Should Class 800 be ordered for the Cross Country franchise?

[Bletchleyite]

If the internal quality is the concern, surely refurbishing the Voyagers would be significantly cheaper than new build?

You certainly could do that (if you've ever been in Coach D of an Avanti unit you'll know it is possible to have a pleasant layout), but it won't remove the vibration and it might be expensive to enlarge the luggage racks because the reason they are small is that the space is used for various conduits. And you'll still have a stinking DMU belching filth all over the unfortunate users of New St.

 

[BigCj34]

If the internal quality is the concern, surely refurbishing the Voyagers would be significantly cheaper than new build?

I think the issue is the rumbling engine underneath the floor, which would be difficult to fix. I do not suspect a majority of users notice this and is not a reason to scrap a perfectly functional fleet which might struggle to find use elsewhere. The toilet smell ought to be more easily fixable though.

 

[Neptune]

One issue with the internal layout was the insistence of providing a fully accessible toilet in every coach (except the shop coach) earring up valuable space. They only needed one fully accessible toilet between first and standard as per the 180’s with standard toilets elsewhere. This would have at least uplifted seating and luggage space bit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the issue is the rumbling engine underneath the floor, which would be difficult to fix. I do not suspect a majority of users notice this and is not a reason to scrap a perfectly functional fleet which might struggle to find use elsewhere. The toilet smell ought to be more easily fixable though.

The new style double-doored standard module doesn't seem to have that issue, so take it out and fit those.

 

[MotCO]

If XC was to switch to bi-mode to make use of the available OH, is there sufficient OH on any diversionary routes, or is it only available on the main routes? Would this mean that diesel would still have to be used on long stretches of track?

 

[Domh245]

Would this mean that diesel would still have to be used on long stretches of track?

It'd have to be used for long stretches anyway. More or less the whole network is unelectrified apart from Birmingham-Manchester and Doncaster/York - Glasgow/Edinburgh, with a few other stretches south of Birmingham

 

[Purple Orange]

Surely in the time it would take XC to order a new fleet of Class 8xx', the Class 22x's would already be available? It does not seem that ordering a new fleet will add any additional capacity sooner henceforth, so would the capacity available from the cascaded fleet of 47 Close 22x's be enough to solve XC's capacity issues?

It needs to be all done on a basis of removing diesel operation as much as possible. It is in the power of the DfT to replace the voyagers and it is getting to the point where a government can be seen to be knowingly negligent towards protecting the environment. If diesel cars are being phased out, do too must diesel trains and bimodes are a means towards reducing this awful pollution. The 22X units, like all diesel traction, now has clock ticking on it. Even the new 195 units should have a much shorter life cycle, not because of the units becoming obsolete, but out of necessity to reduce carbon output.

 

[London Trains]

When HS2 is open, XC will become redundant.

On the Birmingham - Manchester corridor, fast services will not be required. The services should be taken over by LNWR and run every 30m calling at more stops such as Kidsgrove, Congleton and Cheadle Hulme. They would be operated by 350s and between Birmingham and Stafford, would form 4tph (every 15m) with the Birmingham to Liverpool services. There will be no Northern services between Stoke and Macclesfield with the Northern services starting at Macclesfield. Birmingham to Crewe via Stoke will not need to run as after HS2 is opened, as there can be 2tph London to Crewe via the Trent Valley and one can go via Stoke.

From Birmingham to Reading/Bournemouth, anything from Reading southwards will be faster to change in London from HS2, so services will only need to operate to Oxford. These can be transferred to Chiltern, and both will go via Coventry as there will be only 2tph Avanti after HS2 opens. They will also call at Kenilworth, replacing WMR services between Leamington and Coventry.

Birmingham to Leeds/Sheffield/Newcastle will become completely redundant. 4tph commuter services should run along the corridor from Birmingham to Nottingham (2tph) and Sheffield (2tph) providing Tamworth and Burton with 4tph. These these would be transferred to EMR. Birmingham to Stansted/Leicester has no relevance to HS2 but would also be transferred to EMR.

Birmingham to Bristol/Plymouth/Penzance/Cardiff will still need to run, but services would go no further than Birmingham. They can be transferred to GWR and run with a new order of 802s.

 

[Senex]

When HS2 is open, XC will become redundant.

On the Birmingham - Manchester corridor, fast services will not be required. The services should be taken over by LNWR and run every 30m calling at more stops such as Kidsgrove, Congleton and Cheadle Hulme. They would be operated by 350s and between Birmingham and Stafford, would form 4tph (every 15m) with the Birmingham to Liverpool services. There will be no Northern services between Stoke and Macclesfield with the Northern services starting at Macclesfield. Birmingham to Crewe via Stoke will not need to run as after HS2 is opened, as there can be 2tph London to Crewe via the Trent Valley and one can go via Stoke.

From Birmingham to Reading/Bournemouth, anything from Reading southwards will be faster to change in London from HS2, so services will only need to operate to Oxford. These can be transferred to Chiltern, and both will go via Coventry as there will be only 2tph Avanti after HS2 opens. They will also call at Kenilworth, replacing WMR services between Leamington and Coventry.

Birmingham to Leeds/Sheffield/Newcastle will become completely redundant. 4tph commuter services should run along the corridor from Birmingham to Nottingham (2tph) and Sheffield (2tph) providing Tamworth and Burton with 4tph. These these would be transferred to EMR. Birmingham to Stansted/Leicester has no relevance to HS2 but would also be transferred to EMR.

Birmingham to Bristol/Plymouth/Penzance/Cardiff will still need to run, but services would go no further than Birmingham. They can be transferred to GWR and run with a new order of 802s.

You seem to be assuming a willingness not just to change trains but also to change stations that many people would not share with you. Changing stations in London is something best avoided at the best of times if you're less than young and fit or travelling with any more luggage than just a briefcase. And the change of stations planned for Birmingham will not be that attractive. We're told it will be no more than changing between New Street and Moor Street, but for many of us even that is something to be avoided if at all possible, even at the cost of 20-30 minutes more in a through train. And on the Manchester route, won't there still be a market for fast services between there and the Wolverhampton end of the Birmingham conurbation better provided for by the old WCML than by HS2 and a change of stations?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hang on...wouldn't they change at Old Oak, not London?

 

[London Trains]

Hang on...wouldn't they change at Old Oak, not London?

Reading passengers would change at Old Oak Common.

Basingstoke/Winchester/Southampton/Bournemouth passengers would change at Euston (unless all Weymouth trains started calling at Clapham Junction)

 

[London Trains]

You seem to be assuming a willingness not just to change trains but also to change stations that many people would not share with you. Changing stations in London is something best avoided at the best of times if you're less than young and fit or travelling with any more luggage than just a briefcase. And the change of stations planned for Birmingham will not be that attractive. We're told it will be no more than changing between New Street and Moor Street, but for many of us even that is something to be avoided if at all possible, even at the cost of 20-30 minutes more in a through train. And on the Manchester route, won't there still be a market for fast services between there and the Wolverhampton end of the Birmingham conurbation better provided for by the old WCML than by HS2 and a change of stations?

For the Manchester route, I believe it is marginally quicker to travel Manchester to Wolverhampton on HS2 to Birmingham then change onto another service to Wolverhampton. For the passengers who do not want to change, Manchester to Wolverhampton services will probably only take around 5m longer, calling at all the current stops and Kidsgrove, Congleton and maybe Cheadle Hulme.

 

[Purple Orange]

And on the Manchester route, won't there still be a market for fast services between there and the Wolverhampton end of the Birmingham conurbation better provided for by the old WCML than by HS2 and a change of stations?

I think it will be faster to change at Crewe or New St & Curzon Street. I can envisage a London Midland type operation with more intermediate stops. Afterall it is only approximately 90-100 miles and the only reason it gets an intercity service to Manchester and Birmingham is because of Manchester and Birmingham. On its own, it’ll be downgraded.

 

[Purple Orange]

For the Manchester route, I believe it is marginally quicker to travel Manchester to Wolverhampton on HS2 to Birmingham then change onto another service to Wolverhampton. For the passengers who do not want to change, Manchester to Wolverhampton services will probably only take around 5m longer, calling at all the current stops and Kidsgrove, Congleton and maybe Cheadle Hulme.

Ha beat me to it!

 

[Energy]

They will also call at Kenilworth, replacing WMR services between Leamington and Coventry.

WMR run from Leamington to Nuneaton via Coventry, the XC service does not replace the bit to Nuneaton.

 

[Purple Orange]

WMR run from Leamington to Nuneaton via Coventry, the XC service does not replace the bit to Nuneaton.

But then that probably isn’t a good enough reason to continue with a XC service as it currently stands post HS2

 

[Energy]

But then that probably isn’t a good enough reason to continue with a XC service as it currently stands post HS2

Yeah, IMO XC services can continue but going via Old Oak Common to go onto the GWR mainline as some services currently go straight Birmingham to Cheltenham Spa , this allows them to use the faster HS2, some services can still go the current routes to serve places like Coventry and Leamington.

 

[Purple Orange]

Yeah, IMO XC services can continue but going via Old Oak Common to go onto the GWR mainline as some services currently go straight Birmingham to Cheltenham Spa , this allows them to use the faster HS2, some services can still go the current routes to serve places like Coventry and Leamington.

But that would require a XC path to take up one of the 18 available in to Euston, which are all taken up are they not? The only space for non-London services on HS2 are north of Birmingham.

 

[PTR 444]

Reading passengers would change at Old Oak Common.

Basingstoke/Winchester/Southampton/Bournemouth passengers would change at Euston

Which would involve using the Underground, so a total of at least 2 changes.

unless all Weymouth trains started calling at Clapham Junction)

Clapham Junction is nowhere near HS2, unless you think the Overground is going to stop at OOC.

 

[Purple Orange]

Which would involve using the Underground, so a total of at least 2 changes.



Clapham Junction is nowhere near HS2, unless you think the Overground is going to stop at OOC.

I think that will be the way it goes. A change at OOC or through London on the underground. The long distance XC services will be a thing spoken about on forums like this.

 

[London Trains]

WMR run from Leamington to Nuneaton via Coventry, the XC service does not replace the bit to Nuneaton.

The WMR service can start at Coventry, just like it used to. Demand from Leamington (and Kenilworth) to Birmingham International (for HS2 and the Airport) and from Kenilworth to Birmingham does/will exist. The Leamington to Nuneaton demand is very small and people can change at Coventry just like they used to.

Clapham Junction is nowhere near HS2, unless you think the Overground is going to stop at OOC.

The Overground is going to stop at Old Oak Common.

 

[quantinghome]

When HS2 is open, XC will become redundant.

On the Birmingham - Manchester corridor, fast services will not be required. The services should be taken over by LNWR and run every 30m calling at more stops such as Kidsgrove, Congleton and Cheadle Hulme. They would be operated by 350s and between Birmingham and Stafford, would form 4tph (every 15m) with the Birmingham to Liverpool services. There will be no Northern services between Stoke and Macclesfield with the Northern services starting at Macclesfield. Birmingham to Crewe via Stoke will not need to run as after HS2 is opened, as there can be 2tph London to Crewe via the Trent Valley and one can go via Stoke.

From Birmingham to Reading/Bournemouth, anything from Reading southwards will be faster to change in London from HS2, so services will only need to operate to Oxford. These can be transferred to Chiltern, and both will go via Coventry as there will be only 2tph Avanti after HS2 opens. They will also call at Kenilworth, replacing WMR services between Leamington and Coventry.

Birmingham to Leeds/Sheffield/Newcastle will become completely redundant. 4tph commuter services should run along the corridor from Birmingham to Nottingham (2tph) and Sheffield (2tph) providing Tamworth and Burton with 4tph. These these would be transferred to EMR. Birmingham to Stansted/Leicester has no relevance to HS2 but would also be transferred to EMR.

Birmingham to Bristol/Plymouth/Penzance/Cardiff will still need to run, but services would go no further than Birmingham. They can be transferred to GWR and run with a new order of 802s.

So what you're suggesting is having about the same number of trains to and from Birmingham New Street, albeit stopping at more stations, but terminating at New Street instead of working through, taking up platform space which is at a premium. If you're still running Cardiff to Birmingham, then a separate Birmingham to Nottingham, why not just stick the two together as is the case now? The same applies to your other proposals.

HS2 will not serve Doncaster so why not extend Birmingham-Sheffield on to Doncaster and then Hull? These are places which are large enough to merit a direct service to Birmingham. And you may as well have that as a continuation of the Bristol/Plymouth to Birmingham service to save platform space at New Street.

Any journey starting from Coventry/Leamington/Banbury to Reading and beyond is still going to be faster on the existing route. There's no point stopping XC at Oxford because you'd still need services to run from Oxford to Reading and Reading to Basingstoke. Why go to the hassle of splitting it up?

In truth, XC isn't a proper long distance operator. Most of its journeys are over relatively short distances, with quite a lot of overlap. It combines these regional journeys together into longer routes largely for operational efficiency. Yes, this allows long distance journeys to be undertaken, but this is a useful bonus, not XC's reason to exist. Once HS2 comes along, a good proportion of those long distance journeys will move to HS2, but all that means for XC is that it can concentrate more on being a regional service. So more stops as you suggest, and certainly curtailing the northern part of the network, but still working through New Street, and with some new destinations added.

 

[BigCj34]

It needs to be all done on a basis of removing diesel operation as much as possible. It is in the power of the DfT to replace the voyagers and it is getting to the point where a government can be seen to be knowingly negligent towards protecting the environment. If diesel cars are being phased out, do too must diesel trains and bimodes are a means towards reducing this awful pollution. The 22X units, like all diesel traction, now has clock ticking on it. Even the new 195 units should have a much shorter life cycle, not because of the units becoming obsolete, but out of necessity to reduce carbon output.

The approach then would be to replace life expired diesel units with bimodes, Voyagers are not life expired yet. Come to think of it, the Class 195's possibly should have been bimodes given the amount of under the wires running for the Manchester Airport services to Barrow and Windermere.

 

[Domh245]

The Overground is going to stop at Old Oak Common.

It's currently under consideration, it's far from a given. It would also be a 700m pedestrian interchange between OOC-Hythe Lane and the HS2 station, on top of the ~20minute travel time between Clapham Junction & Willesden. Add in connection times on top..

 

[quantinghome]

Reading passengers would change at Old Oak Common.

Basingstoke/Winchester/Southampton/Bournemouth passengers would change at Euston (unless all Weymouth trains started calling at Clapham Junction)

I suspect that a Paddington/OOC/Reading/Basingstoke/Winchester/Southampton/Bournemouth service will come into existence post-HS2.

 

[Energy]

The WMR service can start at Coventry, just like it used to. Demand from Leamington (and Kenilworth) to Birmingham International (for HS2 and the Airport) and from Kenilworth to Birmingham does/will exist. The Leamington to Nuneaton demand is very small and people can change at Coventry just like they used to.

The reason why Kenilworth to Leamington or Coventry demand is low because the WMR train is too infrequent compared to the buses which take a little longer but are more frequent, if both the XC and WMR service stopped then it would be 2tph and people are a lot more likely to use it.

 

[The Ham]

I suspect that a Paddington/OOC/Reading/Basingstoke/Winchester/Southampton/Bournemouth service will come into existence post-HS2.

Even without this new service the quickest route (using existing timetables) would be to change at Old Oak Common, rail travel time between Southampton with a change at Reading and Old Oak Common would be sub 3 hours.

With a direct service to Old Oak Common it would be only a little over 2:30.

However that would require capacity enhancements to run additional paths, however even host replacing the current XC services with the new Paddington services it would make the fastest journeys to points North being on a 1.5tph frequency.

With improvements I'd expect that 3tph would be possible, that would make it to the point where some wouldn't bother with a timetable and just be able to know that it takes three hours to go where they need to get to and leave a bit more than that to go and get a train.

 

[The Ham]

In prior generations I’d agree with you on a 35-40 year life span. But times are changing fast and I don’t think diesel trains will be tolerated where there does not need to be any diesel trains.

You also have to consider that the 22x's could actually be closer to 25, maybe even slightly older than that, by the time total replacement on XC would be delivered.

 

[gg1]

Even without this new service the quickest route (using existing timetables) would be to change at Old Oak Common, rail travel time between Southampton with a change at Reading and Old Oak Common would be sub 3 hours.

With a direct service to Old Oak Common it would be only a little over 2:30.

However that would require capacity enhancements to run additional paths, however even host replacing the current XC services with the new Paddington services it would make the fastest journeys to points North being on a 1.5tph frequency.

With improvements I'd expect that 3tph would be possible, that would make it to the point where some wouldn't bother with a timetable and just be able to know that it takes three hours to go where they need to get to and leave a bit more than that to go and get a train.

So 2 changes to travel from Birmingham or Manchester to the south coast but 3 changes if travelling from Coventry, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke, Derby, Burton etc etc.

Sounds like an excellent way of encouraging potential rail passengers to drive instead.

 

[Purple Orange]

So 2 changes to travel from Birmingham or Manchester to the south coast but 3 changes if travelling from Coventry, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke, Derby, Burton etc etc.

Sounds like an excellent way of encouraging potential rail passengers to drive instead.

In all honesty, if I am travelling to the south coast, im just as likely to be going via London or even changing at New Street or Bristol.