Social Distancing and Non Urban Bus Capacity

[F Great Eastern]

So as we know there will shortly be social distancing imposed on vehicles but there seems to be little to no plans as to how operators are supposed to be able to provide enough capacity to serve the public that need to travel to work unless grants are provided.

For example in East Anglia we would have many buses that would be fairly long routes that would serve a number of Towns and villages on the way who would depend on such vehicles to get to work. Many of the places served would not have the option of cycling or walking due to distances involved. How are people at intermediate towns and villages going to be able to get to work if the buses are already full?

You would get some routes where maybe 3 double deckers carrying 60-70 people on a regular basis in morning peak would be replaced by three services that can only carry for example 17 people each. Now of course demand is going to be down, but still there is a problem with transporting even these numbers when you go from a service that has capacity for 200 people in morning peak to 51 people. And then that's before you get to evening peak and people being turned away from the last bus as they got in the queue late and having to take an unsafe taxi at great cost.

I have heard murmurings that the bus companies are going to be asked to provide extra services. But who is going to pay for them? To carry 100 people (half normal demand) at morning peak a bus company will need to factor in the costs of 6 buses and 6 drivers instead of 3 buses and 3 drivers and also factor in the fact the amount of revenue it gets will also be cut in half.

Without government support many of these smaller independent companies who have already saw their revenue streams of coach and bus hire, school contracts, holidays, excursions, day trips and sports team hire cut off are going to collapse and also without the bus companies or extra services many of the public won't be able to get to work but will be forced into poverty by taking unsafe taxis if they are forced off furlough.

 

[WM Bus]

You would get some routes where maybe 3 double deckers carrying 60-70 people on a regular basis in morning peak would be replaced by three services that can only carry for example 14 people each.

How many would a full size single decker be able to carry in that case?
And if buses become too full is this going to be enforced?

 

[F Great Eastern]

How many would a full size single decker be able to carry in that case?
And if buses become too full is this going to be enforced?

Sorry, I was typing from phone and meant to say 17 - will correct post.

It's hard to say that it will go above 10 on a single decker. The good thing about a double decker is you don't need to worry about doors and driver distance like you do on a bottom deck, even if you have stairs.

I wonder if it's going to be enforced, but a number of operators are already blocking seats off even before this announcement. All publicly funded transport in Ireland also is enforcing this.

It did seem the Government were going to require operators to enforce social distancing but it seems more ambigious now.

 

[WM Bus]

I wonder if it's going to be enforced, but a number of operators are already blocking seats off even before this announcement.

They're only blocked off by the drivers area I believe, at least they are on the ones i've seen and I think that's to protect the driver. I haven't see any where they've blocked off something like every other row of seats.

And while it might be advised for people to stay 2 metres apart, I don't think thats being enforced at present as I saw a (Birmingham) 55 service go past me earlier and there were clearly people sat on the row of seats directly infront of other people.

I'd also wander how certain people would respond to being told they couldn't get on? Particularly if it happened to be the last 55 service of the day at 00:00, which could be very late at night, with the next one not for 4 or 5 hours till 04:30 in the mroning.

 

[F Great Eastern]

They're only blocked off by the drivers area I believe on the ones i've seen and I think thats to protect the drvier. I haven't see any where they've blocked off something like every other row of seats.

And while it might be advised for people to stay 2 metres apart, I don't think thats being enforced at present as I saw a (Birmingham) 55 service go past me earlier and there were clearly people sat on the row of seats directly infront of other people.

I'd also wander how certain people would respond to being told they couldn't get on? Particularly if it happened to be the 00:00 55 and the next one isn't till 04:30 in the morning.

I'm talking about non urban buses here, so mostly rural to urban or rural buses. It's very different to your urban bus service to a big city. like Birmingham with fairly high frequency.

In these kind of buses you might transport say 200 people in morning peak in one direction and a similar number in the opposite direction in the evening with little usage other than free travel pass and concessionary passes in the middle.

I think most people would love it if their buses ran as late as midnight and as early as 4.30, but the reality is that in East Anglia in parts of Suffolk and Norfolk, your first bus will be around 7am and last bus back about 7pm with 30/60 minute frequency at best.

I've already seen some local buses implementing social distancing and also some of the bigger groups are expected to start doing it on Tuesday and Wednesday. A direction has already gone out to several First Opcos do to this with West of England rolling it out tonight.

The only answer is for the government to issue grants. You can't expect commercial operators used to taking the revenue of almost 200 passengers on 3 buses for example in morning and evening peak, to suddenly have their revenue cut in half and them having to increase their operating costs by more than double. It will be the death of many long established independents.

 

[WM Bus]

I'm talking about non urban buses here, so mostly rural to urban or rural buses. It's very different to your urban bus service to a big city. like Birmingham with fairly high frequency.

In these kind of buses you might transport say 200 people in morning peak in one direction and a similar number in the opposite direction in the evening with little usage other than free travel pass and concessionary passes in the middle.

Birmingham services also in normal times carry hundreds of people into the City Centre during the rush hour some people travelling several miles. Though that is under normal circumstances - with non essential businesses still closed, I would expect the numbers would have fallen dramatically. And so as a result Birmingham services are operating less often. Would it be any different in non urban areas?

The problem would be if these non essential businesses, etc reopen at some point. Then there will be way more people using public transport I think - will there be enough capacity to allow for social distancing?
I heard the Government going on about cycling and walking, but how many people are going to be up for doing that come the winter in November/December, or walking vast distances when they are commuting several miles, particularly from the outer suburbs of the City. From Ward End it would take me about an hour and 20 minutes to walk to the City Centre, whereas if I was to take the bus it only takes 15 minutes.

Though at present if you were only going a short distance 4 stops for example, I think it'd be reasonable to ask to consider alternatives such as walking. And if they live just outside of the City Centre, rather then catching the bus.

 

[F Great Eastern]

circumstances - with non essential businesses still closed, I would expect the numbers would have fallen dramatically. And so as a result Birmingham services are operating less often. Would it be any different in non urban areas?

The problem would be if these non essential businesses, etc reopen at some point. Then there will be way more people using public transport I think - will there be enough capacity to allow for social distancing?
I heard the Government going on about cycling and walking, but how many people are going to be up for doing that come the winter in November/December, or walking vast distances when they are commuting several miles, paticularly from the outer suburbs of the City.

Massively different.

Some of these routes connecting larger towns with small towns in Suffolk, Norfolk or Essex would be 15 to 20 miles long and for 95% of the trips on these services there would be no other public transport options and would be served by one route only whereas those in a city or close to a city would have a number of routes from various places calling at their area on the way to the city centre.

Some of these routes in East Anglia would take very very little short distance passengers and instead be taking people long distances that are way too far to walk or cycle from. In addition some would have traffic generators that would not be close to the outer terminus either. Some of these are operated by big groups but others would be operated by independents who also may have lost a large amount of revenue from school contracts, private and contract bus and coach hire and excursion programs for example.

I've spoke to someone working in an operator serving rural areas in Norfolk who is extremely frustrated that Government don't seem to understand how rural to urban or rural bus services work. They are obsessed by talking about cities and how buses work in them and applying the same theory and model to them and are not listening to the operators who tell them that it's comparing apples with oranges.

Many people are going to be getting back to work in the coming days and weeks and this matter needs addressing, talking about walking, cycling and big city buses doesn't help people in a rural town of 10,000 - 15,000 people who are trying to get to a larger town such as Ipswich or Bury St Edmunds or even the more rural parts of Norfolk to Norwich.

Operators whose peak services consisted of carrying 3 double decker loads of people in the morning and the evening cannot survive on having to run for example 7 double deckers in the morning and the evening on the same route whilst bringing in half the amount of revenue that they were previously. The operators will run out of cash very quickly.

 

[darloscott]

The announcement on all of this - making bus & coach services “Covid secure” is coming tomorrow so we’ll know more after then. Certainly we appear to be working back towards a full network being operated, obviously with huge revenue support like the rail network has had.

 

[overthewater]

Bigger Question will be, will every company come back ?

 

[darloscott]

To be honest the only ones that have struggled have been the companies that don’t have any regular (or very little) contract income and rely on tours. Those running bus services have found their work paid for so they’re not losing money at current service levels while those coach operators running schools etc (my company do) have been paid right through this to keep the industry going.
I think it shows you need a variety of work to survive rather than all eggs in one basket.

 

[Geordie driver]

Companies don't have numerous spare buses and drivers to provide these extra duplicates. You pull up at a busy stop and loads of people try and get on, who is going to back the driver up if he refused travel? Company officials? The police?

Bus drivers and security guards already are amongst the highest death rates per 100 000, no one seems to care.

 

[F Great Eastern]

To be honest the only ones that have struggled have been the companies that don’t have any regular (or very little) contract income and rely on tours. Those running bus services have found their work paid for so they’re not losing money at current service levels while those coach operators running schools etc (my company do) have been paid right through this to keep the industry going.
I think it shows you need a variety of work to survive rather than all eggs in one basket.

I know of several smaller and independent companies who in the East of England rely on a mixture of commercial services, school contracts, private hires and in many cases also excursions, tours and the idea that they are doing well in this time is fanciful at best.

They have seen massive reductions in several revenue streams and social distancing will mean a stark choice of running no extra services and leaving masses of people behind at peak times and losing money or providing extra services and face the real risk of going to the wall.

There are also companies who are leasing vehicles who the lessors are worried about since they feel there is a real worry that that operators may not be able to service their payments going forward.

Companies don't have numerous spare buses and drivers to provide these extra duplicates. You pull up at a busy stop and loads of people try and get on, who is going to back the driver up if he refused travel? Company officials? The police?

Even for the companies who can run extra vehicles because they have less school and contract work, to provide half the amount of capacity pre-covid at peak times and enforce social distancing a bus operator is going to see it's revenues decline by 50% and it's costs rise by more than double in many cases. That's heavy losses every day for businesses who are already struggling.

 

[Robertj21a]

As with the Tubes etc, the answer will most probably be that passengers should wear masks/scarves. It's not perfect, but it's about the only likely solution.

 

[Non Multi]

Being in a dormitory Buckinghamshire village by the A4, the buses (First Berks, Thames Valley/Courtney, Red Eagle) during lockdown were either empty, or with only 1 or 2 aboard (usually all with face coverings). The PM's message not to use public transport if at all possible should mean that just those with no other options available will board.

The local bus services here mainly cater for workers at or around Heathrow, so huge job losses in aviation will impact local operators.

 

[darloscott]

I know of several smaller and independent companies who in the East of England rely on a mixture of commercial services, school contracts, private hires and in many cases also excursions, tours and the idea that they are doing well in this time is fanciful at best.

They have seen massive reductions in several revenue streams and social distancing will mean a stark choice of running no extra services and leaving masses of people behind at peak times and losing money or providing extra services and face the real risk of going to the wall.

There are also companies who are leasing vehicles who the lessors are worried about since they feel there is a real worry that that operators may not be able to service their payments going forward.

I didn't say they would be doing well, just surviving. My company have already said they don't expect to make a profit this year, just about break even. We don't run any commercial services though so haven't had any bus services to keep us going - so all drivers have been on furlough for the last 8 weeks, bar one school contract & supermarket bus still running. We're surviving on income from school contracts alone.

Distancing will make a huge difference to everyone's operations of course, but running bus services to normal schedules will spread the amounts currently travelling over more and more services to keep the average loading down. Of course this will have to be done with large amounts of revenue support, even more than they get now - BSOG was increased to around £1/mile to help sustain services.

As for school & college services going forward - who knows what will happen?

 

[Typhoon]

In these kind of buses you might transport say 200 people in morning peak in one direction and a similar number in the opposite direction in the evening with little usage other than free travel pass and concessionary passes in the middle.

I suppose a lot might depend on whether employers are willing (or able) to stagger work start/ end times as the government request/ hope.

It might also be the time to think about restoring the ENCTS pass to its former time range to limit travel in the morning peak. (I won't go further, different thread.)

 

[duncombec]

Companies don't have numerous spare buses and drivers to provide these extra duplicates. You pull up at a busy stop and loads of people try and get on, who is going to back the driver up if he refused travel? Company officials? The police?

Some companies do, though, through the SORN and furlough schemes. Even if not used on commercial services, it should be possible - at least in theory - for local councils to make short term arrangements to allow for duplicates from other companies if the passenger loads determine it should be necessary - and let's not forget that at the moment, only very few additional workers should be using public transport, as shops are still not open, and thus associated retail worker travel will not have kicked in yet. If one local council here can make arrangements for bus routes serving hospitals that do not usually run on Sundays to do so, it should not be beyond the realms of possibility to ask National Company 1 to provide a bus and driver on a short term contract to assist Independent Operator 2 (especially given there has been little to no reduction of tendered services in this area, meaning some now run more frequently, if not as frequently, as commercial services that used to run 6 buses an hour!).

It is surely down to the individual driver how much effort he or she makes to enforce social distancing on their bus, just as it is supermarket workers. It certainly isn't the manager on the door of my local supermarket dictating entry policy and who would be first in line were anyone to kick off.

Bus drivers and security guards already are amongst the highest death rates per 100 000, no one seems to care.

Might I respectfully suggest that may have its cause in the fact that a lot of drivers fall within the groups most susceptible to Covid, i.e. generally male, generally older and certainly in a good few cases, with additional issues (including - and I don't say this suggesting it affects every driver, but a number of drivers have said to me that they notice an increase in weight after taking up the job - obesity)? I doubt very much it is a case that "nobody cares", and indeed we have seen bus drivers (amongst others) included in the key worker claps (which I seem to recall was criticized by certain people here?).

 

[duncombec]

They have seen massive reductions in several revenue streams and social distancing will mean a stark choice of running no extra services and leaving masses of people behind at peak times and losing money or providing extra services and face the real risk of going to the wall.

No company should be seeing massive increases in passengers until at least 4 June, given the only change to restrictions at present is for workers who cannot otherwise work from home (e.g. construction workers). In those rural areas, I imagine most people this will affect will already be driving, as it seems, to use your own words, somewhat "fanciful" for a builder, or similar position, to be relying on a service of hourly or less for his daily transport. Whilst there may be issues after 4 June, companies will have had ample time by this point to make a start, and in any case, it is still unlikely that there will be anything like the existing volume of traffic for quite some time yet. As I posted in my previous reply, it should also not be beyond the realms of capability for the local authority (presumably Norfolk and/or Suffolk here) to run a short-term contract with First as a peak hour duplicate. We keep being told these are novel times, it is time for bus companies and local authorities to consider novel solutions.

 

[Geordie driver]

Some companies do, though, through the SORN and furlough schemes. Even if not used on commercial services, it should be possible - at least in theory - for local councils to make short term arrangements to allow for duplicates from other companies if the passenger loads determine it should be necessary - and let's not forget that at the moment, only very few additional workers should be using public transport, as shops are still not open, and thus associated retail worker travel will not have kicked in yet. If one local council here can make arrangements for bus routes serving hospitals that do not usually run on Sundays to do so, it should not be beyond the realms of possibility to ask National Company 1 to provide a bus and driver on a short term contract to assist Independent Operator 2 (especially given there has been little to no reduction of tendered services in this area, meaning some now run more frequently, if not as frequently, as commercial services that used to run 6 buses an hour!).

It is surely down to the individual driver how much effort he or she makes to enforce social distancing on their bus, just as it is supermarket workers. It certainly isn't the manager on the door of my local supermarket dictating entry policy and who would be first in line were anyone to kick off.



Might I respectfully suggest that may have its cause in the fact that a lot of drivers fall within the groups most susceptible to Covid, i.e. generally male, generally older and certainly in a good few cases, with additional issues (including - and I don't say this suggesting it affects every driver, but a number of drivers have said to me that they notice an increase in weight after taking up the job - obesity)? I doubt very much it is a case that "nobody cares", and indeed we have seen bus drivers (amongst others) included in the key worker claps (which I seem to recall was criticized by certain people here?).

The drivers that have been furloughed and the buses sorned are the ones that would have been used to provide the 3 vehicles moving the 200 passengers in the OPs scenario, longish distances that hardly anyone would be prepared to walk or cycle. Even with only 50% travelling that will require double the vehicles and drivers, there is no huge pool of buses and drivers to cover this nationwide. Shops most certainly are open, anywhere that sells food is open.

Those 3 deckers will carry about 50 people. The driver has a responsibly to run his vehicle according to the law, companies and the govt. are mad keen on this when it suits them. Driver has one passenger over the limit and asks them to get off, who is going to support them? Is he meant to get out of the cab?Look at the buses and corona virus thread.

Might I respectfully suggest that, since bus drivers are in a high risk group, they should be given greater support and protection? Hence why I said no one cares, I meant those with the power to support them, not the Thursday night happy clappers.

As for clapping like a seal on a Thursday, at least the seal has the sense to know he will get a fish for it, it's embarrassing.

For what it's worth I worked 20 years as a bus driver and a bit less Frontline NHS. I don't clap and still know many in the NHS and bus industry who don't.

Oddly enough they would rather have ppe and decent support and protection.

 

[WM Bus]

The drivers that have been furloughed and the buses sorned are the ones that would have been used to provide the 3 vehicles moving the 200 passengers in the OPs scenario, longish distances that hardly anyone would be prepared to walk or cycle. Even with only 50% travelling that will require double the vehicles and drivers, there is no huge pool of buses and drivers to cover this nationwide. Shops most certainly are open, anywhere that sells food is open.

Would there even be 50% of people travelling at the minute? As my local buses are running at significantly reduced frequencies and none of them have more than about 15 people on them. Supermarkets and some shops, etc are open, but they've been open for the past few weeks and services seem to be coping fine? I can't see why there would be a massive increase in travellers as there hasn't been a massive change other than construction sites/Jaguar Land Rover plant seemingly as well will be reopening.

While there are some shops open, the majority of shops in Birmingham City Centre are closed at present. A lot of the ones closed would be clothing shops, restaurants, book shops, etc I expect. Places that are non essential services basically, though I think in normal times retail workers and the public do travel to these places on buses as well.

If there was a vehicle shortage of buses nationwide, in the short term if anymore vehicles are required what about reinstating coaches that used to be used for leisure purposes travel and using them to help local bus services if that was needed?

 

[DunsBus]

The drivers that have been furloughed and the buses sorned are the ones that would have been used to provide the 3 vehicles moving the 200 passengers in the OPs scenario, longish distances that hardly anyone would be prepared to walk or cycle. Even with only 50% travelling that will require double the vehicles and drivers, there is no huge pool of buses and drivers to cover this nationwide. Shops most certainly are open, anywhere that sells food is open.

Those 3 deckers will carry about 50 people. The driver has a responsibly to run his vehicle according to the law, companies and the govt. are mad keen on this WHEN IT SUITS THEM. Driver has one passenger over the limit and asks them to get off, who is going to support them? Is he meant to get out of the cab?Look at the buses and corona virus thread.

Might I respectfully suggest that, since bus drivers are in a high risk group, they should be given greater support and protection? Hence why I said no one cares, I meant those with the power to support them, not the Thursday night happy clappers.

As for clapping like a seal on a Thursday, at least the seal has the sense to know he will get a fish for it, it's embarrassing.

For what it's worth j worked 20 years as a bus driver and a bit less Frontline NHS. I don't clap and still know many in the NHS and bus industry who don't.

Oddly enough they would rather have ppe and decent support and protection.

The clapping is also a cop-out. I don't clap for the war dead every Remembrance Sunday.

 

[duncombec]

The drivers that have been furloughed and the buses sorned are the ones that would have been used to provide the 3 vehicles moving the 200 passengers in the OPs scenario, longish distances that hardly anyone would be prepared to walk or cycle. Even with only 50% travelling that will require double the vehicles and drivers, there is no huge pool of buses and drivers to cover this nationwide. Shops most certainly are open, anywhere that sells food is open.

- It would be fairly simple to un-SORN and un-furlough the drivers as part of a phased return to normal service. Some companies managed to introduce reductions in 4 days. It seems eminently plausible they could do some reintroductions with three weeks notice. Given passenger numbers are currently 90-95% down, one double-decker would suffice. It will be come clear in the coming weeks how many people are prepared to use the bus, but I doubt it will be up to 50%, given offices and the majority of shops will still be closed. I worked my example on the basis of a gradual reintroduction of services, not a return to 100% PVR, therefore drivers and vehicles will be available to run duplicates. I also suggested authorities attempt to support operators by using other operators who do have spare capacity to assist in the short term. Even if that isn't necessary or possible, some operators will still have spare capacity from school services not currently operating, or where peak journeys have been withdrawn from services. The two major operators here could probably lduplicate every independent service in the county at the moment with a vehicle currently SORN-ed and still have some to spare.

- Yes, some shops are open, but the majority are closed. In my local shopping centre last week, only three were open (Sainsbury's, Wilko, Boots), although I admit I didn't check Superdrug. The remaining 62 (bookshops, cafes, card shops, phone shops, Poundland, etc.) were all closed, as were all but one of the small stands (the one that was open was a greengrocers). This is unlikely to change very much until at least 4 June, by which time one would presume a plan would be in place. We are also going to be unable to reopen these locations without a reduction in the 2m guideline anyway, therefore in theory, nominal capacity should increase as the alert level drops and more things reopen.

Those 3 deckers will carry about 50 people. The driver has a responsibly to run his vehicle according to the law, companies and the govt. are mad keen on this WHEN IT SUITS THEM. Driver has one passenger over the limit and asks them to get off, who is going to support them? Is he meant to get out of the cab?Look at the buses and corona virus thread.

- There is no need to shout.

- What "limit"? Social distancing guidelines for transport have not, as far as I am aware, been transposed into law. It would be unreasonable for anyone to expect a driver to interrogate each passenger, especially now you can meet someone from outside of your own house. The driver is no more likely to ask them to get off than a supermarket is to question whether two teenagers are part of the same family or met each other at the other end of the car park. It is quite different for a driver to be "found" carrying 18 passengers when distancing guidelines suggest he should only be carrying 17, to one carrying 84 schoolkids when the vehicle is only licensed to carry 70.

Might I respectfully suggest that, since bus drivers are in a high risk group, they should be given greater support and protection? Hence why I said no one cares, I meant those with the power to support them, not the Thursday night happy clappers.

- What greater support and protection are you thinking of? Who should give it to them? It's very easy to say they need "it", but what, how, and from whom? My local (national) company has ensured all buses in service have screens, and the seats nearest the driver have been cordoned off. No change is given if you pay by cash, and contactless has been heavily promoted, to the point cash is only accepted in "exceptional circumstances". Travel is being actively discouraged by the government, the council and the operator(s). Do you have examples where this is not the case? I hope I am not mis-quoting the First Kernow thread if I say recall the post there that some drivers there have chosen to avoid the extra protection. Perhaps some who are actually current bus drivers would, if they feel comfortable, give us a clue as to what their company is doing for them, or what support they might like that they aren't getting?

As for clapping like a seal on a Thursday, at least the seal has the sense to know he will get a fish for it, it's embarrassing.

For what it's worth j worked 20 years as a bus driver and a bit less Frontline NHS. I don't clap and still know many in the NHS and bus industry who don't.

In your opinion. I know of people in both the NHS and the bus industry who have both views. Some feel the appreciation often not given, others share your opinion. Out of interest, in what order did you do the two jobs? It would help date your experiences.

Oddly enough they would rather have ppe and decent support and protection.

- I'm quite sure they would. However, the majority are quite capable of realising this cannot be offered by the public at large, and some find the appreciation welcome, others find it embarrassing because they consider they are just doing their job, others are just grumpy.

The clapping is also a cop-out. I don't clap for the war dead every Remembrance Sunday.

I should hope you don't.

It's also worth noting Berlin has returned to a 100% non-schoolday service, although passengers must wear a mask.

 

[overthewater]

It's also worth noting Berlin has returned to a 100% non-schoolday service, although passengers must wear a mask.

Of course Germany is out of lockdown unlike us. I do believe we will be heading for full 100% non-schoolday service, in August.

 

[Eyersey468]

The management at my employer have said they don't expect drivers to enforce the 2 metre distance, all we have been told is report it if we get more than about 30-35 passengers and they will put duplicates on.

 

[Geordie driver]

- It would be fairly simple to un-SORN and un-furlough the drivers as part of a phased return to normal service. Some companies managed to introduce reductions in 4 days. It seems eminently plausible they could do some reintroductions with three weeks notice. Given passenger numbers are currently 90-95% down, one double-decker would suffice. It will be come clear in the coming weeks how many people are prepared to use the bus, but I doubt it will be up to 50%, given offices and the majority of shops will still be closed. I worked my example on the basis of a gradual reintroduction of services, not a return to 100% PVR, therefore drivers and vehicles will be available to run duplicates. I also suggested authorities attempt to support operators by using other operators who do have spare capacity to assist in the short term. Even if that isn't necessary or possible, some operators will still have spare capacity from school services not currently operating, or where peak journeys have been withdrawn from services. The two major operators here could probably lduplicate every independent service in the county at the moment with a vehicle currently SORN-ed and still have some to spare.

- Yes, some shops are open, but the majority are closed. In my local shopping centre last week, only three were open (Sainsbury's, Wilko, Boots), although I admit I didn't check Superdrug. The remaining 62 (bookshops, cafes, card shops, phone shops, Poundland, etc.) were all closed, as were all but one of the small stands (the one that was open was a greengrocers). This is unlikely to change very much until at least 4 June, by which time one would presume a plan would be in place. We are also going to be unable to reopen these locations without a reduction in the 2m guideline anyway, therefore in theory, nominal capacity should increase as the alert level drops and more things reopen.



- There is no need to shout.

- What "limit"? Social distancing guidelines for transport have not, as far as I am aware, been transposed into law. It would be unreasonable for anyone to expect a driver to interrogate each passenger, especially now you can meet someone from outside of your own house. The driver is no more likely to ask them to get off than a supermarket is to question whether two teenagers are part of the same family or met each other at the other end of the car park. It is quite different for a driver to be "found" carrying 18 passengers when distancing guidelines suggest he should only be carrying 17, to one carrying 84 schoolkids when the vehicle is only licensed to carry 70.



- What greater support and protection are you thinking of? Who should give it to them? It's very easy to say they need "it", but what, how, and from whom? My local (national) company has ensured all buses in service have screens, and the seats nearest the driver have been cordoned off. No change is given if you pay by cash, and contactless has been heavily promoted, to the point cash is only accepted in "exceptional circumstances". Travel is being actively discouraged by the government, the council and the operator(s). Do you have examples where this is not the case? I hope I am not mis-quoting the First Kernow thread if I say recall the post there that some drivers there have chosen to avoid the extra protection. Perhaps some who are actually current bus drivers would, if they feel comfortable, give us a clue as to what their company is doing for them, or what support they might like that they aren't getting?



In your opinion. I know of people in both the NHS and the bus industry who have both views. Some feel the appreciation often not given, others share your opinion. Out of interest, in what order did you do the two jobs? It would help date your experiences.



- I'm quite sure they would. However, the majority are quite capable of realising this cannot be offered by the public at large, and some find the appreciation welcome, others find it embarrassing because they consider they are just doing their job, others are just grumpy.



I should hope you don't.

It's also worth noting Berlin has returned to a 100% non-schoolday service, although passengers must wear a mask.

Have you ever driven a bus in service or worked in the industry in any capacity?

 

[CN04NRJ]

Might I respectfully suggest that may have its cause in the fact that a lot of drivers fall within the groups most susceptible to Covid, i.e. generally male, generally older and certainly in a good few cases, with additional issues (including - and I don't say this suggesting it affects every driver, but a number of drivers have said to me that they notice an increase in weight after taking up the job - obesity)? I doubt very much it is a case that "nobody cares", and indeed we have seen bus drivers (amongst others) included in the key worker claps (which I seem to recall was criticized by certain people here?).

That's a gross oversimplification and borderline offensive, to suggest that bus drivers are not victims of working on the 'front line' (often without adequate protection) but are victims of their own obesity... well, i'm not sure what to say to that. Thankfully i'd say the majority of people don't share your opinion on this.

- It would be fairly simple to un-SORN and un-furlough the drivers as part of a phased return to normal service.

No, it's really not that simple. Buses that have been out of use for several months now require servicing, may require MOTs and any other work needed to bring them up to standard to return to service. Some companies have *hundreds* of vehicles off the road with most of their engineering staff furloughed - tell me how it's simple?

 

[duncombec]

The management at my employer have said they don't expect drivers to enforce the 2 metre distance, all we have been told is report it if we get more than about 30-35 passengers and they will put duplicates on.

Thanks for a front-line view. Was that for all vehicles, or double-deckers (as obviously the ease of social-distancing will be greater on a DD).

Indeed, the policing guidelines issued today explicitly say they do not consider social distancing to be enforceable: https://www.college.police.uk/What-...lations-Amendments-England-changes-130520.pdf.

 

[duncombec]

Have you ever driven a bus in service or worked in the industry in any capacity?

Not personally, no, but I have friends and acquaintances who do currently (and who do not share your opinions), and have had family members in the past.

However, that shouldn't stop you answering my questions, such as when your experiences were, or what additional support/equipment you think is necessary, and who should provide it, or indeed for examples where drivers feel this is not the case.

 

[Eyersey468]

Thanks for a front-line view. Was that for all vehicles, or double-deckers (as obviously the ease of social-distancing will be greater on a DD).

Indeed, the policing guidelines issued today explicitly say they do not consider social distancing to be enforceable: https://www.college.police.uk/What-...lations-Amendments-England-changes-130520.pdf.

I've interpreted it to mean all vehicles, though most of our single deckers are delicenced at the moment.

 

[Eyersey468]

That's a gross oversimplification and borderline offensive, to suggest that bus drivers are not victims of working on the 'front line' (often without adequate protection) but are victims of their own obesity... well, i'm not sure what to say to that. Thankfully i'd say the majority of people don't share your opinion on this.



No, it's really not that simple. Buses that have been out of use for several months now require servicing, may require MOTs and any other work needed to bring them up to standard to return to service. Some companies have *hundreds* of vehicles off the road with most of their engineering staff furloughed - tell me how it's simple?

We currently have about 150 buses and coaches delicenced which will all need inspections etc before returning to service, at least a months worth of work.