenses anyway.

In a restaurant or certain hotels it is different, as there might actually be a dress code.

I remember a particularly obnoxious and foul mouthed tirade by Jeff Banks on the footbridge of Reading station. He looked like he'd rummaged through several Whitley dustbins to find soemthing to wear that morning.
 

janb

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I remember a particularly obnoxious and foul mouthed tirade by Jeff Banks on the footbridge of Reading station. He looked like he'd rummaged through several Whitley dustbins to find soemthing to wear that morning.

I know someone who used to work at Preston station who tells a good story about Jeff Banks being rude and obnoxious (apparently to use Private Eye speak rather "tired and emotional") so clearly not an isolated incident.
 

Helvellyn

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I'm sure experienced guards such as kwvr45 develop a sort of sixth sense that the rest of us don't have, but in some of his posts he does seem very black and white.

I'd say we do develop a sixth sense, through experience. And yes, the way some of us put things on here is very black and white. Then again, most of us on here aren't a budding William Shakespeare or Alan Bennett with a subtle mastery of the written word. I'd also add that from a staff point of view most of us on here don't talk about where we use discretion, common sense, etc. That's because it's generally automatic. What we talk about is what we see that is odd, wrong, different, etc - however unbelievable it can seem!
 

4SRKT

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I'd better make sure I only say nice things about kwvr45 on here because I imagine he works my local line, and I don't want him using his sixth sense on me thank you very much ;)
 

richw

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some customers just think that staff are stupid, i had on tuesday a customer complain to a colleague that i'd been rude to him an hour previous to his discussion with her, however when he identified me, he was arguing with my colleague it was definitly me, although i wasnt working an hour previous, and in fact there wasnt any males working in the building an hour previous, the staff of the day shift on tuesday was all female, yet he still argued, and wanted compensating for the "male" who'd been rude to him, so much for the customer always being right lol
 
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