Do open access operators benefit or hinder our railways? (and how could the situation be improved?)

[221129]

My point is valid, why should people paying expensive tickets be forced to stand on a main corridor route, whilst a small sized train of the exact same stock runs only half full, when the coaches being used for that service could be used to increase capacity the main corridor

Fairness or lack of doesnt come into it. So is irrelevant. If the busier TOC wanted to utilise that stock it could have applied to do so, but the fact the OAO got hold of it generally means the other TOC didnt want it.

 

[Ianno87]

So why do wide parts of Devon & Cornwall not have a railway service, North & West Devon, Large parts of North Cornwall???

I should have appended "....where there is a net overall benefit of doing so".

Perhaps they shuldn't have been closed in the first place (which was politically motivated at the time) but reinstating railways to those places would probably be detrimental overall to the UK (i.e. the sparsity of population and lack of development potential means benefits would not justify the costs, no matter how lovely an idea it is in principle)

 

[devonexpress]

Fairness or lack of doesnt come into it. So is irrelevant. If the busier TOC wanted to utilise that stock it could have applied to do so, but the fact the OAO got hold of it generally means the other TOC didnt want it.

I'll report that back the TOC's, we must invest in a crystal ball so we can work out when we might see demand increase and get hold of stock before an OAO does

 

[route:oxford]

No, that is not the same thing at all. Buses should be regulated across the country. It is due to the deregulation of the bus services that has allowed many communities to lose their bus services completely.

What's the difference between nationalising a railway service and nationalising an airline or nationalising a Ferry?

My nephew takes the train every day from Linlithgow to school in Edinburgh.

His cousin takes a Loganair flight everyday to and from school.

My cousin lives in Dunoon and takes the Western Ferry to work in Inverclyde Hospital every day.

It's all public transport. Either you believe that public transport should be a nationalised industry, or you don't - there's no half way.

 

[Ianno87]

I'll report that back the TOC's, we must invest in a crystal ball so we can work out when we might see demand increase and get hold of stock before an OAO does

TOCs and the DfT do forecast demand for the life of the franchise. An will often conclude that additional stock is not justified

 

[devonexpress]

TOCs and the DfT do forecast demand for the life of the franchise. An will often conclude that additional stock is not justified

And how many times have they got that wrong? Quite a few judging by the state of our railways for the last 10 years.

 

[Ianno87]

And how many times have they got that wrong? Quite a few judging by the state of our railways for the last 10 years.

Please give an example.

 

[Purple Orange]

What's the difference between nationalising a railway service and nationalising an airline or nationalising a Ferry?

My nephew takes the train every day from Linlithgow to school in Edinburgh.

His cousin takes a Loganair flight everyday to and from school.

My cousin lives in Dunoon and takes the Western Ferry to work in Inverclyde Hospital every day.

It's all public transport. Either you believe that public transport should be a nationalised industry, or you don't - there's no half way.

The airline industry can’t compare with rail or buses because it generally people do not rely on it for every day use. You have anecdotally cited your cousin and nephew, but following the demise of Flybe, there was a debate about nationalising air routes that communities rely upon. Heathrow to New York is not a service communities rely upon every day.

 

[Purple Orange]

Do you have any evidence for that?

Isn't it more to do with increased car ownership and reduced local authority funding?

Bus cuts leave a million people without a regular service

Campaigners said reductions in bus routes and funding had left some people "trapped in their homes".

www.bbc.co.uk

My issue is that it should be more universal that buses are operated on a local publicly owned system. My local bus route has come and gone frequently over the years.

 

[Iskra]

Bus cuts leave a million people without a regular service

Campaigners said reductions in bus routes and funding had left some people "trapped in their homes".

www.bbc.co.uk

My issue is that it should be more universal that buses are operated on a local publicly owned system. My local bus route has come and gone frequently over the years.

Are you prepared to pay more tax to enable that?

 

[route:oxford]

The airline industry can’t compare with rail or buses because it generally people do not rely on it for every day use. You have anecdotally cited your cousin and nephew, but following the demise of Flybe, there was a debate about nationalising air routes that communities rely upon. Heathrow to New York is not a service communities rely upon every day.

Of course people rely on air every day.

How do you think people get around between Scottish Islands? Or go to school on the Islands every day?
Or live in Glasgow or Edinburgh and work in Docklands?
Work on the Scottish Oil rigs?
Have you seen the number of people undertaking essential travel between Belfast and Heathrow even in Lockdown?

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/bb8fe/39181022.ece/AUTOCROP/h1000/2020-05-05_new_58702070_I2.JPG

It's essential public transport. If rail should be nationalised as it's an essential public transport service, so should all public transport services.

 

[Bald Rick]

Okay, but it's still a Government Department, answerable to the Treasury...

But bound by the Railways Act 1993

 

[Purple Orange]

Are you prepared to pay more tax to enable that?

Yes. We all should be. I'd argue that tax should be properly collected as opposed to allowing profits to be sent offshore.

 

[Purple Orange]

Of course people rely on air every day.

How do you think people get around between Scottish Islands? Or go to school on the Islands every day?
Or live in Glasgow or Edinburgh and work in Docklands?
Work on the Scottish Oil rigs?
Have you seen the number of people undertaking essential travel between Belfast and Heathrow even in Lockdown?

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/bb8fe/39181022.ece/AUTOCROP/h1000/2020-05-05_new_58702070_I2.JPG

It's essential public transport. If rail should be nationalised as it's an essential public transport service, so should all public transport services.

That is what I alluded to when I mentioned the flybe scenario.

 

[Iskra]

Yes. We all should be. I'd argue that tax should be properly collected as opposed to allowing profits to be sent offshore.

I think you are being somewhat idealistic and I don't think the rest of the country, the majority of whom probably don't use buses would want to pay more tax to further subsidise a service they don't use.

More tax would give people more reason to evade tax, so you wouldn't gain much if anything.

 

[xotGD]

My personal opinions:

Open access cowboys are a bunch of cherry-picking parasites. Get rid.

I want a publicly owned railway providing a public service for the public good.

 

[route:oxford]

That is what I alluded to when I mentioned the flybe scenario.

Then you went of on a bizarre and desperate bluster filled tangent claiming my nephew's cousin's inter-island daily trip on a Loganair service to school was identical to a transatlantic flight between London and New York

They aren't the same thing. Loganair are providing essential domestic travel. No different from Scotrail between Linlithgow and Waverley.

So.

If you're demanding rail services should be nationalised for the public good, why shouldn't all bus, coach, ferry and airline service be nationalised for the public good too?

 

[popeter45]

My personal opinions:

Open access cowboys are a bunch of cherry-picking parasites. Get rid.

I want a publicly owned railway providing a public service for the public good.

if a private company can offer a better service than a competitor be it private or public i cant see the problem
such competitions is what change and improvement, keep a monopoly and soon standard will drop for the same if not more cost

 

[800002]

and that is why it will be rejected.

Well maybe, maybe not, they are running non stop to Bristol Parkway so I doubt it should be two much of a problem especially if they knock a couple of carriages out of the formation. Plus the intention is to go to 802's within a couple of years.

Providing they are not taking revenue out of a subsidised franchise effectively increasing the cost to the Tax Payer then I don't have a problem with Open Access.

I think the South Wales - Paddington OAO request is slightly more complicated to, is it not, with the fact that its the Welsh Assembly that sets the Welsh train service requirements (I could be completely off track there - I know of other threads on here dedicated to that particular application).

That issue aside, it still needs to pass the not-primarily abstractive test. And with GWR now running non stop Bristol parkway - Paddington, I don't know how that would affect the test.
But in principle, being able to travel from the depths of South Wales (well, a couple more stations than currently) into the capital (of England) is something GWR aren't currently wishing to provide (given they have other priorities on go).

I think OAs are currently just providing the opportunity to make an existing journey, slightly quicker and without interchange, which thier 'native' operators aren't able to provide without major investment (stock / crew / management et Al).
They are just 'infilling' where they have seen a potential gap in the current franchise owned market.
They could be incorporated into the existing franchise, with the required investment, but aren't.

Someone will always be reaping the benefits of supplying the OAs operation, regardless of the operator. And they supliment what is already being providing, providing a little inertia sometimes to drive upgrades and new routes from within the current franchisee.

That has to be a good thing, if managed correctly and responsibility.

 

[route:oxford]

Yes. We all should be. I'd argue that tax should be properly collected as opposed to allowing profits to be sent offshore.

Hold on. You do realise that profits are generally quoted after tax?

Every major company follows the rules on taxation to the letter, and HMRC follow those rules to the letter too.

Are you saying you don't want private companies to make a profit at all?

Because when a company goes out to deliberately break even or make a loss, that can destroy competition and result in zero revenue for the Government.

 

[Bald Rick]

if a private company can offer a better service than a competitor be it private or public i cant see the problem
such competitions is what change and improvement, keep a monopoly and soon standard will drop for the same if not more cost

I agree, in principle, but it needs to be on a level playing field.

The current situation is akin to a new cafe opening right next door to a long established cafe, but the new one selling everything cheaper because the council is letting them off rent and rates whilst the old cafe pays full whack. Hardly fair.

 

[Purple Orange]

Hold on. You do realise that profits are generally quoted after tax?

Every major company follows the rules on taxation to the letter, and HMRC follow those rules to the letter too.

Are you saying you don't want private companies to make a profit at all?

Because when a company goes out to deliberately break even or make a loss, that can destroy competition and result in zero revenue for the Government.

Clearly you are not aware of accounting rules. Companies have their profits taxed, leading to a net profit. Ever heard of EBITDA? And how transfer pricing can be used to profits earned in one jurisdiction to another that has more favourable tax rules? I'm not saying it is illegal. Nor is it moral.

 

[Iskra]

I agree, in principle, but it needs to be on a level playing field.

The current situation is akin to a new cafe opening right next door to a long established cafe, but the new one selling everything cheaper because the council is letting them off rent and rates whilst the old cafe pays full whack. Hardly fair.

It could be argued that it's better than an empty shop and creates employment. Employees pay tax, council tax and may spend in the area. The cafe may drive additional footfall, bring a different type of clientele or increase council parking revenue.

There are situations like this all over the high street right now, where one company is paying loads more than an other that has gone through a CVA, or recently renegotiated rent while another is locked in a lengthy contract agreed when the times were good. TOC's know the rules of the game before they choose to bid.

 

[popeter45]

I agree, in principle, but it needs to be on a level playing field.

The current situation is akin to a new cafe opening right next door to a long established cafe, but the new one selling everything cheaper because the council is letting them off rent and rates whilst the old cafe pays full whack. Hardly fair.

fair point

if the William review leads to a concession BR-Lite hope they keep the door open for OA by letting then pay track access to run routes

 

[Iskra]

Clearly you are not aware of accounting rules. Companies have their profits taxed, leading to a net profit. Ever heard of EBITDA? And how transfer pricing can be used to profits earned in one jurisdiction to another that has more favourable tax rules? I'm not saying it is illegal. Nor is it moral.

Idealism, again. There are plenty of companies that trade in the UK and cleverly 'buy' consulting services from a foreign registered parent company. This means they don't make a profit in the UK (and therefore don't pay UK tax). Conveniently the parent companies are registered in tax havens.

 

[Purple Orange]

Then you went of on a bizarre and desperate bluster filled tangent claiming my nephew's cousin's inter-island daily trip on a Loganair service to school was identical to a transatlantic flight between London and New York

They aren't the same thing. Loganair are providing essential domestic travel. No different from Scotrail between Linlithgow and Waverley.

So.

If you're demanding rail services should be nationalised for the public good, why shouldn't all bus, coach, ferry and airline service be nationalised for the public good too?

I've said airlines don't need to be nationalised but some routes perhaps should to protect them. Buses should too - I've said that. I'be not got a particular view on the ferries.

Why are you getting so angry over a debate over privatisation? You should ask why you are so keen to have public services run at the beck and call of private companies.

Are you in favour of privatising NHS services more than they are?

 

[Ianno87]

My personal opinions:

Open access cowboys are a bunch of cherry-picking parasites. Get rid.

I want a publicly owned railway providing a public service for the public good.

So bye bye London services from Hull, Sunderland and Bradford then. And goodbye fares competition from York, Doncaster etc. Interesting definition of "the public good" that was not serving these places before (to nearly the same level of regularity).

 

[Purple Orange]

Idealism, again. There are plenty of companies that trade in the UK and cleverly 'buy' consulting services from a foreign registered parent company. This means they don't make a profit in the UK (and therefore don't pay UK tax). Conveniently the parent companies are registered in tax havens.

And that is morally wrong. End of.

 

[Iskra]

And that is morally wrong. End of.

But it's rife and has been for a long time, yet it's still going on. Very hard to doing anything about it without driving business and investment away...

 

[devonexpress]

The airline industry can’t compare with rail or buses because it generally people do not rely on it for every day use. You have anecdotally cited your cousin and nephew, but following the demise of Flybe, there was a debate about nationalising air routes that communities rely upon. Heathrow to New York is not a service communities rely upon every day.

No but Isle of Man to Liverpool or Manchester are, London to Dublin is. Alderney to Guersey is. Loganair Westray to PapaWestray is a vital link, Newquay to London is so vital it's given a subsiday by the government. Therefore your comment doesn't stand any merit.